Just sent this e-mail out to cryptostocks. Maybe Coinreturn is not a scam, but better trying stopping it now, before its getting worser and watching another pump and dump.

Dear Sirs,

we think of heavy price manipulations on CoinReturn.

1. IPO has been cancelled after some weeks, without notice (!), just after it happened. Announcement: IPO pause for one week.

2. Limited 10% (!) higher price IPO shares has been offered then without any reason.

3. Then the issuer changed its mind (!), without saying anything (!) and offering shares by buying up buy offers. The community found it (!) out and wrote on bitcointalk: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504128.msg5929687#msg5929687

4. Shareholders could then buy IPO shares, which are sold by issuer in limited tranches. But not directly, just by making an offer on the buy side. How many shares are going to be released and when changed several times, just announcing it afterwards (!)

5. Heavy rise of shareprice began. Alot of shareholders bought for prices up to 1000 % of the IPO price, during the IPO stil running (!), but the shares were strickt limited (!) by owner. Community got worried. Announcement: Update regarding recent price spikes.

6. After heavy rise of share, while stil selling offering IPO shares, but because of the limitation, which was set by the owner very flexibel.
Now the price went down almost 100% in price. We think of a heavy pump and dump price manipulation. We dont know how the owner is involved or supporting that.

7. There is a new announcement made (Want to keep up with the latest developments of RETURN?) to change the IPO Phase rules again. We consider the situation could be a fraud to shareholders.

Because Of that, we are asking for a trade stop or grey listing of the share.

Best regards,

Refreshing basic mind:
Bitcoins are wide known as a virtual trading good spreaded over alot of people and controlled by, IMO, the foundergroup, which first developed e-gold (semantic analysis proofed) got seized by CIA and made than the anonymous e-gold bitcoins.

Classical analysis says, as the tulp mania or glass pearls mania showed us, it cant be. Bitcoins are the glass pearls of the internet time and its technology. BUT this glass pearls are having advantages over the FIAT pearls. So if you feel secure enough investing in glass pearls, which can be used for trading goods, then jump on. When not, then you could miss the train.

Volatility is good for speculants and traders not for Johny in America, neither for John in Deutschland. They are paying their taxes to the speculants, when buying bitcoins. To much truth? Is there an automatic system that the shop owner or privateperson dont pay their tax to the speculant? Not knows yet. Therefor governments prevent the volatility of their currency by their given power of a Central Bank. But the Bitcoin with their volatility is still better as a FIAT with their inflation.

I like your truth much more, its more for the public, what they should know.

Coinreturn gives almost the same profit as Altcoin pumping&dumping. Almost the same, you have a limited supply of new mined coins, people who want to invest and people trading marketprice.

So we saw the pump and now we saw the bombing. I am curious about further 10 days. More bombs? 900 shares on 0.006. Yummi! I guess the people wanted just to buy shares with 25% profit a month. Now they can. And then they will go up for 100% profit of shareprice. 10 days of rollercoster.

China is corrupt. They want that Lee cant buy his bitcoin on the street. He need first going to the bank and buy there a share of a Bitcoinfund. They want to take Bitcoins out of the News too, to keep the people stupid enough to keep their money in FIAT.

[quote auth =bitcasino link=topic=587988.msg6499878#msg6499878 date=1398982506]
If you know the intrinsic value of BTC, then you will know the minimum you need.

[/quote]

  and no one can know that. Human nature is unpredictable.

Good article. Can you make also a second part with elaborating more the Bitcoins role to make a difference to FIAT. Its not coming clear out, besides some  stereotypes.

I always wonder, why the economical schools dont teach their students about money before the 20th century. It seems like their whole nature of knowledge is until Bretton Woods, the good ones going to Black Friday and 1% can analyse in a proper way little more down in time. But how the monetary situation with Contras and Pros before 20th century, if you start speaking about that, everyone think you are crazy.

