Great points aigeezer. You're absolutely right that we can't compete head-on with traditional marketing (we'd need the entire market cap of crypto and then some to have even a chance!) But we can get clear about what DRK is, why it's important and why anyone should use it and that it's primarily about financial privacy and freedom, up front now to ensure the messaging is consistent. A small amount of clarity now has a great amount of leverage to help avoid confusion in the future.

I've never heard this piece of advice before.


Hilarious!

Respectfully ddink7, I unfortunately don't think you're right. The term "dark" where it's related to anything associated with the Internet means "people doing illegal things". The presence of "coins" within the context is almost irrelevant. I'll bet if you took this to a series of focus groups (as abhorrent a concept as they are) you would find that nearly every person would consider the word "dark" to be associated with illegal goings on and/or dubious on-line activity by people with something to hide that involves them doing wrong. I'm in Australia and have mentioned DarkCoin to a few friends and family and every single person has thought that it sounds (what we here term) dodgy. Maybe wherever you are it's different, but I'd be surprised if that's the case.

Okay, great. Agree totally, reset the platform upon which this stuff sits/get people to "think" using different tools/techniques (but we'll still need one foot in the existing modus operandi of "marketing/product positioning" or we'll never connect to enough people to get some sort of critical mass). The important point is consideration of DRK's outbound messaging is fundamentally important and we need to get ahead of the situation before it "forks" off into unrecoverability (look at any failed political campaign and you can generally see where the political party involved lost control of their message early on and failed to recover it).

I think Salmion's suggestion to get this going as a discussion on Darkcointalk is good and Nthelight's invite to that thread on the same forum where he's already put forward many key points around this same issue is worth accepting/being involved with too.

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/10-reasons-to-invest-in-darkcoin.814/#post-4804

Ignition I have spent decades questioning almost every aspect of how we live, why we accept things being the way they are and why banks have become so powerful. I have an extensive knowledge of the greatest scam in the history of the world (guv issued fiat) that we've all been subject to for decades now and what a house of cards it involves.

I am not a person that has "this attitude that empowers the existing way of things".

I seem to be having the same difficulty here with everyone not peering down into the next layer of the argument I'm putting up here but simply returning to their comfort level around what THEY think DRK is all about.

I love what DRK stands for, what Evan's created and the potential for the millions who ABSOLUTELY NEED this technology to set them free. I'm not thinking from within the constraints of typical brainwashed westernised financial slavery that has trouble breaking away from rules, regulations and the status quo. I'm specifically talking about the risk to DRK from a runaway incorrect public perception. Just because we know what it's really about and we know the potential for good does not mean this is how it will be understood by society in general. At this point I would say the potential for it to be seen as an illegal network supporting criminal activity is way way stronger than it being seen as a tool to set people free.

A branding/positioning issue exists and all the techo/libertarian/cool conversations in the world aren't going to shift that. It needs consideration along the lines of Nthelight's posting above.

Thanks Nthelight, you've added much to what I'm trying to articulate.

And before everyone jumps down our throats with a collective repulsion of: "stop worrying about 'what the public wants' and the 'mainstream' as DRK isn't about making 'the public' happy", you MUST understand that branding and public opinion are massively important to the success of a product or service, even if it's going to remain relatively niche. You simply cannot underestimate how badly this could turn out and how toxic the term "DarkCoin" could so easily become if perceptions are not carefully managed. The attitude here is quite often "f^*@ them, what would they know" and that's guaranteed to make DRK fail.

This bit you wrote...


...is key to the risk I've been talking about. If the factors above are not considered DRK will come unstuck badly. Having great technology is just one factor in a product's success (and, of course, a very important one) but the other factors around branding and perception are way more critical for long term sustainability/survival.

Thanks for your input, I will post over in that thread you've mentioned.

I fully understand what DRK's going to do for the millions of people in the world for who privacy isn't just something nice to have, their very life depends on it.

Contrary to some of the comments on here (which are hardly a surprise, so many people aren't able to think through counterpoint issues, they just return to a default position of rejecting even constructive criticism) I'm not misunderstanding the enormity of what DRK's potentially going to bring to the wider world. I'm talking about the risk to DRK of government and big business facilitating a whipping up of extreme public negative sentiment towards it resulting in a witch-hunt style of attack on anyone involved in running DRK MNs and/or DRK related businesses/services.

