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10401  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation [Picture Heavy] on: May 16, 2015, 11:38:16 PM
No. Bitcoin is a decentralized system where people do not need to trust a third party in order to send money to the third party. Either you need to trust the third party, or the third party needs to trust you if you are to send money to the third party.

Are you just not hearing yourself? In one sentence you say Bitcoin is a decentralized system where people do not need to trust a third party, then the very next sentence says "Either you need to trust the third party or the third party needs to trust you." Those statements are contradictory and is indicative of the fact that you don't understand how bitcoin works. I will touch more on that below.
Why don't you explain the below two things and I will bother responding to the rest of your post:

  • How does Bitcoin require you to trust a bank, or other similar third party when you are either holding onto your bitcoin or spending your bitcoin?
  • How is it possible to trade bitcoin for fiat without either party trusting the other party in any way whatsoever (nor them trusting any other person)?
10402  Economy / Invites & Accounts / Re: Buying Localbitcoins Account on: May 16, 2015, 11:10:40 PM
I have sent a pm op
I don't think the OP is actually interested in paying for an account. Another seller had previously agreed to a sale, and once escrow was agreed to the OP disappeared.
10403  Other / Meta / Re: TheButterZone Removed From Default Trust on: May 16, 2015, 10:46:53 PM
Libeler (OP) has default trust T2, libeler's victim (me) was wiped from T2=injustice done.

You are both in the default trust network at depth 2.
I think BadBear recently added him to his trust list. TBZ was not previously in default trust network (level 2) for a while now.
10404  Economy / Auctions / Re: 2013 Lealana 1 BTC Silver + Gold Hologram MS-68 [Funded][Ends May 15 4PM EST] on: May 16, 2015, 10:29:26 PM
I couldnt pay intime because I bought coins from somebody with 150 green trust on May 10th, and I sent first, because hey, 150 green trust. and they were all like yeah Ill send the coins right away, next day nothing, and so here we are 6 days later.

I advised this person that I needed the coin to pay quicksilver by 4pm EST today. and you know what time the asshole sent the coins? 5pm.
Do you have the funds to pay your bid now?

My 1.4BTC offer is still here and i can pay instantly  Grin
I'll keep that in mind, but there are a number of people that need to not pay their bid before I can sell it to you Smiley

What are the odds that like 5 people are gonna back out ?  Grin
It would actually only be there people that would need to back out, one of which already has. If you are interested, then feel free to make an offer on any of the other Lealana coins that I have up for sale Smiley

I'm interested in this MS-68, it seems like this is the only MS-68 you got  Undecided
Yea, it is the only MS-68 that I have. Coins that grade that high tend to sell at pretty large premiums because they are so rare. There are only 5 or 6 MS-68 graded coins that I have seen sold on this forum.

I would sell sell one to you at the high bid amount, however I only have the one and I don't want to back out of my obligations as a seller to the winner of the auction.
10405  Economy / Auctions / Re: 2013 Lealana 1 BTC Silver + Gold Hologram MS-68 [Funded][Ends May 15 4PM EST] on: May 16, 2015, 10:18:14 PM
I couldnt pay intime because I bought coins from somebody with 150 green trust on May 10th, and I sent first, because hey, 150 green trust. and they were all like yeah Ill send the coins right away, next day nothing, and so here we are 6 days later.

I advised this person that I needed the coin to pay quicksilver by 4pm EST today. and you know what time the asshole sent the coins? 5pm.
Do you have the funds to pay your bid now?

My 1.4BTC offer is still here and i can pay instantly  Grin
I'll keep that in mind, but there are a number of people that need to not pay their bid before I can sell it to you Smiley

What are the odds that like 5 people are gonna back out ?  Grin
It would actually only be there people that would need to back out, one of which already has. If you are interested, then feel free to make an offer on any of the other Lealana coins that I have up for sale Smiley
10406  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation [Picture Heavy] on: May 16, 2015, 09:56:38 PM
Is there any chance you could exclude when other people trust DefaultTrust? I don't think it is really necessary to show when others trust DefaultTrust because almost everyone has it in their trust network, and it really just adds clutter to the graphs.