Therefor all the newby students, or Evan Faggart too, cant think (because he did not learned) to compare limited supply of Bitcoins with before Bretton Woods systems.

spread your money into different, at least 4 positions, but not immediately. to find the right ones you can take time like 3 - 6 months. go for at least 20% a year.

keep a quarter to a half in dollar:
bitfinex offering dollar swaps 20% a year. insured obligations. 100% secure or better go for

https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=johny08 offer 15 % a month(!) trading shares and they are secure. Trading history for over half a year and sponsor of big bitcoin events. investing and absolutely no work for you.

keep a quarter in bitcoin cash

and go for a half for altcoins or what ever risky, less risky...., mining.

Avoid more or less cryptostocks or havelockinvestments thats more or less money buffet for amateur scammers, but you can find there also pearls. but however very very risky and has to be monitored almost every day.

I wrote several times about the crazy rise up to 100% - 300%, so they should supply the IPO more flexibel.

I guess there are more investors, which are going to bomb the price down, the same way it was pushed up. I can just repeat myself 4000 shares were sold for 0.006, so its logical, when someone want to reinvest, he will first bomb down the price. Lets see if they are investors out there with bitcoins in spare and want the price pump up to dump their expensive shares at higher regions.

I am still sceptical to ipo-market-share-price experiments. Some people lose, some win. Ok, there is an emotional show and the losers are paying for that and the winners are gaining. Thats trading pure, but investors intend not to trade they want to invest, because they cant trade, they have a different point of view . So lets see.

The most important thing is that tom and jeff feeling good doing their thing. I support everything they do, its their project, even when sometimes I sound unpolite.

EDIT:
Someone running the bot is making good arbitrage money .

Yeah, you are right. the price for the first (lets say) 4000 shares was about the original market share price 0.006. I hoped in because the ROI was about 30% a month. With collecting money with 0.01 a share this ROI should jump up to 40%.

The most important thing is the Fund itself, how the IPO is organised is quite not the most important thing.

I can just warn people from investing more as they lose. before pushing it, i need to be sure and for that an inside view into the work of the fund create trust (Just my 50 cents).

EDIT:
Good we are today almost back to normality at 0.008. Next big support is on 0.006 and we could stop there.

Great work and compliment to the Fund Management.

1.
My question is, if you could make premium verification on Cryptostocks. However, every project started after 10. April require this type of verification for listing. That would give the project a boost in liability and reputation.

Maybe, you could consider that for a vote, because not everybody is really giving to the verification attention.

2.
My second proposal (sent a PM) is giving out Options for median share price of the last 10 - 30 days, so bulk buyer (300 shares up) can get shares for a reasonable price.

Best regards and thanks for estblishing a trading fund in XBT

Thanks for you advice and answer. Your elaborated analysis quite surpriced me.

What do you mean with 'loop of maturity'? The fund started in November, so + 120 days we are in February, when the first investors could pull back their capital.

The risks are here bigger as in total return swaps (20% a year at bitfinex), but when they are calculatable, its ok for me.

For the near future I dont see a rise in XBT as well no fall. XBT was normally very stable entity. However, when adaption fails or popularity grows again, than I would consider bitcoin-trader as a risky speculative investment. What i can see in the future is a slow rise in difficulty and steady development of the blockchain, what is going to make cryptos very successfull.

Thanks again for your answer.

How long does it takes until btc deposits are shown up? It takes the whole day.... Any experiences?

Thats cool. Its better as rising the shareprice as a ponzi.

20.000 in 2014. The limit is like connected to a limited price of a share, so you can trade with reasonable numbers as XBT and altcoins are a limited market (sorry for the word repetition limit). So i guess its usefull to make a XBT IPO max definition instead of shares max count.

Today they are 700 Shares in the bid and the price rised over 30 % in two days. Thats alot. Do you consider releasing more shares today so I can buy next week stil my 2 shares for a reasonable price and dividend, please. Thanks

sorry, I were not complaining. I am just thinking that 0.02 or 0.03 is a very high price, because trading is a risky business. Completely not comparable with obligations. Therefor a good trader is makinig 30 % a month and Tom & Jeff are good in my eyes, so they can make it. Supporting a project from the beginning is kind of less risk, because in trading you are coming to a point  making a huge loss, its like the probability of a win in lottery, but kind of opposite.