It's the risk to DRK of it becoming publicly associated first and foremost as a "criminals' network" that I'm highlighting, not whether DRK has validity, everyone here knows it does. The level of anonymity and privacy offered is a fundamental right that we all should be upholding.

I'm talking about the risk DRK faces and whether we can mitigate that risk to some extent.

No. I'm not in 99% otherwise I wouldn't be articulating such a concept (or even be here in this thread). I'm purely considering the risk to DRK from 99%'s reaction under mass manipulation by guv, bigbis, media. It's a very real risk and one to be considered rather than discredited like you've just done.

Macno I don't yet know what to offer as a solution, but I'm thinking this is primarily a marketing issue. We're all here singing the praises of privacy and anonymity because many of us have come from a libertarian perspective meaning we don't need to have a "your right to privacy 101" conversation before we even start. But Average Joe is clueless about privacy and has no idea how their profile data is being used by guv and big business every day to milk them for more and more. And if something big like 9/11 (or even a smaller version) was to happen, the guv will look for any scapegoats they can find where messaging can be put out that Average Joe will fall for and DRK will be right in the firing line.

Somehow, I think we need to consider whether the term "dark" is just already too far gone in the public's mind and creates unnecessary risk for us (i.e. rather than trying to educate people on what this is really all about, which will be almost impossible, especially during a witch hunt, maybe we need to come up with different terminology altogether).

Edit: And if something big like 9/11 (or even a smaller version) was to happen, the guv will look for any scapegoats they can find where messaging can be put out that Average Joe will fall for and DRK will be right in the firing line.

Thanks for responding coins101; I always enjoy your posts.

I know, and you know (and probably most of the people on here know) that an anonymous currency and Internet browsing tool like DarkCoin/DarkTor IS NOT to blame for people doing illegal things and committing crime any more than say a road is the cause of a fleeing bank robber. Crime will likely always exist and criminals will continue to find new and novel ways to perform their dastardly deeds.

But, the public takes years to come around to the logic of valid arguments. And in the post 9/11 world of "homeland security" governments are taking liberties that they could never have gotten away with previously. I've had to listen to numerous ignorant people talking about ISPs being responsible for illegal file downloads. That these same people would think you're mad to say the phone company is responsible for the content of criminals' conversations being conveyed across the wires, but they struggle to understand how an ISP is only a conveyance mechanism and can't be responsible for policing content. This is what we'll likely face. Mr and Mrs Joe Public (manipulated and controlled by the guv, big business and the media) will not be able to differentiate between a network that guarantees privacy (for a thousand valid democracy-based reasons) and people using it to perform criminal acts. And our protestations on this will just be lost in a sea of damnation if DRK is found to have been the conduit for communications/funds transfer for terrorists who've committed some major attack.

It's one thing to hold a purest view on how this "should" play out (and how we "should" be treated) it' another thing to prepare for the likely reality. I'm just saying we need to risk profile this as I think it's potentially a show-stopper somewhere down the track.

Sorry for the long post but this is very important.

I haven't posted too often in this thread but I've pretty much read all the pages (sometimes flicking rapidly down the screen to get past the less than relevant stuff and occasionally needing to miss a wad of pages to quickly catch up). I'm heavily invested in DRK. It's been the coin I've kept the bulk of my crypto value in. I'm as pleased as the next person to see the price free-fall coming to an end and I'm also excited about the possibilities Evan's latest announcement has brought.

However, I think we need to have an urgent and open discussion about the potential unintended consequences of "DarkTor" (or whatever it's going to be called). For a while now the term "dark" has been sitting uncomfortably with me. Not because the dev's intention is to create a tool for illegal money laundering and drug money to hide itself, but that the mainstream media and public in general are immediately going to assume "DarkCoin" is about illegal activity and underworld crime. Outside of the coolness of Batman who fights crime and keeps the residents of Gotham safe and a distinct type of chocolate, "dark" generally relates to a side of human nature that everyone knows exists but most don't want to investigate. One can watch a film that is "dark", one can engage in illegal activities that would be thought of as "dark", one can investigate the occult and black magic which is most definitely "dark" and one can find one's way into a whole "dark" world on the internet that's going to involve all sorts of "dark" things like the supply of illicit drugs, child pornography, terrorism and human trafficking. Like it or not, for the public and mainstream media, dark = bad/illegal/criminal.

