During the ICO this is correct.  But I think Spatters is saying that a low launch price for Lisk means a bigger price pop when it goes on sale at exchanges.

However, I think that if you go for a quick profit on the exchanges you are going to miss a huge long-term price gain for Lisk.  A $1M+ tech development fund has the potential to evolve Lisk into the sidechain / dapp engine of choice.  

Lisk is a long term investment.  The ICO and even early exchange price swings are not how to make money on this project.  This is a buy and hodl hodl hodl coin.

Yesterday was indeed a slow day compared to the five days before it, but the ICO is still getting significant daily donations.  Since last UTC midnight another 91+ BTC has been donated beyond that shown below.

DAY   1&2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

BTC 801.3 43.5 131.8 109.0 190.2 107.0 63.5 69.0 113.1 174.9 314.9 275.8 343.4 95.2

If we average 100 BTC every day for the rest of the Lisk ICO we will break 4000+ actual donated BTC worth around $410 each.   Our cash development fund would then be over $1.6M to further improve Lisk.

In comparison, the Ethereum ICO raised 31,591 BTC which were worth around $580 each at the time.  The price of Bitcoin plunged shortly thereafter, and Ethereum lost over half of what it had raised.

Can you please post the official BTC count for 15%, 10% and 5% when you get those?  I will adjust my spreadsheets with this data.

Yeah, I put that phrase in the wrong place.  Corrected, thanks.

BTC investors are NOT bailing out XCR bag holders in this ICO!

THERE IS NOT A ONE-FOR-ONE EXCHANGE OF CRYPTI XCR FOR LISK.

XCR members joining Lisk are getting their donations capped at the fair market value (at Poloniex, for example) of 1300 satoshi per XCR.    You can see that by going to the "How many Lisk will I get for my XCR" spreadsheet link in my other post above.  At present, the number is 0.274 Lisk will be issued for every Crypti XCR donated, and that number continues to drop as more BTC shows up.  A Lisk is currently worth 4759 Satoshi.  If you trade in ONE Crypti XCR, you currently get 0.274 Lisk and your new Lisk holding is worth 0.274 * 4759 = 1300 satoshi (with minor roundoff error).  

Now look at the "How many Lisk will I get for my BTC" spreadsheet.  If you trade in ONE Bitcoin, you currently get 21,100 Lisk and your new Lisk holding is worth 21,100 * 4759 = 100,000,000 satoshi (with minor roundoff error), which is exactly 1 BTC.

As noted in my post above, so far there have been 773 BTC worth of XCR donated to Lisk at the fixed fair market rate of 1300 satoshi and 2900 actual BTC donated at the adjustable fair market rate of 4759 satoshi per Lisk and rising.   The 773 BTC donated by Crypti holders is the fair market value of all the currently existing Version 0.5.5 sidechain / dapp software that Lisk will use at launch.  The Version 0.5.5 sidechain / dapp software used to launch Lisk is NOT VAPORWARE and its use does not come to the new BTC donors for free.  Utilization of that software as a starting point is currently priced fairly at 773 BTC.  The BTC donations of 2900+ will be used as a cash development fund to IMPROVE THIS CODE BASE and create Lisk Version 0.5.6 and beyond.

To summarize, the value of XCR donations are are capped at 1300 satoshi per coin; the value of BTC donations are continuously adjusted upward to get the current Lisk satoshi value (currently 4759 and rising).  That capped vs. continuous adjustment factor is what keeps the XCR folks from being "bailed out" by the BTC donors!

XCR donators have created a solid sidechain / dapp code base foundation and the new BTC donators are providing funding to improve it.   XCR and BTC donors are not opponents here.  We are all members of the new Lisk team!

At this time about 2900 "new" BTC have been raised, creating a $1.2 million cash technical development fund. About 775 BTC have been transferred over from Crypti, and this represents the fair market value of the Version 0.5.5 code base that Lisk will use at launch.  About 346 BTC have been given out in "early participation" rewards to kickstart the Lisk ICO and build a much larger community than existed at Crypti.  These BTC are effectively an advertising expense that has generated over 8 BTC for every 1 advertising BTC spent.   The growing Lisk community is now in the high hundreds / low thousands of people who represents a tangible asset easily worth what has been spent in advertising to get them organized.

These numbers are detailed and updated in the upper left corner of the following public spreadsheets tracking the Lisk ICO.

