My big concern is that people will come to see speculation in nodecoin to be more important to them than the value of NXT itself. If this happens, we are screwed. At that point NXT is just the fee required to access AE and make vast fortunes running up the price of nodecoin they buy directly with BTC. It is now in the speculator's interest to have/drive the exchange fee (NXT itself) as low as possible. What is the motivator in this scenario to have my big stake in NXT retain a high value instead of being driven down to a low value?
rickyjames, how would speculators drive the price of nxt down in this scenario? Wouldn't supply (finite and fixed) and demand (increasing) cause the price to go up? Reference the recent discussion here on driving the transaction fee down from 1 NXT to 0.1 or 0.01 NXT. That is an increase in "supply" of trading fee tokens by a factor of X10 vs. X100. Where was the pressure to keep NXT transaction fees UP? Fees are just another word for tax, people hate taxes, there will always be pressure to drive taxes down. Would you rather trade 1,000,000 nodecoin for 1 BTC on AE if the NXT fee was 1 NXT = $1 bought at Cryptsy, or the NXT fee was 0.01 NXT = 1 cent bought at Cryptsy? What is the motivation / market pressure to keep NXT at $1 each instead of 1 cent? I am starting to think that not only nodecoin but also AE itself is the enemy of keeping NXT as a store of value.... |
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Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?
Because skyNXT is self aware and knows how important your work is to its ultimate domination.... Seriously James started out with an idea to reward people running nodes so that they did not just rely on forging. All I see in the thread is downside and negativity, ok nodecoin is not perfect, but its not cancer, and if it is - lets hear the alternative? Do we still need to reward people who run nodes? Are we waiting for BCNext or his 12 or is it 21 disciples and the super nodes they will deploy to forge on and earn all the transaction fees from everyone else's handwork? The alternative is to get the price of running a node so cheap that nobody needs a reward to do it. What we are doing here is creating a pseudo-POW to make up for perceived weaknesses in PoS. If PoS is strong enough to stand on its own, then let it. If we try to go pseudo-PoW to be a motivator, then REAL PoW will ALWAYS be a better alternative and who needs NXT? |
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nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.
Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.
James
There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp. That's what we've got here. The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too). This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so. But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is. Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small. The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit. Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed. This is very noble and I am not cutting them down. But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system. Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT. There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket. So here's the bottom line question. If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT? It comes from the pockets of people who speculate in nodecoin. It is their BTC converted to NXT that they will be spending to support nodecoin, which supports NXT nodes. It is not a zerosum situation at all, when external money flows in and buys NXT to buy nodecoins My big concern is that people will come to see speculation in nodecoin to be more important to them than the value of NXT itself. If this happens, we are screwed. At that point NXT is just the fee required to access AE and make vast fortunes running up the price of nodecoin they buy directly with BTC. It is now in the speculator's interest to have/drive the exchange fee (NXT itself) as low as possible. What is the motivator in this scenario to have my big stake in NXT retain a high value instead of being driven down to a low value? |
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nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.
Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.
James
There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp. That's what we've got here. The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too). This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so. But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is. Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small. The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit. Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed. This is very noble and I am not cutting them down. But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system. Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT. There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket. So here's the bottom line question. If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT? |
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BCNext intended it not to be a coin to be used as currency (I think it is in the first or second part of his essay, rather than in his post history).
But you can't control how people will use it. So, sell it to them as a coin if you want, no one can stop you.
But the chances are, a better coin will be built of top of Nxt (to suit your needed use or world view of the creator). I doubt the value of the Nxts will be derived by its use as a currency in the future, more from how important it is in supporting more useful services.
I have a lot of respect for BCNext getting the ball rolling but HE HAS BAILED OUT OF THIS AIRPLANE THROUGH THE COCKPIT WINDOW. What his intentions were about not using NXT as a coin are now IRRELEVANT. And if we build a new coin into the NXT blockchain to be our primary unit of value as a coin (nodecoin?) then I truly believe we are going to kill NXT. NXT will be just a token used to buy access onto an exchange. There's money to be made in exchange fees. There's LOTS more money to be made being an asset. If we relegate ourselves to being an exchange fee token instead of a cryptocurrency asset, we are in big trouble. |
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They care about NXT as a coin/currency, not another stock market type system.
