https://youtu.be/p37Wg6h2PJ4The linked video explains the difference between traditional financial instruments and bitcoin. Both traditional financial instruments and bitcoin are essentially numbers stored on some media. Either on plastic, paper, metal or digital. However, there's one huge difference between the two. Traditional financial instruments are redeemable by the issuer. Meaning, the issuer withdraws instrument units from the market, and in the process pays the redemption value to the holders. Once the units are withdrawn they ceased to exist. New units are then created again, and the whole process repeats itself. Also, a fixed or expected redemption value is what we use to determine whether a particular market price of an instrument is cheap or expensive. On the other hand, bitcoin is not redeemable by their issuers. The issuers of bitcoin never withdraw its units from the market in order to pay something to holders, which is why bitcoin has zero redemption value. What that means is two things. First, any price of bitcoin above zero is infinitely expensive (price of bitcoin devided by zero redemption value gives infinity). Second, bitcoin is similar to a losing lottery ticket, to a stock of a bankrupt company, to a currency of a former county or to a casino token of a bankrupt casino. That's because, all mentioned instruments are numbers on some media, but their units are not redeemable by the issuer. Just like the bitcoin units are not.
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Bitcoin does not represent debt like dollar.
That's a feature, not a bug. It's kinda the whole point. But congratulations for finally getting off the mark with some basic comprehension. Bankruptcy is an inevitable consequence for some in a debt-based system. It literally cannot be avoided. Some people have to fail, effectively be chewed up and spat out by the machine, in order for the system to continue to function. Why would we want to emulate that? Sure some people fail. But most do not. And that's why the banking system functions globally just fine. |
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Bitcoin of course being the imaginary thing.
people who are anti or not happy with Bitcoin, they can make youtube as much as they like for the sake of 'youtube' content in Imaginary form or something else, actually Bitcoin has been running for 13 years, they weren't happy before Satoshi was found. I ask you as long as you know crypto or Bitcoin whether Bitcoin as an adjective (Imaginary), the answer lies in yourself...don't watch too much youtube that leads to the discussion of the Imaginary, it can worsen your life in assessing Bitcoin. Indeed Bitcoin is 'Imaginary' but you receive banknotes after exchanging Bitcoins and making money, in 'proven' form. People are happy because they live in the world of fantasy. A fantasy in which they multiply the number in the wallet with the current price in dollars and think they're rich. Dollar rich. Dollar is real asset, real debt ownership. To get that ownership they need to sell their numbers. Meaning, they need to find the whole army of new investors. But no such army exists. When the army of wallet holders start to sell, the price will drop faster than it went up. Then you'll see a lot of unhappy people. Only the minority can profit in the scheme where all profits to old investors came from funds of new investors. Hint: Ponzi. |
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It is a fact that yor address has electronic entry in the form of a number. Number that quantifies/represents the amount of bitcoins. That's an assumption. The address just represents units of debt. If two people agree that they can debt each other using this system, then they have every right to do so. Just like how dollars represent debt, Bitcoin does too. It has no difference, other than the force of the dollar usage. If you believe that Bitcoin is an imaginary thing, then you should do this for the dollar too. Although, I believe that the word “imaginary” is subjective. I'd rather call it “intangible”. You people are full of imagination. Bitcoin does not represent debt like dollar. There are no debtors, creditors, loan contracts, or collaterals. Bitcoin is imaginary. In your wallet you hold a number that quantifies imaginary bitcoins. That's all. Watch the video again. you should know that fiat is not backed by anything in comparison to BTC. if the government declares it no valuable anymore, then it's zero. but who would declare BTC to be of no value? to answer that NO ONE. Bitcoin is created through a mathematical equation in which miners have to spend energy this at least is hard work not by just printing. the intrinsic value goes up because it's the network of users who ask/bid. Fiat is debt, and debt is backed by loan contracts, collaterals and the equity of the banks. Please, educate yourself. Regarding bitcoin. It is not bitcoin what is created through a mathematical equation, but a number. A number that quantifies imaginary bitcoins. And this number is created out of thin air. Regardless of the fact that the algorithm makes the miners to show the POW, that number is still a number. And all numbers come out of thin air. |