I guess I could, but then where do we stop? Don't show any upward trust? Don't show any cross depth trust?
Well it is well known that almost everyone trusts DefaultTrust, so we don't need a chart to tell us that. If trust relationship's to DefaultTrust were removed, then it would be easier to come to other conclusions regarding the trust system.
10407  Economy / Auctions / Re: 2013 Lealana 1 BTC Silver + Gold Hologram MS-68 [Funded][Ends May 15 4PM EST] on: May 16, 2015, 09:46:50 PM
I couldnt pay intime because I bought coins from somebody with 150 green trust on May 10th, and I sent first, because hey, 150 green trust. and they were all like yeah Ill send the coins right away, next day nothing, and so here we are 6 days later.

I advised this person that I needed the coin to pay quicksilver by 4pm EST today. and you know what time the asshole sent the coins? 5pm.
Do you have the funds to pay your bid now?

My 1.4BTC offer is still here and i can pay instantly  Grin
I'll keep that in mind, but there are a number of people that need to not pay their bid before I can sell it to you Smiley
10408  Economy / Auctions / Re: 2013 Lealana 1 BTC Silver + Gold Hologram MS-68 [Funded][Ends May 15 4PM EST] on: May 16, 2015, 09:38:24 PM
I couldnt pay intime because I bought coins from somebody with 150 green trust on May 10th, and I sent first, because hey, 150 green trust. and they were all like yeah Ill send the coins right away, next day nothing, and so here we are 6 days later.

I advised this person that I needed the coin to pay quicksilver by 4pm EST today. and you know what time the asshole sent the coins? 5pm.
Do you have the funds to pay your bid now?
10409  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation [Picture Heavy] on: May 16, 2015, 08:09:10 PM
Is there any chance you could exclude when other people trust DefaultTrust? I don't think it is really necessary to show when others trust DefaultTrust because almost everyone has it in their trust network, and it really just adds clutter to the graphs.
10410  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: EvBitcoinFan is a scammer that took our money and voided the shipping. on: May 16, 2015, 03:22:38 PM
I am fairly confident that once you repay any money you scammed that your dox will be taken down. Your hacking claim is 100% BS
10411  Economy / Services / Re: Need Escrow service on: May 16, 2015, 03:03:41 PM
I can help you. I would charge 1%, or .0075 BTC whichever is greater (which happens to be the same in this case). Just start a group PM with myself and the person you are trading with and I'll get an escrow agreement written up for you 😎
10412  Other / Meta / Re: PICISI (Philanthropic Investment and Charity for Inventions, Startups, an Ideas) on: May 16, 2015, 01:01:44 PM
-snip-
Vod, is this your doings? Creating imposter accounts that are meant to appear be an account associated with someone that takes money from others (be it donations or otherwise) is generally considered scammy behavior. Although this may or may not be the intention, it would be very easy to use this account to get Armis's customers/sponsors/donators to give you money when that is not the intention.

Look at my post history, this account didn't appear to falsely accuse a project. Show proofs and stop being a cry baby. You don't answer questions and you look your thread. There's no credibility in your actions so far. Try to take the identity of an other entity is what scammer might be pushed to do. Are you a scammer VOD?
can armis confirm this?
10413  Economy / Lending / Re: ★★ Offering micro-loan for everyone with and without collateral ★★ on: May 16, 2015, 11:40:43 AM
All collateral should be held by a trusted third party.
10414  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation on: May 16, 2015, 11:37:11 AM
I personally think a better reaction would be to exclude them from your trust network and to ignore their future comments.

Have you done that with everyone that has written false things about you?   You haven't left any negative feedback to someone who hasn't scammed?
Everyone hasn't gotten to that point but once they get annoying enough they do make their way onto my ignore list after I explain why they are wrong.

I have not given negative trust to anyone that has not scammed, tried to scam, acted in extremely unethical ways, or showed strong evidence of the above.

If they slander myself (or someone else) then they just lost all of my respect, and would trade/interact accordingly.
10415  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation on: May 16, 2015, 07:34:29 AM
Well my point is that just because someone is libeling you does not make them a scammer.

Maybe not a scammer, but certainly untrustworthy.  TS for example, tried for months to damage my credibility with libel.  In my mind, that makes him untrustworthy and I left the appropriate trust.
I personally think a better reaction would be to exclude them from your trust network and to ignore their future comments.

While I don't think TECHShARE makes valid points regarding the trust system, I don't think he is a scammer and would trust him with my money. I think giving him negative trust only gives more people an incentive to troll you
10416  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation on: May 16, 2015, 07:24:40 AM
Someone that, over time, slanders others, will eventually make their way onto people's ignore list. If you really are as honest as others believe you to be (and as I believe you to be) (and as you present yourself to be) then no one will take such slander without proof.

