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11841  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: May 31, 2014, 07:49:22 PM
In regards to cloud-scale computing, they'll quickly be mining at a loss if enough everyday miners (ie those with a computer at home) mine at a loss since they probably won't worry as much about their relatively small electric bill vs active EC2, et alia costs. I probably mine at a loss now (given current exchange rates) but I don't mind the extra few dollars per month on my electricity bill with my otherwise underutilized processor and I would be more willing to risk just that given the potential end game than increasing my risk moreso by renting cloud computing.

This. Run the numbers, its pretty easy to see. Cloud mining is not competitive with small scale home mining. It only works when a coin is new and unknown and home miners are small in number. If a coin gets popular enough and is easy to mine, cloud mining is not remotely viable.

This shouldn't really be surprising because of you look around at what happens in IT, cloud is often replaced once a startup reaches the scale for it. There are a few exceptions that are probably strategic in some ways that are unclear to me (e.g. netflix).

The exception being the subset of cloud mining that runs on fraudulently-obtained resources (promotion abuse, stolen credit cards, etc.) but that is basically a botnet.

11842  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: May 31, 2014, 07:42:02 PM
Once someone has designed a chip it is extremely expensive to make any changes to the PoW function, but software solutions (CPU and/or GPU) can be tweaked a little at almost no cost.

Have the algorithm change pseudo-randomly, to another hash algorithm, depending on the time at which hash rate crosses a threshold.  If the space of hash algorithms is large enough, that pretty much destroys ASIC, because of the large amount of die space required to hold all the recombinant blocks, and the solution is fully decentralized.

Somewhat. There is an argument (undemonstrated AFAIK) that an ASIC for say X11 is still viable because the space of primitives used by the various hash functions is pretty small, allowing for a programmable ASIC. Something like what has been proposed for Etherium where the PoW has to run actual (otherwise useful) programs may be better, but this is all theory.
11843  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: May 30, 2014, 11:29:46 PM
What would that 1 line of code be?

I don't know what changes was specifically proposed for LTC but the point is more general. Once someone has designed a chip it is extremely expensive to make any changes to the PoW function, but software solutions (CPU and/or GPU) can be tweaked a little at almost no cost.

This isn't really decentralized, entirely. It is up to a developer to make the changes, but the community still has to adopt them.

And no it doesn't help any other altcoins. If they want an ASIC PoW they can just use SHA256 or Scrypt (SHA256 is probably better). There is no benefit to a new ASIC PoW.

11844  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: May 30, 2014, 11:24:06 PM
The POW can be altered invalidate ASICs with 1 line of code.

Fairly good point actually. Any coin can be not just ASIC-resistant but completely ASIC-proof if the developer and community want it to be, since they can just tweak things in some otherwise insignificant way once someone has put money into developing an ASIC, wiping out that investment.

11845  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [duck] duckNote [ANN]. CryptoNote based. on: May 30, 2014, 11:04:55 PM
Practically 6mil difficulty! We are going to beat BCN!

To make a fair comparison you have to scale by a factor of two since the block target is 4 minutes.
11846  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: May 30, 2014, 10:58:57 PM
CPU is an ASIC

A CPU is actually not an ASIC. It is general purpose, not application-specific.

The goal of ASIC-resistance is to require something closer to general purpose computing, not just a small subset of operations in a tight loop.

If you get close enough than you can't really create an ASIC that is more efficient than a CPU. Although you can trim out some functions of a CPU and optimize others, you are competing against the massive investment that goes into improving CPUs (which have higher volume than any ASIC, almost by definition) and you can't keep up.

11847  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO]MANDATORY UPGRADE!Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 30, 2014, 09:14:28 PM
i am not in the irc chat - is there something fundamentally broken or other fud? or is this just market madness?

There is FUD at the moment going on about Bytecoin, that CryptoNote based coins have a backdoor.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=512747.msg7018325#msg7018325

Personally I think this is a load of rubbish, many people here have read the entire codebase [1] of Monero (that is mostly the original CryptoNote implementation) and there seems to be no evidence of these special keys.

[1] I am sure I heard that some of the Monero developers have been over the code. I wouldn't mind this being confirmed again. Smiley

Seriously? Do not believe anything that comes from a troll box. And this one doesn't even come from the trollbox, it comes from someone claiming to have seen it in a troll box. What a joke.

11848  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 30, 2014, 09:34:17 AM
Yes - but remember: 1 address = 1 wallet. They'd have to manually balance funds between wallets for withdrawals etc. It could be done, but it would be massively inefficient and a PITA to code up. Payment IDs are the easiest / best way.

It is pretty common in bitcoin world to sweep payment wallets into master wallets (some in cold storage) anyway, so this is not necessarily a show stopper.

I'd like to see the payment IDs removed from the block chain eventually and replaced with something else. That could be a payment protocol (i.e. off blockchain) or some other approach. I don't know that address-per-customer or address-per-transaction is necessarily the way to go with MRO but it isn't on its face unworkable.