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Watch the video again. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention to the video. I was too busy withdrawing my imaginary bitcoin clown money from an online bookmaker. The fact is I made a nice little profit betting on a basketball match yesterday with 2.60 odds. Luckily the mempool is empty so the imaginary withdrawal fees are almost non-existent. I need a new monitor because the old one is acting up. I will use my winnings to buy one from a local tech store that happens to accept Satoshi's daydream coins. Good day to you sir! It's not about whether you can profit. All schemes are profitable for some people. It's about whether the thing that lures people to invest in the scheme is real or imaginary. |
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It is a fact that yor address has electronic entry in the form of a number. Number that quantifies/represents the amount of bitcoins. That's an assumption. The address just represents units of debt. If two people agree that they can debt each other using this system, then they have every right to do so. Just like how dollars represent debt, Bitcoin does too. It has no difference, other than the force of the dollar usage. If you believe that Bitcoin is an imaginary thing, then you should do this for the dollar too. Although, I believe that the word “imaginary” is subjective. I'd rather call it “intangible”. You people are full of imagination. Bitcoin does not represent debt like dollar. There are no debtors, creditors, loan contracts, or collaterals. Bitcoin is imaginary. In your wallet you hold a number that quantifies imaginary bitcoins. That's all. Watch the video again. |
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Phobia may be referred to as an extreme fear or an anxiety disorder. There is a lengthy list of different kinds of phobias as; acrophobia, fear of heights, homophobia, fear of blood etc.
In this topic, I will discuss the fear of Cryptocurrencies; cryptophobia. The cryptophobia in this context is connotative, which might not be its literal meaning.
The fear of cryptocurrency might be; not being involved at all, discouraging others from being involved, not having peace of mind when involved and always checking or afraid of checking portfolio balance.
Causes:
1. Someone who heard a victim's negative statements about cryptocurrency, maybe how he lost all his money (even if to scammers) might begin to develop fear for crypto.
2. Someone who does not understand how crypto works. Humans are naturally afraid of what they don't understand.
3. Inability to take risk. Someone who is not a risk take is liable to be have cryptophobia.
The Effects of Cryptophobia on BTC
1. It slows the rate of BTC adoption world wide, as in most cases the phobia is not only individual but National. Which I think is one of the reasons for inconsistent bans and adoption in different countries.
2. It exposes the victims to scam. Over willingness to have someone to guide them makes them preys before scammers.
3. It encourages the spread of false information about BTC.
4. It triggers emotional trauma to potential bitcoin investors.
Solutions:
1. Victims needs to be taught cryptocurrency from the scratch, expose them to crypto videos and audio. Show them testimony of people who became very rich from cryptocurrency. This is mindset re-orientation. Making them to invest small and have small profit will surely be a behavioral therapy.
Thank you all!
Why would anyone be afraid of an imaginary thing: https://youtu.be/aBl-O_3g_58 |
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The blockchain ledger is not imaginary. There are real transactions between bitcoin addresses using public-key cryptography.
Look at the definition of "electronic coin" in the bitcoin whitepaper to better understand in what sense bitcoins exist.
In a sense, I agree with you. There are no coins. Only timestamped transactions that cannot double-spend funds.
But your understanding of how it all works seems very little and poorly digested. I recommend you to study it better before saying all that deceiving nonsense.
But if that is your truth, hope you are happy with it. But be sure that Maths will not change with your poor understanding of it all.