I am also invested in full return swaps with 20 % a year. When you have obligations, thats maybe what you search for too.

cryptostocks is a cashcow, i dont think vircurex is going to slaughter it. Its really a problem to buy alot of shares at ones. I was also complaining about that and it seems there is no possibility to buy 10% of the coinreturn fund at once. thats good and bad at the same time.

YEAH, THAT WOULD BE GREAT./irony TO THE MOON!

My pricemedian is 0.0078 and I thought thats pretty high already. Less as half of the shares were sold for 0.006.

What I read in the media. the bitcoin was founded by members of e-gold. that would make a reasonable answer why they want to keep the bitcoin deregulated and unprofessional managed. once the bitcoin would be professionalised the big money would destroy the profits of small wallett owner.

The approach on bitcoins is buildimg up the technology and microsystem, thats a more sustainable way of building value as getting big money destroy the small guys (ask me for a more precise argumentation). so in a big picture drawn here, facebook will be the microsoft of the future and bitcoin the linux with 1 % marketshare. or the techies learned their lesson and they are strong enough to compete. unfortunately the geek generation has NO idea of finances and the potential of bitcoins. or do they have friends from the market? geeks dont want friends normally. lets see if they will lose again as in the 90es.

not looking good.
Any contribution in this thread is welcome.

Ok. thanks for you comment. i will wait for a longer track of record. waiting aint wrong after 100 % share rise in one month. are you going to release more shares after the 10000?

Historic-Philosphic interesting article about the 'black swan phenomen' http://bitcoinmagazine.com/11784/bitcoin-black-swan-event/



The basics tenets for his Black Swan Theory come in three major criteria. We’ll list the criteria and evaluate whether bitcoin meets the criteria.

1.   The event is a surprise:

Before Bitcoin, there were no examples of a currency unbacked by a nation that could be transferred to anybody in the world without trust. Before the introduction of the internet it would have been impossible.  Outside of a handful of extreme fringe Cryptologists the idea was ridiculous for governments and banking institutions to comprehend. There were no plans to control it or stop it, let alone take it serious enough until it was too late to kill it.

Number one qualification:  Yes.

2.    The event has a major effect.

The currency has thus far reached at its peak about 12 billion dollars in total worth. It was only about 2.5% of the value of Google the search engine company. However now most, if almost all countries in the world know of bitcoin and many have issued warnings or bans for its banking systems to not use it. Bitcoin has created a swell of world-wide supporters and a tight-knit community. It has politicians, bankers, regulators, investors, and scientists scrambling to understand it, control it, profit from it and use it as a catalyst to change the world.

Number two qualification: Yes.

3.  After the first recorded instance of the event, it is rationalized by hindsight, as if it could have been expected.

If we look back at two widely recognized Black Swan Events, we can evaluate the hindsight rationalization. With the Internet, we can now see that because of all the personal computers that were purchased in the 80s and early 90s…it was OBVIOUS that they were going to eventually going to be connected to share in in electronic mail and read the news. For 9/11 afterwards, “experts” suddenly connected the dots of rising anti-Americanism in the radical parts of the Muslim world. They suddenly “remembered” the bungled attempt to bring  the World Trade Center buildings down with a car bomb in the underground parking lot a few years earlier and it was “obvious” that this same kind of thing was going to happen again.

Is bitcoin yet being analyzed and rationalized using a lens of history? Are we at a point yet where we have enough data available for businesses to create risk mitigation programs? Perhaps the jury is still out on this one. It’s still in the beginning stages and history has yet to decide where this bitcoin experiment will sit in the annals of history.

Number three qualification: – Undecided.


Bitcoin may be that Black Swan we’ve been waiting for.

Facebooks is going to ask for a bank license so it can distribute peer-to-peer money transactions.

It took over Transwise, which already did more as a billion in transactions and together with whatsapp and facebook, which is installed on almost every smartphone its going to be the new number one.

Backed with Peter Thiel, In-Q-Tel an investment department of the CIA, which are also sitting in Facebooks Board they have the tech Elite and Governmant support.

Hard to break?

What is having Bitcoin? The Bitcoin Foundation? https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/board

LOL

I am having the feeling they are not playing in the same league.