In any case it works for now. Once we have GUI wallets the UI issues should be reduced.
11849  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO]MANDATORY UPGRADE!Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 30, 2014, 07:47:17 AM
Did you know about the impending dump before our off exchange transaction? Wink

Smiley noted, but I feel I should respond. I have zero knowledge of what drives trading beyond my own activities and those have been very light since the OTC wrapped up. I think other than yours I've only done one other trade on this coin in the past week or so, possibly two.

I'm not involved with any of the web exchanges either, other than trading on them. My response about polo withdrawal issues was from my own experience.

Regarding the dump, I've always said that the coin value needs to find some equilibrium. That may be lower, even quite a bit lower. Right now the reality is this coin isn't useful for anything other than speculating on how it might be useful in the future. That doesn't necessarily anchor a lot of value.

11850  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO]MANDATORY UPGRADE!Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 30, 2014, 07:06:19 AM
it seems Poloniex withdrawal for MRO doesn't work. Status of my withdrawal now is ERROR.

Common problem. Open a ticket with them, they will cancel it you can try again. It may be due to the transaction being too big, in which case doing several smaller withdrawals will help.



11851  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Spin-offs: bootstrap an altcoin with a btc-blockchain-based initial distribution on: May 30, 2014, 03:26:02 AM
1.  Eliminating dust by rounding all address balances down to the nearest 1000 bits.  This cuts the size of Block0 for the spin-off in half (from ~80 Mbytes to ~40 Mbytes).

2.  Reducing the complexity of the claiming process by not supporting certain bitcoin UXTOs with complex / non-standard redeem scripts.  If only 99.5% of the bitcoins were claimable, as opposed to 100%, would this be considered legitimate (assuming the rules were known in advance)?  Claiming standard payToPubKeyHash outputs is very easy (which is the vast majority of the bitcoin money supply), but complexity builds if every possible output script must be supported.  

3.  What is your opinion on spin-offs launched with time-limited claim windows (assuming the window is sufficiently long)?  DeathAndTaxes made some good arguments in their favour. 

I acknowledge the practical value of all of these. They all have some redistributive effect, but the actual scheme has to live in the real world, with practical considerations. If the redistributive effects are small then the practical considerations really should dominate.

My reaction is strongest on the claim window because I think that is the most grossly redistributive (against people who do not choose to "wake up" and claim their coins within the time window).  As D&T said, with a greenfield design you can do whatever you want, but some of those things are redistributive, and some are not. This one is. Clearly that is the case when there are comments about wanting to eliminate a potential "overhang" of coins.

Again I'm not certain that the non-redistributive spin-off approach is necessarily the best, but one should recognize redistributive variations for what they are.





11852  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Spin-offs: bootstrap an altcoin with a btc-blockchain-based initial distribution on: May 29, 2014, 10:52:26 PM
don't forget that we have this uncertainty in Bitcoin in regards to Satoshi's BTC and other addresses that haven't been touched in years.  yet no one currently suggests we go cancel them out.  the uncertainty of these addresses doesn't seem to have affected the Bitcoin market.
Certainly people have proposed spin-offs that exclude Satoshi's coins, and/or all coins that haven't been moved recently. And alt-coin communities often point to Satoshi's holdings as showing that Bitcoin's distribution is poor. So people care. Whether it's affected the market is impossible to say; perhaps the current price would be double if those coins had been provably destroyed. In any case, destroying them within Bitcoin would be near-impossible politically, so it's kinda pointless to discuss it.

I like the idea of the time limit for claims, partly because it has the effect of excluding Satoshi's coins, and those of other inactive people, without having to impose an arbitrary historic cut-off date. If we excluded BTC untouched since 2012, for example, some people would lose out and there'd be nothing they could do about it. Where-as if we require claims to be made before 2016, then Satoshi himself can make his claim if he should awaken from his slumber. It's probably better for the new coin if its users are at least a little bit active.

This greatly calls into question the economic premise of this idea, which is that the bitcoin distribution is the most efficient. If that isn't true, then all bets are off. Sure you can use various different rules for what is included or isn't included but that goes right back to 100s (or more) of different alts, each with people rigging the rules to whatever their advantage (generally short term advantage) happens to be.
11853  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 29, 2014, 10:48:36 PM
Hi again,

does someone tried this "merged mining" of BCN, MRO and QCN with this Fantomcoin (FCN) ?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598823.0

Thx, BitWalker



Good question.

as far as i know their miners were always really slower than monero miners so there was no point in mining it if you cant mine monero with the same hash you would without mining FCN. And i think the implementation cannot be supported by pools...

Is the problem that FCN cant keep up with updates to the code base of its merge mined coins? It seems to work for Namecoin though..?

It works for namecoin because the pace of development is much, much slower, and there is also more money involved, even though namecoin is only worth maybe 1% of bitcoin.  1% of a bitcoin block is still significant. FCN is not worth the trouble at this point.

11854  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 29, 2014, 09:50:43 PM
I looked at mining algorithm and I see that pow is calculated over WHOLE block (sha3). Not block header like in bitcoin, but whole block with transactions. Is that true or am I mistaken?