-remotemass
Everything you said is related to the representation that one holds (number), but the thing (quantified with the number) that one should own is imaginary. In stocks or fiat money you also hold numbers, that is, quantity, but the thing that you own is real - company or debt. So, blockchain number holders own imaginary coins, tokens, asset, digital gold, value, whatever. That's why they need new investors to bring them the value. Without them they are left with nothing. |
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The whole point of the video is that bitcoin is imaginary things and that electronic entries in the blockchain are representations of that imaginary thing. Nowhere in the whitepaper, neither in bitcoin.org, is said that bitcoins are electronic entries that represent a thing. The video describes a falsely analogy between Porches and Bitcoin. It compares a guy having cars with another one who just imagines them. Then, it says that you can't have bitcoins, you just imagine them, which is wrong. I can imagine that I have 50 BTC, but the system works with proofs. If I don't provide the necessary proof, I'm an imaginator, if I do, I'm the owner. So, there's no difference with Porches and bitcoins besides intangibility! It doesn't exist on anyone's imagination, it is just a way to transact value. An unstoppable and censorship resistant ledger of debts. Anyone who thinks that it should be evaluated can join. Lets be honest here without Fiat Bitcoin would be worthless because 99% of people sell or trade it for Fiat money Without it being linked to Fiat it would not have any value at all. Would you mind sharing with us your statistics? I'm curious to know how you calculated that ninety nine percent. I am not referring to "paper" or ".org". I am referring to reality, to facts. It is a fact that yor address has electronic entry in the form of a number. Number that quantifies/represents the amount of bitcoins. But these bitcoins exist only in the imagination. That's the point. The "paper" and ".org", are concerned with entries/quantities/representation and their management. But they completely ignore the fact that the thing on which the representation is about exists only in the imagination. |
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The blockchain ledger is not imaginary. There are real transactions between bitcoin addresses using public-key cryptography.
Look at the definition of "electronic coin" in the bitcoin whitepaper to better understand in what sense bitcoins exist.
In a sense, I agree with you. There are no coins. Only timestamped transactions that cannot double-spend funds.
But your understanding of how it all works seems very little and poorly digested. I recommend you to study it better before saying all that deceiving nonsense.
But if that is your truth, hope you are happy with it. But be sure that Maths will not change with your poor understanding of it all.
-remotemass
I am not talking about definitions and other things that exists in human mind. I am talking about the fact that the thing on which the quantity (representation) in the blockchain is about residents in the imagination. You as a representation holder own no real thing. That's why you need new investors to bring you the real thing. Just like in Ponzi. The things you are talking about are irrelevant in that regard. |
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The video is quite good but based on lies and fundamental misconceptions. It is probably good at ludibriating people for a few hours before an expert comes in.
Bitcoins are not a digital representation of goods and services. They are digital assets (with a fixed scheduled supply that makes them scarce and useful as a medium of exchange) earned by the miners that secure the network and verify transactions.
Those miners create a valuable network and that is why they are paid.
When the paid miners put a price to sell their coins a market is created, allowing for a transfer of wealth to happen in between the market participants.
Please read the bitcoin whitepaper for a couple of hours before saying nonsense. And also please read some past threads on this forum regarding pyramid and Ponzi schemes, which unlike bitcoins are illegal everywhere. It may look a bit like those as more adoption pushes the price up but in reality very different from them. Please read a bit more.
-remotemass
Nowhere in the video is said that "bitcoins are a digital representation of goods and services." You simply made that up. The whole point of the video is that bitcoin is imaginary things and that electronic entries in the blockchain are representations of that imaginary thing. In the rest of the comment you talk about the management of electronic entries, which has nothing to do with the point of the video. You also describe imaginary bitcoins. I know that in people's imagination bitcoin is a lots of things. That's ok, but the video is not concerned with this. Video simply explains why bitcoins exist only in the imagination. |
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https://youtu.be/aBl-O_3g_58The video explains how the phenomenon of representative equivalence and the myth of fiat money being just paper bills or electronic entries on the bank accounts, enabled the craziness in which people trade real things for imaginary ones. Bitcoin of course being the imaginary thing.
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Ok. I'll accept the fact you can't send me BTC. It does not exist for you. That's fine with me. Have a nice day.
Nobody is able to send you BTC. Only symbols for it. BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind. Everything else traded in the market exists outside of the human mind (equity, debt, labor, services, cars, buildings, land, etc.). Given that Bitcoin exists only in imagination everyone defines it differently. Some even view it as a shiny coin which is why they create pictures of it. But you won't risk somebody buying you coffee with it? And by the way admitting that zero is a human concept you have to admit that Bitcoin is a human concept. And we find zero quite useful don't we? Pretty good for something that's a representative of nothing!