Now, we have the remarkable opportunity to provision completely anonymous Internet access/browsing and Tor-like privacy (but even better than Tor given the likely flaws in Tor as it stands) and create an outstanding revenue stream for MN operators. As many posters on here have pointed out, this is what crypto's been missing, an immediate and powerful reason for new money to come into crypto and get immediate value (rather than it just being a purely speculative play). It opens up enormous potential for DRK to sky-rocket in value and become a much much bigger undertaking.

All good and wonderful. But (and it's a monumental BUT that I don't think anyone's truly thinking though), if DarkCoin previously had the potential to be seen as dubious because of its name and association with possible money laundering and illegality, DarkTor will 100% cement that perception. If you can pay $0.50 per day to browser the Internet completely anonymously and securely, it will become THE paedophile and terrorist tool of choice. In fact, once it becomes known as THE answer to web anonymity because the technology is so sound and so thorough, it will be THE ONLY place paedophiles and terrorists go to ply their trade.

Just how long do you think DRK is going to last under this scenario? How likely is it MN operators will just be left to carry on on their merry way, earning dollars and maintaining the network without intervention by a plethora of government entities? How long before major investigative programs like the PBS's FRONTLINE in the US and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's 4Corners in Australia do a massive exposure of what's going on with DRK? If there's proof terrorists and paedophiles are using it, do you think the libertarian arguments many of us here know and love about the right to privacy will even feature as a counterpoint to what's potential going through the DRK network?
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I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm bursting everyone's bubble (and please, let's be intelligent enough with this that I don't get accusations of troll and FUD hurled at me; this is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed). We are all having a wonderful time talking about how exciting this is and how rosy the future looks. As a technologist that also has high levels of EQ, a heart, a soul and a deep level of care for my fellow man, I can see this turning into a "marketing", "damage control", "PR" disaster.

Evan, if you've truly built a better version of Tor (without all the worry of nodes being run by the NSA and potential flaws and vulnerabilities exposing users' browsing) then you have achieved something remarkable. But, you've also created something that is going to become a massive threat to law enforcement and security. It will not go unnoticed by those that have a vested interest in preventing technology like this being used by humans that want to do damage. I've mentioned something similar to this in a previous post (some weeks or month ago), the words "dark coin" or dark tor" are likely to end up with the worst of the worst connotations that will make the phrase "silk road" sound like something Disney might be involved in.

I implore every one to take off their techo propeller hat for a moment and discuss this from a human/societal perspective. We're likely to see DRK go to great heights only to become a concept so offensive and dirty that anyone who's even been remotely involved will be labelled with the same connotations as the criminals who're likely to become DRK's best customers. As for mainstream POS take-up of DRK, even at the most basic level on websites that might currently be offering Bitcoin, I think we could completely forget that possibility if DRK gets associated first and foremost with criminal activity.

I'm very concerned.

It's an absolute blood bath in crypto across the board at the moment. I'm invested in some very promising altcoins including DarkCoin, Cloakcoin and ReddCoin. They're all being hammered except for ReddCoin (well, in real terms it's being hammered too as BTC has taken a tumble, but it's holding well against BTC). I've been pretty amazed at how stable it is.

I am. To get this stuff out into the mainstream there are dozens of questions we need to have immediate and sound answers for. With my "regular Joe the consumer" hat on, how about these questions that are likely to come from someone completely new to Crypto be discussed and considered?

1. (A likely scenario) "My friend told me all about CloakCoin and I downloaded the wallet. He sent me a few Cloak to get me started. And now he showed me how to buy BTC at an exchange, convert it to Cloak and now we transferred it to my wallet. I'm really excited about this! But my tech friend's gone away. I forgot to ask him, if I'm buying something from a website in Cloak and I use PoSA, how do I know that they've received my payment?"

2. "And what if they say they didn't receive it? Who do I contact to find out what's happened to my Cloak I sent?"

3. "I read the PoSA explanatory non-technical PDF, I think it's really cool. What if my coins get exchanged with a criminal or terrorist organisation while they're being cloaked? Have I committed a money laundering crime?"

4. "and my friend told me about OneMarket, I can't wait to use it. You know on eBay you get 'buyer protection' if you don't receive your stuff. How will that work on OneMarket? Like, how will you know if the party you're buying from really did receive your payment? And if I'm selling stuff on OneMarket and the buyer says they didn't receive the shipment does the Escrow system within PoSA help protect me from them claiming they haven't received the shipment when they have?"