And besides the value of NXT as currency, they wouldn't see the advantages in buying, selling and trading assets while you have them in your pocket, not having to send them to more or less trusted third parties? Without being charged extra fees? Having the option to create your own assets for trading? Isn't all of that an added value? . What IS the value of NXT today as currency? What can you SPEND NXT on? We are less than four months old so we get something of a pass from people who assume we are setting up the ability to SPEND as a CURRENCY. That good will is going to fade and I think it is starting to fade now. Folks, don't blow LemonAndFries off as another emule - he is trying hard to point out a real weakness we have that we MUST address. |
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We shouldn't be looking at Nodecoins as a buy and sell commodity. We should be looking at Nodecoins as a Nxt Utility coin. For example. If you want to use the DAC, you have to send 10 Nodecoins to retrieve Doge address, then you can transfer Doge to DAC. If you want to use NxtCash for Mixing you have to send 10 Nodecoins to retrieve NxtCash address, then send Nxt for mixing....and so on. We have some really great features that will be built on top of Nxt and we should charge users Nodecoins to use those features. That will give them value.
But then you're basically inflating the currency and usurping value from Nxt as it should be the unit used for these purposes, no? These are roles that Nxt would take; doing so with nodecoin reduces Nxt's functions and in turn it's demand/value as opposed to nodecoin adding value on top of the system. I am not sure if there is any usurping going on. Using this logic, if we started trading BTC using NXT AE, then somehow this hurts NXT? I dont think that is what would happen. I think the value of NXT would be proportional to the sum of the values of all of the NXT AE assets plus the current value. So if nodecoins become worth something, then NXT becomes incrementally more valuable. Also, you are not taking into account the fact that without NXT, there is no nodecoin. This also seems to be what BCNext wanted from what I can remember. If people deposit $1 billion USD into NXT and we have that much USD assets floating around inside AE, would that suck all the value out of NXT?
If nodecoins became worth $1 USD each, would that suck all the value out of NXT?
This community doesn't award people for their work, there is no mining, forging wont give you shit, so this is a way for fairness to come into the picture. Who cares how BCNext wanted it? I have respect for him BUT ELVIS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING so it's our party now. Dumping a billion dollars of assets into an exchange doesn't make the exchange itself worth a billion dollars. You could trade a billion dollars of assets on AE after buying only 100NXT on Cryptsy at .000000000000001 BTC each once we hit the bottom of the list at coinmarketcap.com. I don't want to see this happen. If nodecoin is some kind of motivational sop to get people to set up nodes, FORGET IT AND DUMP IT NOW! NXT is a FINANCIAL EXPERIMENT with the PRIMARY GOAL of causing its most basic unit (the NXT) rise in value, not an attempt to achieve SOCIAL JUSTICE through creation of some SECONDARY ASSET. Yes, NXT is not get-rich-quick thru mining or forging. Stop trying to inject get-rich-quick aspects into it because we lack those now. |
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NXT is starting to become something that I AM NOT WILLING to have so much investment in.
NXT coin was my original investment, not a fucking exchange,
Don't tell me I don't get it, I perfectly understand what's going on.
This was supposed to be Cryptocoin 2.0 "DESCENDANT OF BITCOIN"
For crying fucksakes, even your thread title says it.
Are you all half-retarded? The coin concept will attract the mainstream into NXT, not a fucking asset exchange.
The asset exchange was supposed to be a feature of NXT, not NXT itself. Now all of you want to turn it into another of thousands of exhanges already available.
you clearly dont get it. there are no "thousands of exchanges" only 1 (counterparty). 1 more is coming (msc) and than NXT. but as afar as being a coin. i also am trying to get clarity on this. I would have wanted to see it as the fuel to any asset on the exchange with an ongoing need for it and thus demand.
This is CRITICAL. Mainstream adaptation (ie VOLUME) will come from use of NXT as a COIN. As in Joe Sixpack saying "what can I buy with this". We have so many smart people dealing with so many smart things what we are TOTALLY NEGLECTING the foundation we MUST have. Who is working on going around to EVERY SINGLE current Bitcoin vendors and asking / convincing them to take NXT too, and put NXT alongside Bitcoin in their declaration of accepting cryptocurrency? I want to do this, and intend to start doing this as soon as I get a few other NXT guerilla marketing covert ops I'm working on out of the way...but there should be a GROUP EFFORT on this area going NOW. |
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I agree with LemonAndFries and Uniqueorn in one thing at least: How many people is actively working on and developing NXT right now? Apart from CFB, Jean-Luc, James....? Where is the proof of "such a huge and nice community"?
