When you buy product and services you are selling gold

According to your own logic nobody should sell gold .

Effects

According to your own logic, free market can never happen because "freedom" gives ability to distort signal those signals ( for example speculation in general or HFT in particular )  or many more .

As you pointed out free market can never happen.

Still my question has not been answered

How freedom to trade with whatever techniques you want is not a "free market" policy ?

How freedom to trade with whatever techniques you want is not a "free market" policy ?

Reality sometimes is painful and i understand you may have some difficult time to adjust.

Making money everyday on markets is statistical improbability. Even the best day-traders have days on loses.

Free market is a code word for rigged market. Every empirical evidence suggest just that.

No one in his right mind promotes 'free market' so he exposes him-self to competition over basic resources needed to survive unless he is sure to win.

No you dont understand .

I guess if you had run successful company you would just wait for competition to emerge to get you and all your employees out of business instead of trying to regulate,manipulate and cartalize the market , and keep your profits, power and your own job.


It works to the point when someone withhold consumption for one or more cycles ( because he doesn't need to or want to and such a cases always happens ) and start hoarding money , then entire economy halts, thus infinite growth is required to offsets such an anomalies.

Cant put any more simple for you.



Again crystal ball.


How is me saying that since that oil consumption is unsustainable we should implement alternative technologies, is ignoring peak oil ?

Read my question again and answer it this time. I said objects already established on free market not people.



Yes pretty much it is , if money dont circulate you dont produce because, no one produce for free. Money have to change hands in order for transaction to be made and good to be produced.

If you cant comprehend such a simple concept i dont think there any point to our discussion until you understand it.


It is you who is assuming that they will , i only reach the conclusion based on data i have found out on-line while you are using "crystal ball" to predict the future.

Like prostitutes , yeah perhaps.



No, i blame profit driven economy ( which includes mystical free market ).


Sustainability is a key goal of RBE. If we consume more oil than it is being replenished we have to change our way . Lucky he have plenty of alternative technologies.


"What's the point of surveying all resources on earth if you can't know what people wants?"
It is obvious that if you want to manage your inventory in an efficient way you have to know what you have , where and in what quantities.
"How the RBE is able to know what people wants? "
Surveys.
"If the RBE is going to be decentralized (I think this is the first time I hear it), what mechanism warranties the coordination between the basic elements of decision making. "
As far as i understand it ;

Action is taken in a decentralized manner while all is accounted centrally.
You cant manage resources if you have no entire data thus centralization.
People in tropic areas have different needs and want then in other areas of the world ( for example what would be the point of production very heavy clothes in the middle of Africa ) thus action is decentralized.

"In free market, those basic elements are people."
Hardly
Basic elements are companies and profit.
"What are those basic elements in RBE? Cities?"
I guess you could say that.

Ok i will try differently
It is in the interests of all objects already established on the free market to destroy free market principles in order to secure its position .

Do you agree or not ?


The problem is that it must to be maintained cyclically as often as possible which leads to the unnatural high resource consumption , planned obsolescence , huge waste and environmental impact and many other externalized costs.

RBE promotes something totally opposite , goods designed to last as long as possible, upgradeable and recyclable.


I know .


Yes it does.
How can you imagine economy based on any money where production is constant ? Money would just accumulate in few hands and economy collapse.

There you go technological unemployment again and artificial need to sustain jobs which leads to many negative consequences.

within a free market "production doesn't need to increase( but can if possible)".

Yes it needs to sustain money circulation ............


Omg yes they do its called bankruptcy.



I am not familiar to the idea. And just so you know i consider this LETS an interesting idea propably much better would we have today , yet it still dont fix major issues connected to the monetary exchange mentioned before in this thread.


One genetic engineer can do the job of thousand workers , since when you have a seed its done deal , over ,no more work.


It is very different today, because we are reaching the point not only that human labor is diminished as in the past but can be totally replaced in many cases.
Even if some miraculous invention would come it has high chance its production,service can already be automated.



It is not true , we produce enough food to feed everyone yet 2 billion ( or less ) people dont have purchasing power to buy it.
It is wasteful and stupid and done in the name of profit.



Population can be surveyed , with the age of computers you can get input almost instantly.
Free market cant predict what people want as well it just quickly reacts to those wants , the same way would be with RBE just action would be coordinated and decentralized.

Again , they are emergent from free market. You dont understand or you dont agree ?


I dont understand how for example you can produce ipods for wage. Almost all productions and services has associeted cost with it.


Well all capital-based have that cyclical consumption in-printed into system. Be it fiat, gold or bitcoin.

The bartering ones like LETS , perhaps manage resources differently since you can go on negative without actually borrowing money.



"The economy", in general, requires infinite growth?"
No the economy based on monetary exchange requires infinite growth. People have to have jobs and money must circulate.