5. "And will there be an on-line wallet so I don't have to worry about backing up my wallet and my laptop crashing?"

6. "I heard you get 'interest' on your wallet balance. Who's paying that, Cloak?"

7. "If my laptop does crash and I haven't backed up my wallet can I still get my coins back from the block chain somehow?"

8. "When I installed the wallet it took a long time to synchronise the download. Someone told me eventually Bitcoin and other cryptos will be unusable because the block chain will be too big. Is that right?"

9. "What happens if the Cloak developers go out of business, will my Cloak become worthless?"

10. "I'm really worried about my laptop being hacked. Are there viruses that can get my Cloak? What can I do to stop this?"

Edit: Fixed Q1 buying BTC from exchange, than converting it to Cloak then sending it to wallet.

Yes, the 'problems' mentioned in here would give people a false impression. The average punter isn't able to understand that we're on an a 'Release Candidate' network and code implementation.

Good to hear about Propulsion's recovery of Camo's coins.  But this bit


based on how he was talking about the loss of coins being almost the least of his problems today, perhaps not....

There have been plenty of examples of people from here writing excessively negative posts over in the DRK thread. I've been reading both of them for a long time. It's terribly wearing. Any of us that are serious want serious discussion about the coin's development and future; that's what this is about. Both DRK and  CLK have enourmous potential but they can also easily be wiped out by a serious technical failure or a malicious hack/concerted take-down. It's very early days and what we need to do is focus, focus, focus on getting a clear and concise message out to help bring more investors and greater thoroughness. Many people here are trying to do that. Many people over in the Dark camp are the same; but on each side there are a handful just caught up in complete and utter stupidity of quoting half-truths (or often no-truths) and throwing mud around in the hope some of it will stick. That's just a recipe for intelligence substantial people to leave and nit come back.

Focus on what is good about Cloak and forget about talking DRK (or any other coin) down. And if people come here to put shit on Cloak, competently correct their mis-assertions and stay focussed on Cloak's outstanding features and benefits.

That's how this coin will become wildly successful.

Guys, I am equally invested in both DRK and CLK. It does no good for CloakCoin's reputation to constantly talk DarkCoin down like this. I have done substantial due diligence and I believe the DRK dev team to be just as genuine and talented as the CLK dev team. The "never ending DRK premine/instamine FUD" which is brought up again and again has been dealt with numerous times and is no longer an issue (an I'm not going to put links in here because thsi is the Cloak thread....if you're interested go and seek the information out independently as I have done).

CloakCoin has some astoundingly good features and aspects to it. The future will be very bright if everyone stays professional and focusses on what's great about CloakCoin. Stop trashing DRK, they honestly don't deserve it. Both camps have people of dubious intent doing this, but at the core, both camps have some extremely talented people and what we all need to do is help to get people in here who're outside of Crypto.

There's just no need to put competitive coins down when what Cloak has is so good (and this exact same message I've said to the Dark people too).

Enough of this childish "gang" mentality; we don't need it. What we want to do is demonstrate how we're here for the long haul to get noticed by bigger markets and bigger investors. That won't happen while people engage in such banality.

I think JGCMiner meant to say "So long as there is no forking (which there isn't) you are right that coins CAN'T be lost" to be in agreeance. JGC, am I correct?

Watching this with absolute baited breath Camo. I'm really hoping for you that you can get through this big mess. Having worked in IT for a long time I've seen situations like this where you just lurch from one crisis to the next and everything ends up in interlaced ambiguity with little understanding of what the current true status is. Try to stay very calm and breathe deeply. I'm sure everyone will do the darnedest to help you recover all your coins.

Brilliantly stated allyouracid (are you just an "acid" supplier rather than someone that drops it too? You seem too sensible for a coke head)

Yes. I know it's off topic but someone that was that extraordinary needs to be acknowledged. Thanks for posting David.

Hey Brian (and the few others that keep writing "Cloack")

It's a small thing but an important one. You wouldn't see someone from Apple spelling that very successful business "Appel". And you would never see someone from Google writing Gewgle. And you wouldn't think too much of someone that keeps calling you Brianne would you (because that's not your name)!

Likewise, the name of Cloak is not Cloack. You're not respecting it by continually spelling it incorrectly.