How Many Lisk You Will Receive For One Bitcoin (BTC)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iOEdaRnBmSAO5miW7xYheeYUgo5wL9l9BONw6x21nQg/edit?usp=sharing

How Many Lisk You Will Receive For One Crypti (XCR)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GwWKK7bpjYTxtQRIq_l2xiKI9rEOpTU1oTt0q3C6Mc8/edit?usp=sharing

The Satoshi Price For One Lisk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q2MJ25_bK5Yi60FYohYCUEkujUtL5c0P1dOdlDMPMBI/edit?usp=sharing

Boris, please talk about using slow sidechain blocktimes (longer than 10 seconds) and if this can allow or enable good sidechain operation at high internet latency.  Can the 0.5.5 code do this now?

Boris , pozhaluysta, govorit' ob ispol'zovanii medlennykh Sidechain blocktimes ( boleye 10 sekund) , i yesli on mozhet pozvolit' ili vklyuchit' khoroshuyu rabotu bokovoy tsepi s vysokoy latentnosti seti Internet . Mozhet li 0.5.5 kod , chtoby sdelat' eto seychas?

Борис , пожалуйста , говорить об использовании медленных Sidechain blocktimes ( более 10 секунд ) , и если это может позволить или включить хорошую работу боковой цепи при высокой латентности интернет . Может ли 0.5.5 код сделать это сейчас ?

Explain in Russian if you want  

Ob"yasnite, na russkom yazyke , yesli vy khotite

Объясните, на русском языке , если вы хотите

Hey risinhigher
Here's my response to your FUD crap

LISK HOLDS THE FOLLOWING ADVANTAGES OVER ETHERIUM:

Javascript language simplicity vs Solidity language complexity
Like I said ... easy to write a Javascript compiler to Ethereum bytecode  
Let me know when it's done...or even started.  Even if an Ethereum JavaScript compiler  existed, Solidity is still an unstable language - why paste a compiler on top of it?

100,000+ JavaScript programmers vs. few Solidity programmers
The above argument eliminates this so called advantage of lisk
The above argument is vaporware.  JavaScript programmers can start coding Lisk dapps right now.

Single hash generated  vs. trillions of valid but discarded hashes generated to secure blockchain in one blocktime
Makes no sense at all
I've explained this several times.  Churning out trillions of wasted hashes means lots of wasted electricity - like literally a nuclear powerplant's worth for Bitcoin - and is an ever-growing financial overhead that will ultimately kill the coin.

Cooperative, efficient blockchain generation vs. competitive, wasteful blockchain generation
looks like the same as above
No, it's the key reason Lisk can run on a $9 CHIP computer and Ethereum can't.  Economies of scale hugely favor Lisk over BTC/ETH.

Stable roundtable clockwork forging vs. unsustainable, exponentially growing free-for-all mining
Forging is no different than mining ... just different ways to make the currency
It is so sad to see people that don't understand enough math to get why exponential growth is unsustainable, or why a stable system is different and better from an unstable one.

Dapps on individual sidechains vs. dapps on bloated mainchain
Ethereum dapps are also sidechains .. lol .. you seem to be uninformed
The Ethereum Guide says its dapps are deployed on the mainchain ( https://gavofyork.gitbooks.io/turboethereum/content/dapps_deployment.html ).  Practically, in Ethereum dapps are just specialized "contracts".  There's my showdown cards in this poker hand - what's your counter-reference to prove what you are saying about Ethereum sidechains?  Prove to me that each dapp in Ethereum has its own separate blockchain as they do in Lisk.

Min of 2-4 to max of 101 cheap $35 Pi2 / $9 CHIP microcomputers needed for each sidechain backbone vs. large, unlimited numbers of expensive GPU systems needed for mainchain backbone
The GPU rings will not be used once POS for eth sets in
So...PoS for ETH is vaporware, got it.  How can you know that Eth PoS will run on microcomputers like Lisk does if ETH PoS finally shows up?  What happens to all those sad little GPU miners whose income stream will be cut off?

Sidechain dapps permanently free vs. mainchain perpetual "gas" payments required
Ah ... What can possibly be the use of the beloved LISK then ...
What part of "free" vs. "paying for ETH gas" is so hard to understand?  Free is better.  Lisk is still the exchange coin of choice within the dapp itself.