The proposed RBE is totally dispatched from this reality. People dont need to have jobs, production doesnt need to increase( but can if possible ).

If production output will be constant factories producing crucial goods wont be closed because they stopped to be profitable due to the fact money no longer circulates as it used too. Silly things like that can only happen in a monetary based systems.




Ok this requires tremendous trust and is easily exploitable thats why i only works on local level. I cant possibly see it applied on global level.


If you noticed ,none of those occupations is actually new. Those jobs are only changing its specifics not multiply it self magically .In fact those jobs suffer the same fate as simple production for example programmers can now make much more complicated programs in much less time due to established frameworks.


In past huge technological breakthroughs made so it didn't last.

Steam engine - steel - electricity - automobile industry - electronics - internet ... but now its ended .




In order for abundance to occur everyone have to have a purchasing power. If everyone have a purchasing power , money inflates .

It is a paradox that is inputted in any kind of monetary system.


No i did not mean "define the human needs/wants scientifically? No, thanks." Didn't say so, although needs can be scientifically defined for each of us ( you need to eat , defect , feel loved as a child by parents and so on) , and wants it just an individual stuff.

Then we shall find a intelligent way to fulfill human needs thanks to scientific methods and not acting like retards creating gazillions ipads that are designed to fail and cant be upgraded with all the externalized costs attached.


I tried to point out that regulations and patents are en effect not a a cause.


What exactly does that mean. You dont produce if you dont have profit. Abudance = no profit.

You are talking about some virtual money sequences i talk about actual products that goes into people hands.


You dont understand the concept.

If money dont circulate economy stops.

Infinite growth paradigm directly relates to the fact that for economy to work requires infinite growth of production and consumption. How the hell are you suppose to sustain that on a finite planet ?



You mean interest on borrowed money ? Yes they are a problem since they dont exists in money supply.
How are you suppose to achieve that.
Who in his right mind gonna lend money without attaching any interest ?


You mean like government employees , marketers , bankers , and other useless occupations ?

When was the last time new massive occupation were created ? It was development of Internet which at the same time make a lot of jobs obsolete. Since then we are in a constant downward spiral of really useful jobs.

Beside numbers dont agree with your statement , technological unemployment is very real.


I am not really familiar with those concepts so please correct me if see it wrong but after brief look at time banking.

I can see it can only apply to services.
Needs for jobs must be artificially maintained.
Limited ability to earn "money" since time is always constant.

How is that gonna create abundance in the world ?

Scarcity can be overcomed due to technological progress, nature doesn't produce technology but we can. We have plenty of renewable energy resources around to achieve that.

The problem is it wont happen via profit mechanism. Supply and demand at its finest.

If supply of goods reach to the point that something is abundant its prices reaches 0 thus you cant make profit thus there is no incentive for such a thing to happen in the first place.

Scarcity is artificially sustained in todays world.


I dont think it is possible to eliminate coercion from a system based on competition and in builded scarcity , the system that teaches us from the beginning of the life to screw other people over.

Assuming it would be possible , ideal free market still doesn't address a lot of major issues like scarcity of resources , infinite growth paradigm , technological unemployment or sustaining of environment.

No and Yes(somehow)

Its not there is something wrong with barter, it means that if barter is required there is something wrong with envoirment = scarcity.

Well yes.


No idea.

No, every prohibition is just dealing with effects not causes.

Free market leads to destruction of free market , to monopolies too.

Coercion will always come since there is huge incentive to do so . Coercion is rewarded in monetary based system.

No mafia and international banksters are not examples of free market enterprises but it is in their incentive to limit free market as possible as for any company that is allready making buck and they have position on the market. This is crucial to understand the true causes of regulation, patents and so on, something that free marketers are blinded to see.

IF YOU HAVE ALLREADY POSITION ON FREE MARKET IT IS IN YOUR INCENTIVE TO DESTROY IT ( destroy free market )

That would explain your post. Maybe you should read it after all , i have only thing to add right now.


If hard work would be a measurement of wealth slaves would be the richest

But what about the fact that government is controlled by people with a lot of money that emerged from a monetary system .

Dont you see it as natural tendency , free market that cant exists becuase it is destroyed by people allready on it the moment they gain a lot of money and money = power.

Why compete if you can control = the most efficient way to behave on a free market envoirment.

I have 4 hrs still cant post

It is very possible, remeber hackers are always one step ahead and then imagine bitcoins would increase in price , how tasty target that woul be.

You would have to make the world belive that virtual bitcoins are better then fiat money.

Doubt it will ever surpass gold or silver.

It is changing on its own , we are entering fully emergant information age.

Poeple are being transformed from passive reciever to activists.

Hi

Now i have to spam newbie forum becuase you are afriad of ... spam , how intelligent.