If that's true this means that ignoring transactions gives a small speed boost in mining. That's not very good for the future...

I skimmed the code, and you may be right.

src/cryptonote_core/miner.cpp:

...
      b.nonce = nonce;
      crypto::hash h;
      get_block_longhash(b, h, height);

      if(check_hash(h, local_diff))
      {
        //we lucky!
...


Could a developer comment on that? Will larger blocks hash slower? If so, what incentives do miners have to include more than the coinbase transaction in their blocks (transaction fees seem negligible at the moment imo)?

The slow hash is not computed on the entire block, directly. There is an intermediate fast hash, just as with other coins. But just as with other coins it is indeed the case that larger blocks are slower. After all you still have to validate the transactions and compute the block hash. That's why there need to be some transaction fees to get miners to include transactions into a block, otherwise they won't. There can also bit a bit of social pressure to do the right thing. For example, with bitcoin there is no real incentive to include the fee-free high-priority transactions, but most of the big pools do it anyway. With this coin there is not currently a transaction priority mechanism so fee-free transactions are not workable, even if they are workable for bitcoin (which is questionable longer term).

EDIT: BTW transaction fees were raised in the last update and may be raised again. They need to be economically significant.
11855  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 29, 2014, 09:46:25 PM
Will Monero ever reach 0.008? Seems like a constant downfall every day I check poloniex.

Speculation thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622708.0
11856  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 29, 2014, 09:45:11 PM
Quote
If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner.
Mining dynamics tend in the opposite direction (because efficiency wins out, and larger operations are more efficient).

Efficiency is a tricky beast though. Someone who already owns a computer for another purpose, doesn't even bother tracking the electricity use for mining because it is too small to matter (or in some cases actually free), and doesn't need any cooling system (not even free flow) because he is operating on a small scale, has a zero cost structure. No professional miner can compete with that on efficiency.



Sure. We're effectively arguing the same logic though, from different angles. I'm saying the gpu mining community is comprised of a lot of small scale operations, whereas MRO's current mining distribution would (I expect) be dominated by a few large cloud mining ops. Far, FAR easier & cheaper to scale up cloud mining infrastructure than scaling up GPU mining. So introducing a gpu miner would be moving in the right direction in that respect (not to mention the benefit to adoption, attention, etc).

Show term yes, but long term no. The GPU mining community is orders of magnitudes smaller than the wider community of people with a computer.

Anyway, a GPU miner will happen if it is feasible, which is debatable. You are more than welcome to start a bounty for it, collect donations, etc. as some of us have done for other things we thought were important (GUI, etc.). I happen not to think that GPU mining is that important so I won't participate at this time. If at some point it looks like there are secret GPU miners, then yes I would participate in a bounty to open source them or develop and open source alternative.


11857  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [BCN] Bytecoin (CPU-mining, true anonymity) on: May 29, 2014, 09:41:49 PM
It's an attempt to pump, and is false, as anyone who understands the technology knows.


11858  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 29, 2014, 09:33:04 PM
Quote
If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner.
Mining dynamics tend in the opposite direction (because efficiency wins out, and larger operations are more efficient).

Efficiency is a tricky beast though. Someone who already owns a computer for another purpose, doesn't even bother tracking the electricity use for mining because it is too small to matter (or in some cases actually free), and doesn't need any cooling system (not even free flow) because he is operating on a small scale, has a zero cost structure. No professional miner can compete with that on efficiency.

11859  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 29, 2014, 09:18:54 PM
All professional miners dump. It doesn't matter if they are GPU farmers, botnets, cloud miners or something else. They're in business to mine and then get their cash out to recycle it into something else.

Speculators can drive prices up but they can also drive them down, when they jump off to the new hot coin. They bring volatility, not sustained increases.

If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner. The missing pieces are: 1) a more user-friendly wallet, and 2) something to actually do with the damn thing. A GPU miner would actually be somewhat counterproductive, because they tend to be harder to set up for small scale non-professionals, and favor those with the most optimized GPU models and configurations.

If it is is just large scale miners and speculators, you will see a lot of volatility but no major sustained price increase.
11860  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [BCN] Bytecoin (CPU-mining, true anonymity) on: May 29, 2014, 12:42:10 PM
Anyone want to take pity on a linux noob. I am trying to graduate to linux and wanted to see if I could get a machine up and mining Bytecoin.

My Setup:
Operating System PIMP 64 bit (copied to a 250gb HD with resized partitions to allow enough space for the Bytecoin blockchain)

Problem:
When I decompress the bytecoin-linux.tar.gz file I get a segmentation error.
...
In Linux the corresponding command is the "ls" (list) command, so type:
ls -l

For help on this command type:
man ls

Thanks, I think the problem was with the PIMP OS which was designed to run off a USB stick, I installed Zorin instead and everything worked smoothly.
 
Can anyone tell me where ByteCoin stores the blockchain in a linux system once it's downloaded and synchronized. I have fully synchronized the blockchain and want to copy it over to my other computer so I don't have to do it again but I can not find it.



It's in .bytecoin/ in your home directory
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