We can make 0 and Bitcoin equals. Since they are both representations of nothing. According to you.
No, they are both concepts. They don't actually exist in reality outside of the human mind. And both concepts can be represented with symbols: "zero", "0", "bitcoin", "btc". I can't believe people actually think about bitcoin like this  as if they are so smart that they realize that a bitcoin can't be physically held. I don't think this person would think this way about gravity or physics or love or brand value or other "intangible" things. Whether something is "real" or not is just all perspective. By this logic the US dollar is certainly not real either. Probably even less real than bitcoin. Debt also can't be physically held. But it exists outside of human mind. US dollar is debt. This debt is represented with symbols "USD", and numbers. Debt is real. It is explained in the OP how it is created and how it is paid. You claim BTC does not exist. But you also acknowledge that Zero Doesn't exist. Since Zero and BTC are Both non existent how can we even think about such things if they do not exist? You/We clearly do think that Zero not only exists but has great value. You can apply the exact same logic to BTC. You cannot get around this argument since you have already said zero doesn't exist either. These statement have equal value. since neither exists. Are we having fun yet? Zero is word for the concept of non-existence of quantity. BTC is word for the concept of money. Words exist. Concepts exist. But concepts exist in fantasy, not in reality. Bitcoin is money that exist in fantasy. It is represented with the word that exist in reality. If I say that you own 10 Ferraris, and I write that statement down on paper, we have words on the medium that represent Ferraris that exist in fantasy. Likewise, if, via his software, Satoshi writes into the blockchain that some miner owns 10 Bitcoins, we have words on the medium that represent bitcoins that exist in Satoshi's fantasy. Things don't come into existence via words. Only if you are God. Satoshi is not God. |
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you say bitcoin doesn't exist, bitcoin is just a theory and satoshi tricked us with his theory, if you say so, i think you are the same as elon musk, maybe you are a crypto whale, who wants to scare weak hands, so you can take a lot of profit and can buy a lot of bitcoins. Enough is enough, don't post negative things about bitcoin anymore..
I wasn't precise enough. Bitcon exists, but only as the product of Satoshi's imagination and as such it resides only in fantasy. In the blockchain you have representation of that fantasy. |
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I still don't see a transaction id or hash. So, yes, no "symbols" have been sent. I know I should stop feeding the troll, but ... oh well.  BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind.
Make up your mind. It does not exist. Now it exists. It doesn't exist in reality, it exists in Satoshi's fantasy. And Satoshi uses numbers in the blockchain to represent his fantasy. |
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Ok. I'll accept the fact you can't send me BTC. It does not exist for you. That's fine with me. Have a nice day.
Nobody is able to send you BTC. Only symbols for it. BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind. Everything else traded in the market exists outside of the human mind (equity, debt, labor, services, cars, buildings, land, etc.). Given that Bitcoin exists only in imagination everyone defines it differently. Some even view it as a shiny coin which is why they create pictures of it. But you won't risk somebody buying you coffee with it? And by the way admitting that zero is a human concept you have to admit that Bitcoin is a human concept. And we find zero quite useful don't we? Pretty good for something that's a representative of nothing!
We can make 0 and Bitcoin equals. Since they are both representations of nothing. According to you.
No, they are both concepts. They don't actually exist in reality outside of the human mind. And both concepts can be represented with symbols: "zero", "0", "bitcoin", "btc". I can't believe people actually think about bitcoin like this as if they are so smart that they realize that a bitcoin can't be physically held. I don't think this person would think this way about gravity or physics or love or brand value or other "intangible" things. Whether something is "real" or not is just all perspective. By this logic the US dollar is certainly not real either. Probably even less real than bitcoin. Debt also can't be physically held. But it exists outside of human mind. US dollar is debt. This debt is represented with symbols "USD", and numbers. Debt is real. It is explained in the OP how it is created and how it is paid. |
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Right. I can just send you Satoshi's words on it. Satoshi said via his software that BTC exists, and you all blindly believe him that it does by exchanging his words in a digital form.