It's worse than you think...CfB is leaving the building in a few weeks the first week of April, and James isn't working on the Java core of NXT, only Jean Luc is. I have PMed them about using Freelancer.com to bring on some paid fresh new Java talent but I have heard no response. Getting fresh new Java programming blood in here is critical. |
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I am trying to wrap my head around some of the developments here:
what will drive NXTcoin's value? if the asset exchange, though built on top of the nxt bloackchain will not be using NXTcoin as an internal mandatory token/coin with which one can conduct their business, and if nodecoins are derived from forging or for maintaining the network, so what is left for NXTcoin as an asset of exchange?
I can for example create a "NXT10" asset/coin on top of the NXT blockchain, pay 1000NXT for creating the asset in the first place and than denominate it with 10 0's after the decimal point and I go on to create my own market non related and with no need for NXT coin per se, just using the NXT network.
will forging than drive NXT value? not really because you still need to use NXT coin for something of economic value
where is the value proposition here as a NXT holder? if NXT is not a mandatory oil to the system (in other words one has to buy NXT and continue to for any action (like Etherium is planning for ETH), it seems that we are completely went away from a 1st generation coin functionality while we should be both.
I am not at all convinced nodecoin is a good idea. I recognize it is a cool technical accomplishment, which is a totally different thing. NXT has a real problem. We are all so smart here we forget that we are trying to be competitive in a dog-eat-dog cryptocurrency world that is catering to the masses who don't care about cool tech, they care about their own needs. What need does nodecoin solve FOR THEM? NOTHING. IT WILL CONFUSE THEM. Are they supposed to care about NXT? Nodecoin? their own coin they create and bloat up our blockchain with? THIS IS BRAND DILUTION FOR NXT AND BRAND DILUTION CAN BE FATAL. James, anybody, please state in one sentence set aside by itself as its own paragraph just what the purpose of nodecoin is. Folks, does this purpose help sell NXT to the average cryptocoin user? |
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Is it good or bad for Nxt? Definitely not good for NXT if it becomes popular. What people don't realize in this community is that popularity & community is the alpha and omega of success.
People actually think that if NXT (which is 100% open source) is good enough "technically" then the rest doesn't matter.There is no changes in hoarding, no changes in incentives, community is shrinking, price is falling etc. and nothing happens. These big hoarders have a collective IQ in double digits. We need to stop calling our daughtercoin "nodecoin" TODAY and call it something COOL. Coolcoin. Unicorncoin. Rainbowcoin. GoldNuggets. Charitycoin. Greencoin. GermanShepardCoin. CollieCoin. IceCreamBar. RainForestCoin. SOMETHING. COOL. NOT. TECHNO. Think POPULARITY and COMMUNITY. |
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Huh, instead of a code question you ask a science question about silver. At last I am in my element (if you'll pardon the pun)! First of all, something I ran across while researching this that is just plain cool: http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/shrinkergallery.htmlHere's somebody that talks about shrinkage while casting silver bullets: http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullet4.shtmlAs far as cast silver shrinkage goes, here's a few other references for you to consider. First, the shrinkage occurs in three stages: http://thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/metalcasting_operation.htmlAlso, the thermal coefficient of expansion for silver varies with temperature, from 18.9 at room temp to 27.1 at 1100 K. This says the first order approx for cubic vol expansion is roughly 3 times that which is 56.7 to 81.3 - in the range you were quoting: http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_3/2_3_5.htmlNext, this guy measured silver volume expansion in his lab setup in preparation for measuring a copper-iron alloy. He got 2.56% on cooling and 3.58% on heating, against a tabulated value of 3.4-3.8%. See pg 20 of the PDF, page 7 of the thesis: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diva-portal.org%2Fsmash%2Fget%2Fdiva2%3A218833%2FFULLTEXT01.pdf&ei=-AQhU_vTBsulkQeT4IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNFLhKymiTGSwBWr-prG1LsriM2udA&sig2=HEbEyhcf_FZMEzfRQqqPsQ&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0The book he lists as Ref 32 (the 1976 edition of Smithells Metals Reference Handbook) is here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fworldtracker.org%2Fmedia%2Flibrary%2FEngineering%2FMetallurgy%2FSmithells%2520Metals%2520Reference%2520Book%2520(7th%2520Edition).pdf&ei=gAchU9LyHdDSkQfRj4CoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGsZHjMhb-8NW473q7STxAsIM5raQ&sig2=3uvHS5OGsAXxnfkBCnIBQw&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0 |
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Let's call them Nxtcoins so that everybody will stop calling Nxt Nxtcoins
I actually was thinking that we should revisit our reluctance to call NXT by the name "NXTcoin". My understanding is that BTCNext was the one who specified "NXT" without a "coin" - but he's long gone. Rebranding to include "NXT" and "NXTcoin" as being associated / identical might be a good thing. NXT could refer to all the financial services we provide in our clients, using NXTcoin as an internal payment token. The main reason to do this is so new folks recognize that we ARE a coin. Whatever we end up calling Nxt is fine as long as we all do it. BTW. Does rickyjames' situation remind anybody of Emperor Palpatine? "It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy. I love the Republic. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me!" We all know how that went. Unfortunately as I am getting older the bags under my eyes are getting darker and darker just like his. Hmmmmm....... |
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None of the committees have made any public statement???