He asked for an explanation.  It's a complicated subject.   

The amount you will receive has gone down to 1/4, but it's four times more valuable.  The value of what you have been given for your original donation has stayed exactly the same.

Hey, it's just somthin' to do while I kill time until the next meeting with my parole officer.

Ok, here we go.  

In this ICO there are two kinds of coins that can be donated:  XCR (Crypti) and BTC (Bitcoin).  XCR is "old money" that was already donated in mid-2014 and funded the code base (Version 0.5.5) that Lisk will deploy in April.  BTC is "new money" that is creating a cash pool to fund further development beyond Version 0.5.5.  

These two coins have to be treated differently.  

XCR is valued at a fixed fair market price of 1300 satoshi per XCR, which is roughly what you would find if you went to the Poloniex exchange where Crypti has been trading since Sept 2014.  You can't trade Lisk one-per-one for Crypti because only 85M Lisk is being given out in the Lisk ICO and there are 100M Crypti.  So you have to trade the Crypti in at 1300 satoshi each for Lisk.  Another way of saying this is every 1M XCR is worth 13 BTC.  

BTC donations are complicated because there are bonus factors of 15%, 10%, 5% and 0% given depending on which week you donate.  

Thus ACTUAL BTC donations (in green) have to be modified into "EFFECTIVE" BTC totals (in orange) that have the appropriate bonus added.  Similarly, the XCR has to be converted to "EFFECTIVE" BTC at 13 BTC per 1M XCR (in blue).  

So as of March 8 at 1AM Universal Coordinated Time (UTC), we see that:

42.9 XCR have been donated so far, valued at 42.9 * 13 = 557.7 BTC (blue / orange)

1350 BTC were donated the first week of the ICO, valued with bonus at 1350 * 1.15 = 1552.5 BTC (green / orange)

1300 BTC were donated the second week of the ICO, valued with bonus at 1350 * 1.10 = 1430.0 BTC (green / orange)

87.25 BTC have been donated so far in the third week of the ICO, valued with bonus at 87.25 * 1.05 = 91.6 BTC (green / orange)

So a total of 1350.00 +1300.00 +87.25 = 2737.25 (green) ACTUAL NEW BTC have been donated so far.  This BTC forms the "Lisk Development Cash-On-Hand" fund to finance new Lisk code development.   This cash amount is found by multiplying actual BTC by the USD/BTC exchange rate from coinmarketcap.com.  So 2737.25 * 410.72 = $ 1,124,243  available to hire programmers to further develop Lisk.

Now to answer the top question of the spreadsheet:  I gave them one BTC, how many thousand Lisk am I gonna get?   The question is highlighted in yellow, so follow the yellow stripe to the red number : 23.4 thousand Lisk will be given out for every BTC that is DONATED IN THE LAST WEEK WITH 0% BONUS.  If you donated your BTC in the FIRST week, you will get 15% more Lisk or 23.4 * 1.15 = 26.9 thousand Lisk.  

How do you know this is right?  Because the total Lisk to be distributed is a fixed 85,000,000, and 85,000,000 / 3631.8 = 23,404.  The 3631.8 (the dark orange number) is NOT the ACTUAL BTC, it is the "EFFECTIVE" BTC total donated that has all the XCR fixed conversion and BTC early donation bonuses mixed in.

So, if nobody donated anything else except for one last BTC receiving no bonus at one minute before the ICO ended, then that person donating that last no-bonus BTC would get 23,404 Lisk.

The problem is, the ICO goes on for another two weeks.  More people are going to come in, some with more XCR, some with BTC at 5% bonus and some the last week with BTC at 0 % bonus.  The Lisk being given out is fixed at 85M, so if more people come to claim some of it, the share handed out has got to be reduced even more from what it is now.  All the numbers in the light yellow area are just what the reduced amounts are going to be at various scenarios of future XCR and BTC donations.  

Say more BTC is donated for a final amount of 2900 actual BTC donated by the last day of the ICO.  Then the Lisk given out for one BTC will be 22,400 per BTC, not the current value of 23,400.  

Or say only one last BTC is donated on the last day of the ICO, but all the XCR gets turned in, all 100M of it worth an equivalent 1300BTC.   Then the guy that turned in that last BTC will get 19,400 Lisk instead of the current 22,400.  