Right, I'll believe you when you can show me the transaction ID on the software, not here on this forum. That kind of "declaration" would be enough for me if I can view in a block explorer or the wallet software that it has declared some blocks or confirmation. Otherwise, I don't believe you, you have not sent me any BTC. If you'd like, send me a PM and I can give you an address not in my profile and I will confirm if you send any BTC to that address. As I said already, it is impossible for me to sent you BTC. It is impossible also for Satoshi. That's why he, that is, his software, only sends statements about BTC. Like I did above for Donald Trump. Stop beating a dead horse and simply accept the fact that there is no such thing as Bitcoin. |
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im not going to requote its getting long.
Does zero exist? ( 0 ).. ? Does it exist when I write it? Does it exist if I only think about it? Does it exist if I don't think or write about it?
As a representation of nothing or lack of something. How does this work, if I write 10?
I mean I wrote 0 but I can't have written 0 if it means nothing at all?
2 things that cant exist but clearly we can think about them 0 and Infinities. and my favorite bit of silliness Infinity plus 1 how can you have an infinity if I can simply add to the statement +1 ? is it wrong? maybe ,But real, it is. How can it be not real if I can say it? or write it? It might be WRONG
Bitcoin is a Human imposition on the non existence of something. therefore it becomes real because we said so. having you say it say the opposite does not negate the fact that it IS because you thought about it. By thinking about it, it becomes real have fun !
Zero exists as a concept in the human mind for no quantity that you can represent with a symbol, "0", for example. Bitcoin exists as a concept in the human mind that is represented with symbols "BTC", and whose quantity is written in the blockchain. In the same way, in my mind I can create the concept of a thousand Donald Trumps and represent it with symbols "DTR", and "1,000" in some database. Then, we can buy and sell Donald Trump. |
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The illusory truth effect, refers to a phenomenon in which people, when hear the same false information repeated again and again, often come to believe it is true. Also, repetition of a such information increases its likelihood of being judged true. Even the most educated individuals are still prone to this effect. They may be skeptical of a false information the first time they hear it, but the more they are exposed to it, the more they start to feel like it’s true, and their previous knowledge is not able to prevent this.
As per your logic: 1. Gold bonds issued by Governments are fake - they are not backed by real gold. 2. Stocks that are sold on earlier in a day on intra-day trading are fake - because the seller never possessed the stock to begin with. 3. Fiat currencies are fake - "fiat" in itself stands for "trust" in the government for that currency, but it is known fact that government doesn't back the currency completely with other assets. 4. Entertainers, magicians, live singers, etc, all are fake - since once you see them perform and pay for it, you dont have anything tangible that you can carry. 5. A digital painting or a NFT is a fake - since i can never hang one on my wall at my home. The list can go on. You're right, everything is illusory and nothing is the truth. Why are you so wise in your ways!  It's not per my logic. This is per my logic: 1. Gold bonds are statements about debt. Debt exists. 2. Stocks are statements about companies. Companies exist. 3. Fiat currencies are statements about debt. Debt exists. 4. Entertainers, magicians, live singers, etc, all exist. 5. A digital painting or a NFT exists. So, what we have above are either statements about things, or the things themselves. In the blockchain you have Satoshi's statements on nonexistent Bitcoins. So, what's your point exactly? The "statement" on my software does not indicate you have sent me 10 BTC. Please give me the transaction ID so I may verify it. Thank you.