Just because proof is an absolute defense to libel/slander does not mean that libel/slander lacking proof isn't a revocation of trust-worthy offense in any just society.
Well my point is that just because someone is libeling you does not make them a scammer. There are plenty of examples both here and in the real world when people have libeled others, could not back up their claims with facts and then lost credibility. (FWIW, you still appear in my trust list and I have not excluded you from my list- therefore I personally find your ratings credible)
10417  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation on: May 16, 2015, 07:08:45 AM
One look at the DefaultTrust network, especially at depth 2 reveals what a sham the whole system is. Many of those in tier 2 use the system as a weapon and give negative feedback that has nothing to do with trust or no trust. Heck, a fair portion of those in or previously in tier 1 have done the same thing. Tell me, how are those people any more trustworthy than a random person on the internet? The answer is, they aren't. They should not be trusted by default.
I disagree. People who engage in this kind of practice tend to get removed from the default trust network pretty quickly. There are plenty of examples of people getting removed quickly after engaging in this kind of activity. There are also a lot of examples of people claiming abuse when there is really none that results in people not being removed - these people are almost universally scammers.

And then there's my example, where someone aggressively libeled me, I defended myself the only way I could afford to (can't afford a lawyer), I got removed from default trust T2 x2 as if I was one of those "almost universally scammers", and the aggressor still remains at T2 off BadBear's T1, 6 months later, an eternity in internet time.



For justice why should libelers' ratings be endorsed by default trust
While I don't think that slander/libel is appropriate, I do not think that slander makes someone a scammer. If someone were to engage in slander then their credibility will be diminished as others can see that what they say is wrong.

Someone that, over time, slanders others, will eventually make their way onto people's ignore list. If you really are as honest as others believe you to be (and as I believe you to be) (and as you present yourself to be) then no one will take such slander without proof.
10418  Other / Meta / Re: PICISI (Philanthropic Investment and Charity for Inventions, Startups, an Ideas) on: May 16, 2015, 06:43:39 AM
From the looks of the OP of the OP's thread for PICISI and what I have read about in this thread, it appears that the OP is trying to create a competing company to kickstarter/indigato that utilizes crypt currencies.

I cannot speak for kickstarter/indigato however it appears that the OP's company is going to work with charities to accept donations on their behalf (and may even specialize in charities).

I don't think the OP is tiring to pass off his company as being a charity, I do understand why, at first glance why someone may think it is a charity. I do not however understand why someone would think as much after reading the OP's responses.

While it is possible that the OP is hoping to run off with a large amount of bitcoin after being trust with large amounts, the same could be said about most bitcoin related companies so I don't think this is a valid argument to say that the OP is a scammer
10419  Economy / Services / Re: [BIT-X.com] Earn Bitcoins by Posting | Signature Campaign on: May 16, 2015, 06:37:00 AM
Is there any update as to when I should expect the remainder of my payment? Per my calculations the bot owes me .2213 BTC from last month. When you get a chance I would also like to discuss the terms of next month's contract if possible - I pinged you on Skype but did not get any kind of reply

I'll be available in a few hours.
Sounds good. Just want to be sure that you haven't forgotten.
10420  Other / Meta / Re: Default Trust Visualisation on: May 16, 2015, 06:27:02 AM
You are right that is not what Bitcoin is about. However Bitcoin is also not about determining who is appropriate who can be trusted. The question if a node will accept a Bitcoin transaction is very black and white while if someone is trustworthy is extremely subjective. There is really no criteria that can determine if someone has scammed in the past and good judgement really needs to be used.

I can say that I was a supporter of the default trust system long before I was a part of the default trust network. I can also say that the default trust system was able to protect me from a number of scams when I was a newer user.

Prior to the default trust system there was the scammer tag system which was even more centralized and was reactive instead of the proactive system that is in place today.

What would you propose using instead of the current system in place currently?