There are an infinite number of BTC / XCR donation combinations that can occur between now and the end of the ICO.  The spreadsheet lists not only the current scenario as a red number, but all the other potential scenarios as other declining numbers.  

So why show so many possibilities when only one will occur?  So people can understand the process, and in particular, to show that their final value of Lisk received is variable depending on who else shows up.

The other bottom satoshi chart shows how much the value of Lisk has to go up to match the decline in share holdings to keep the donation value constant.  For every entry in one spreadsheet there is an entry in the other.  They are a matched pair that work together to insure that nobody gains or loses money during the ICO.  

THE VALUE OF A DONATION IS HELD CONSTANT DURING THE ICO NO MATTER HOW LOW YOUR LISK HOLDING SHARE GOES.

On the last day of the ICO, the red Satoshi value in the yellow highlighted area is the "fair market starting value" at an exchange where Lisk can be bought or sold.  

What will ACTUALLY happen on Day One of exchange sales of Lisk...well, that will be interesting to see.

LOL.  Max and Olivier announced the existence of Lisk to everybody else in the whole world on Jan 30, only 37 days ago.  To go from announcement of a brand new forked coin to a $1.1M+ and growing cash development fund in only 37 days -  things are happening really fast from my point of view....

From a previous post a few pages back

LISK HOLDS THE FOLLOWING ADVANTAGES OVER ETHERIUM:

Javascript language simplicity vs Solidity language complexity

100,000+ JavaScript programmers vs. few Solidity programmers

Single hash generated  vs. trillions of valid but discarded hashes generated to secure blockchain in one blocktime

Cooperative, efficient blockchain generation vs. competitive, wasteful blockchain generation

Stable roundtable clockwork forging vs. unsustainable, exponentially growing free-for-all mining

Dapps on individual sidechains vs. dapps on bloated mainchain

Min of 2-4 to max of 101 cheap $35 Pi2 / $9 CHIP microcomputers needed for each sidechain backbone vs. large, unlimited numbers of expensive GPU systems needed for mainchain backbone

Sidechain dapps permanently free vs. mainchain perpetual "gas" payments required

Here's the Crypti price history, click on "all".

https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_xcr

Crypti has evolved.  Its original focus was ten-second block time to support merchants that needed fast confirmation times using "Crypti - The Coin For Commerce!".    Crypti was the first cryptocoin written in JavaScript / node.js (and thus not a Bircoin clone), and the key point of cooperative forging with no need for expensive miners was there from the beginning.  Crypti worked great in a testbed with 50 nodes.  But when Crypti went live and tried to scale to a larger number of nodes, it failed.  Turns out too many nodes cannot synchronize with each other in ten seconds.  The merchant / commerce focus was dropped and Crypti became a science project to perfect something called "Proof of Time" (PoT) - infinite nodes synchronizing within ten seconds to determine who had the longest uptime.  PoT ultimately failed and Crypti was "patched / frozen" into the current fixed number 101 delegate roundtable with ten second blocktime, which works fine.  The devs looked at each other and said "Now what?" - and in mid-to late 2015 a completely different software pivot to add sidechains / dapps was made.  

Crypti sidechains / dapps work really, really  well.  We shoulda been working on that all along.  

So...most of original 750 BTC Crypti tech dev fund was blown on BTC depreciation and  the PoT failure.  But not all the funds were gone before some cool sidechain / dapp tech was developed that will now live on as Lisk.

Crypti dapps platform did not fail.  All available Crypti development funds (750 BTC collected in mid-2014) were used to complete development of Version 0.5.5 of Crypti software supporting sidechains / dapps.  This Version 0.5.5 software was made open source (a first for the current Crypti version, I think), placed in Github, and preparations were being made to replace the Version 0.5.4 Crypti software currently in use with this new Version 0.5.5.

At that time (Jan 2016), Crypti faced significant challenges.  Development funds were at zero and several original core developers were moving on to other projects.  Also, there was disorder among the 101 Crypti servers used to secure the blockchain.   These servers were run by volunteers receiving minimal rewards to cover their server costs.   Many original Crypti participants dropped out of the project and took their node servers offline.  More recent recruits did not stand up operational node servers as replacements as they should have.  Votes by all Crypti coin holders were not effectively utilized to keep operational servers in the top circle of 101 delegates.  
 