Of course it doesn't. Nor does the transaction ID. Both have nothing to do with BTC. They are just statements. BTC is nonexistent. Well, I guess if BTC is nonexistent, then you can't send me any right? I think we're done talking to you. As Satoshi once said, if you don't get it, we don't really have time to explain it to you. Right. I can just send you Satoshi's words on it. Satoshi said via his software that BTC exists, and you all blindly believe him that it does by exchanging his words in a digital form. ***yaaaawn***
tokens are inherently abstractions of something real, that's what "token" means. welcome to monetary theory 101
[/thread]
You're obviously wrong, OP thought that when he/she gets bitcoin, OP thinks that someone will send him physical coins like quarters and cents but I guess got disappointed and started to rant in this forum. I came here to teach people the difference between statements about things and things themselves. Regarding tokens. Token is a physical or digital voucher redeemable by the issuer. When you say that bitcoin exists as a token you are actually saying that blockchain address holders can redeam quantity next to their addresses at the issuer of the quantity. And something like that is impossible. So no tokens exist in Bitcoin scheme. Only statements about them. False statements. So Can You Touch a Photon? You cannot touch a photon 100% of what you know about photons is through secondary effects. can you see photons? No you cannot, everything you think you see about photons is through secondary effects. Any light entering your eye is only perceived through the electromagnetic force After it interacts with another electric field. By itself its completely invisible/untouchable it doesn't even exist to you unless it interacts. Photons and electrons are the same family of particles called Bosons and Leptons since Bitcoin is stored as electrons in human defined patterns. It totally exists. As a Human defined pattern enforced by miners equipment. You are literally attempting to deny the existence of the Universe and Humanity's effect of Divine ability to Change reality at this point. ( yes I threw in the divine => ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon I don't like to use wiki but as far as I can tell its correct in this case. I can't drop down below quantum force. Yet it still moves. So you are mentioning things detectible to our senses or artificial equipment. But why exactly? What is the point? I am not saying that Bitcoin is untouchable or undetectable. I am saying it is nonexistent. Only statements about it exist. Quantity statements in the blockchain written by the Satoshi's software. Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between statement about a thing and the thing itself? So by your OWN logic. why exactly? Whats the point? Why are you denying reality? Because at this point you are. Your clothes might as well not exist by your own non logic. as I said previously Philosopher with a bad idea trying to work backwards. Never works. Good for a useless document on the wall I am sure though. Not my logic. My logic simply differentiate between someone's words about a thing and the thing itself. So, your response makes no sense. The "statement" on my software does not indicate you have sent me 10 BTC. Please give me the transaction ID so I may verify it. Thank you.
OP thinks it's that easy to just declare you haave a bitcoin as if you are writing a cheque for yourself. Also, why does OP thinks that it's all lies? Did OP got scammed by someone out of his/her bitcoin, that's why OP is spreading this kind of stupid FUD. You declare it after POW. But that what is declared to exist is still nonexistent. Things don't come into existence via declarations. |
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***yaaaawn***
tokens are inherently abstractions of something real, that's what "token" means. welcome to monetary theory 101
[/thread]
You're obviously wrong, OP thought that when he/she gets bitcoin, OP thinks that someone will send him physical coins like quarters and cents but I guess got disappointed and started to rant in this forum. I came here to teach people the difference between statements about things and things themselves. Regarding tokens. Token is a physical or digital voucher redeemable by the issuer. When you say that bitcoin exists as a token you are actually saying that blockchain address holders can redeam quantity next to their addresses at the issuer of the quantity. And something like that is impossible. So no tokens exist in Bitcoin scheme. Only statements about them. False statements. So Can You Touch a Photon? You cannot touch a photon 100% of what you know about photons is through secondary effects. can you see photons? No you cannot, everything you think you see about photons is through secondary effects. Any light entering your eye is only perceived through the electromagnetic force After it interacts with another electric field. By itself its completely invisible/untouchable it doesn't even exist to you unless it interacts. Photons and electrons are the same family of particles called Bosons and Leptons since Bitcoin is stored as electrons in human defined patterns. It totally exists. As a Human defined pattern enforced by miners equipment. You are literally attempting to deny the existence of the Universe and Humanity's effect of Divine ability to Change reality at this point. ( yes I threw in the divine => ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon I don't like to use wiki but as far as I can tell its correct in this case. I can't drop down below quantum force. Yet it still moves. So you are mentioning things detectible to our senses or artificial equipment. But why exactly? What is the point? I am not saying that Bitcoin is untouchable or undetectable. I am saying it is nonexistent. Only statements about it exist. Quantity statements in the blockchain written by the Satoshi's software. Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between statement about a thing and the thing itself? |
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