What? Of course bitcoin is about determining who is appropriate to be trusted. That's exactly what it's about. It's about giving the power back to the user to trust those they wish to trust and not be forced to trust those they don't wish to trust. Bitcoin does not say "You will only connect to these trusted nodes unless you configure otherwise." it says "You will connect to everyone and decide who you wish to exclude."
No. Bitcoin is a decentralized system where people do not need to trust a third party in order to send money to the third party. Either you need to trust the third party, or the third party needs to trust you if you are to send money to the third party.  
It does not say "You will process only these transactions that you agree with and trust."
It says "You will process all transactions unless you choose to exclude them."
No. The Bitcoin protocol says that a node will process all transactions unless the transaction is invalid. This means that even if a scam transaction is valid, it will be included in the next block (assuming that the pool's tx policy allows such transaction to be included based on it's tx policy, the size of the tx fee and the size of the tx). The fact that a tx is potentially part of a scam will not at all be considered when deciding if a tx will be accepted/confirmed or not.
If the default trust system protected you from a number of scams as a newer user, that's on you. I simply don't understand (and I admit that perhaps I am in the minority here) why people can't spot a scam.
Lack of experience. The fact that, for all intensive purposes Bitcoin transactions cannot be reversed, and that for all intensive purposes, that Bitcoin transactions are anonymous changes the landscape in which scams happen. If I were to accept a check from someone after personally checking their ID (in person) then I most likely could take them to court and/or press criminal charges then the check turns out to be somehow fraudulent, while the same cannot be said with bitcoin deals.
Or barring being able to spot a scam, why they don't take precautions to prevent being scammed, such as using escrow.
In order to use escrow, you need to know who is trustworthy enough to trust them with your money. Without a good trust system to allow me to make this determination then using escrow is worthless. As mentioned previously, in a decentralized system, the scammers will appear trustworthy, so scammers would simply start offering escrow services and would steal money via escrow.
If you were naive enough to get scammed here by these amatuer scams, then you have much larger problems.
A good number of the scams are here are far from amateur. A good number of them are pretty advanced and take a good amount of research to detect.
Being protected by little tin gods on a forum is only going to further your vulnerability elsewhere, as you will become reliant on the nanny system to protect you. If what you say is true, Bitcointalk DefaultTrust has done you far more harm than good. But that is a different argument we can have elsewhere if you want.
As mentioned above, it is primarily the lack of experience that allows people to get scammed.

Piggybacking on my previous example of accepting a check from someone, if I were to sell my car and accept a check from someone, then after the check bounces for whatever reason, then I could have the title reversed back into my name after proving that I never received payment and could report the car as being stolen.
The prior system was a joke as well... the scammer tag was unevenly applied and was completely arbitrary. The "new" trust system is equally a joke, just a larger one. But let me state it again, since it seems to have been lost. I am not saying we should remove the trust system. I am saying we should remove DefaultTrust as new user enforced trusted entity. It should be removed. Everything else can remain in place and it will function MUCH better for everyone involved.
The use of a system where everyone's trust ratings are equally untrusted would be much worse. It would be impossible to tell which ratings are legitimate and whose are not.
One look at the DefaultTrust network, especially at depth 2 reveals what a sham the whole system is. Many of those in tier 2 use the system as a weapon and give negative feedback that has nothing to do with trust or no trust. Heck, a fair portion of those in or previously in tier 1 have done the same thing. Tell me, how are those people any more trustworthy than a random person on the internet? The answer is, they aren't. They should not be trusted by default.
I disagree. People who engage in this kind of practice tend to get removed from the default trust network pretty quickly. There are plenty of examples of people getting removed quickly after engaging in this kind of activity. There are also a lot of examples of people claiming abuse when there is really none that results in people not being removed - these people are almost universally scammers.
That is the point I am making. I am not saying get rid of the trust system, I'm not even saying get rid of DefaultTrust. I am saying stop making DefaultTrust enforced by default. Make it "SuggestedTrust" or something similar that a user can add if they so desire, but the trust list should be empty by default - meaning you don't trust anyone.
There is nothing that forces anyone to use it at all. However without it there would be nothing that would allow newer users from knowing who can be trusted and who should not be.
As a side point, and perhaps I should post this elsewhere... but what the hell. It's easy enough to get a green rating, you just seek out someone in tier 1 or 2 and do a few small trades with them. Bingo, green rating. But that's the rub - you have to trade with those in tier 1 or 2. If you just go about your business on the forum without explicitly seeking out tier 1 or 2 members (or run across them by accident), any ratings you get are irrelevant and meaningless. So again, we are back to the men in the ivory tower deciding who is trustworthy and who isn't. As long as you don't piss off the people in tier 1 and 2, you will remain neutral. If you seek to appease them, they will bestow some green upon you.
The people who freely give out positive ratings when nothing is risked for a single trade should be removed from the default trust network. If someone were to engage in this kind of practice then they will not be reputable and their ratings will not be taken seriously.
What a shitty system.
You are welcome to have your opinion.
@tspacepilot - stop shilling to try to get your negative trust removed - you are a scammer even though you are very good at lying your way out of taking responsibility
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