See how nice it was to have a blabbermouth dictator for two weeks? Nxt did well during those two weeks. I think our problem has been we needed a dictator until we were ready for the coming out party. Our lord Superman left us for Krypton to "find himself" and Nxt/Earth has been in disarray every since. Rickyjames dictated us to make committees and it worked. Maybe Superman will return after realizing there is nothing left of Krypton for him and that his home is on Earth/Nxt. BCNext please tell us what do??? Come back to us!!!!!! Baaaaa Baaaaa I like this line of thinking. I think it casts me in the role of Batman. I'm OK with that - I definitely have a dark side. |
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his last words were - we are waiting one week to collect any objections (like when voting code was also sent to Kattywampus, who is also CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel or to PeercoinEnthusiast, who is also CoinTropolis_JustaBitTime) (- but these voted once.)
PeercoinEnthusiast is also CoinTropolis_JustaBitTime? Huh. I did not know that. |
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Let's call them Nxtcoins so that everybody will stop calling Nxt Nxtcoins
I actually was thinking that we should revisit our reluctance to call NXT by the name "NXTcoin". My understanding is that BTCNext was the one who specified "NXT" without a "coin" - but he's long gone. Rebranding to include "NXT" and "NXTcoin" as being associated / identical might be a good thing. NXT could refer to all the financial services we provide in our clients, using NXTcoin as an internal payment token. The main reason to do this is so new folks recognize that we ARE a coin. |
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None of the committees have made any public statement???
See how nice it was to have a blabbermouth dictator for two weeks? |
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THIS IS ANOTHER REASON WHY WE HAVE LOST FOCUS!
Lock this thread and let's move to a new forum.
If we have a debate for something the whole thread get's derailed and you have the impression that NXT project is chaotic etc.
Having specialized topics like TF, Instant TXs, AT, AE etc will help a lot both progress and get rid of this feeling that progress is stalled, situation is fuzzy etc. that puts us in a negative feedback loop!
I agree with you.....I have realized the cons of staying on this thread now greatly exceed the benefits. If you want more topic related, focused threads, go ahead and start using them.... But leave this thread alone. I can understand if you need a work specific thread. But here is no cause to close this thread. Damelon gave a perfect analogy of this thread; This is the "Pub Thread". Closing the "Pub" is bad form. Actually, I lay claim to first calling this thread the "pub" thread... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4798054#msg4798054All we need is a dart board. Oh, wait... www.candystand.com/play/dartshttps://www.flyordie.com/darts/www.mousebreaker.com/games/dartsparty/playgame |
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If Bitcoins dies, is this the coin to be?  WHEN Bitcoin dies, yes, NXT is the coin to be. In. |
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We know that a weak password is the user's responsibility, but it's also true that the current base client is not user friendly in that sense, at all. Regardless, in this case, contacting @onemanatatime, finding the related blockchain information and trying to perhaps partially or fully compensate the leeching would be a VERY smart PR move. Edit: I just saw the amounts. 400K+. I'm sorry for him, but buying and transferring that amount without doing your homework is beyond reckless. I agree his actions are beyond reckless, but HIS ACTIONS ARE KILLING NXT. When one guy loses 20% of his portfolio on NXT due to poor password security and tweets it out to *** 2100 *** followers, WE JUST LOST 2100 PEOPLE WHO WON'T TOUCH NXT NOW. THIS IS A DISASTER. WE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS DISASTER IF WE HAD IMPLEMENTED INTEGRATED AUTOMATIC STRONG PASSWORD GENERATION IN ALL CLIENTS A MONTH AGO. ARE WE IN AGREEMENT TO IMPLEMENT IT ACROSS THE BOARD NOW? |
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