There were discussions and eventually disagreements among members of the Crypti Foundation members on what to do next.  To make a long story short, on Feb 1 Max and Olivier made a surprise move to create a fork of open-source Crypti called Lisk, start significant forging rewards of 150K in Year One for Lisk forgers to motivate their ongoing node participation, and start a fund-raising ICO to support a fresh technical development staff to develop Lisk 0.5.6 and beyond.

And here we are, five weeks later.

Yep.  If you don't like what you read, then don't donate a single satoshi and just move right on to the next Bitcointalk thread.


Oh, you're still here!

Stop spreading lies.  The Lisk ICO has received donations of over a million US dollars targeted to hire future staff and further develop this coin, and you know this.  The LISK ICO is only half over and may very well raise another million dollars to hire even more tech staff.  These aren't two guys saying they personally are the coin tech development staff; these are two guys LESS THAN 40 DAYS INTO THE PROCESS of raising the money to HIRE a coin tech development staff.  You know this too.  

The funds now exist to hire a GREAT tech staff.  One that is even (dare I say it) gonna be on par with the Ethereum tech staff (at least, the part that hasn't been laid off).

The whole point of the fixed 8% for Max and Olivier was to isolate their deserved reward for starting Lisk from this growing $1M+ CASH tech-dev fund.  By having a fixed 8% stake that could ultimately balloon into much more money than the cash development fund if Lisk is well received on the market, Max and Olivier are motiviated to make that ballooning growth actually happen.  The big reward for them is NOT to dip into the growing $1M CASH tech-dev fund; their big reward is to make the value of their fixed 8% share explode through solid accomplishments.  I want them to have that motivation so they make the value of MY Lisk explode.  

Unmotivated people don't accomplish crap.  If you think I'm wrong, then quit spreading lies about the Lisk founders, go start your own coin, set your own founder reward share at 0%, and come back here to tell us all how that went for you.

The main difference is that Lisk uses a cooperative, highly efficient system to add blocks to its blockchain, while Ethereum (like Bitcoin) uses a competitive, highly-wasteful system.  

Lisk calls their process "forging" (in the "blacksmith" sense of the word) and uses a continuous voting process to select the 101 people - and only 101 - with the best credentials to run network nodes.   These people cooperate and take turns adding blocks to the blockchain, one ever ten seconds.  Any particular person's turn to add a block comes every 17 minutes, and they are paid a flat fee of 5 Lisk at that time.  Only one hash is made to secure the block.  This means very cheap computers can be used like a $35 Raspberry Pi 2 or $9 CHIP to run a Lisk node, although a very low-latency internet connection is required because of the clockwork-like timing of the Lisk system.

Ethereum (and Bitcoin) have competitive mining.  Anybody can try to become a miner and spend lots of money on expensive, fast equipment that can generate cryptographic hashes.  Instead of voting, Bitcoin / Ethereum adjusts a "difficulty factor" that sets how many leading zeros the hash must have to "win" the right to forge a block and be rewarded with coins.    Miners then randomly generate literally thousands of millions of billions of hashes, ANY ONE OF WHICH COULD CRYPTOGRAPHICALLY SIGN THE NEXT BLOCK ON THE BLOCKCHAIN, and throw them away if the number of zeros in the beginning of the file does not make them a "winner".  The electricity wasted by this process is enormous and hidden from the public.  The stupid ecological crime called "mining" exists not to "secure the Ethereum /Bitcoin blockchain", but instead only to enrich miners in a get-rich-quick scheme.  This greed-based competition drives hash rates into unsustainable exponential levels that will eventually cause both Bitcoin and Ethereum to fail.  Bitcoin is already there; see:

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

The simplicity, trivial cost, and microscopic environmental footprint of Lisk forging will replace  the unsustainable growth and waste of Ethereum / Bitcoin mining in the future.  Lisk IS the future.


A technically and environmentally sustainable coin that is not going to self-destruct in the future like Bitcoin is now and Ethereum eventually and inevitably will.  A coin that will appreciate in value in the future because of its technical sustainability.  A coin whose primary core focus is only on sidechain / dapp development, instead of bolting these functions as an afterthought onto get-rich-quick schemes like "mining" and "gas" as Ethereum and Bitcoin do.

And 100,000+ understand JavaScript, the completely different programming language used by Lisk!

Not Lisk:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language)

Lisk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript