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11961  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 08:22:15 AM
I like the attention, it's best that they come here so that we can hash out our misunderstandings. Regardless of opinions, both groups favor anonymity and privacy ... best to get our stories straight now rather than when the world comes to our front door.

Its reasonable to bring up DRK topics here to a point, when it involves similarities and differences compared with MRO.

But the last few posts (pages?) have just been about DRK pro-and-con, where the masternodes are physically located, whether masternodes are a rip off, and other stuff that is really not related to MRO at all. So it is probably best to move on with that conversation somewhere else.
11962  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Marketplace (Altcoins) / Re: [QCN] OTC exchange and trading thread for QuazarCoin on: May 22, 2014, 08:17:47 AM
Selling 1000 for 0.2 btc, min 500

Sold yesterday
11963  Economy / Securities / Re: [NastyFans.org] NASTY MINING | POOL | COINS on: May 22, 2014, 07:00:50 AM
Quote from: Alpha Technology
Greetings Miners!

We're happy to inform you that development is finalizing and we are on track for shipment in July. We will soon receive our chips at which time we will have finished up on development and can begin assembling the devices.

Therefore, it is now time to collect the remainder of the funds for your order(s).

The invoice for your order(s) have been sent via email to your registered email address. You will be able to pay the invoice by logging in to "My Account" on our website where you will find a "pending" order for the amount due.  A new order number has been created for the final payment. However, this number does not relate to your place in the queue; shipping is still based on your earliest order number.

This is great news and concerning news at the same time.  At the current exchange rate, we owe 13.17 BTC for the remainder of our order.  This is concerning because we currently only have ~9 BTC in holdings.  If anyone is able to lend the 4 BTC needed to pay for this, please let me know.

Maybe but what are the terms of the loan. I don't want to do it if I'd be waiting behind 200 BTC of earlier loans.
11964  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 06:03:27 AM
RC3 Progress Report

I've had some substantial progress on DarkSend and have figured out how to make our existing system as secure as ring signatures. Vastly improved security, no bloat (from the ring signatures) and without actually having to trust new cryptography (it hasn't been extensively tested like what DarkSend uses) . So I think it'll give us a HUGE advantage in the coming months. More to come soon, I'm going to start implementing this tomorrow.  Grin

Looks like Darkcoin won't be implementing ring signatures, awesome!  Monero will remain a unique competitor.

My bet is that the devs looked at it, realized they were in way too deep, and then put out some PR bullshit.

Too obvious.

By the way, as pointed out by gmaxwell, CoinJoin is already available in Bitcoin. The only difference is that this CoinJoin is run by Amazon instead of blockchain.info. Wink

I doubt he's just making this up.


No but at the same time he appears somewhat jaundiced with anything not Bitcoin. Apparently he had not heard of Monero which is very strange and then goes on to call QCN as a fairer fork. Come on, we all saw and know that is a big bag of BS

Bytecoin was forked into a coin that the community could participate in from day one.
Alas, none of the bugs or short comings were fixed in doing that— and it doesn't appear that any of the people involved in it have the background for the low level work. So you might have just written out the only active developers of the software, may not bode well for continued development.

The fork also can't claim to be roses and sunshine wrt fairness: As someone very interested in privacy technology and as someone who is usually near the hub of technical discussion in the Bitcoin system, I'd never heard of that fork until just recently— nearly a month after it's start.  And… has a very fast coin distribution, and was started with a difficulty much lower than the network could support. A lot could have been done to improve fairness (e.g. fixing the subsidy to a low level at least until the difficulty crossed the level where the prior system was, or setting the minimum difficulty to a good fraction of the achieved rate), promoting it outside of pools of altcoin speculators (e.g. why do I hear about zerocash 100,000 times for every time I hear about this stuff?), etc.   Not that I think that any of the altcoin stuff is advisable, but if you're going to make a fork on the virtue of fairness wouldn't it behoove you to actually be fair? Smiley

And, of course, the fork has now also been forked. That one at least tames the insanely fast distribution somewhat... but it too doesn't fix any of the worse parts... I can only imagine that we're going to continue to see once a month forks of that stuff— suits me fine, while the technology is interesting and useful, the speculative churn is not.



He someone manages to criticize the MRO distribution curve as "insanely fast" but ignores that BCN, which he is running around praising, is twice as fast as MRO (in addition to the two year premine head start). Honestly I don't think he's paying that much attention to the details, just sees some good ideas. The general view of anything not-bitcoin among the most of the bitcoin crowd is that they are all shitcoins. Most of the time they are right, so you can't entirely blame them.

11965  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 02:32:40 AM
Well if not Botnets then who is making money mining?  I have had 4 computers mining 24/7 for several days for a grand total of 0.16  MRO.  So clearly this isn't profitable for anyone who isn't running a massive botnet.

Those were either very low end computers or you got screwed by polls not working very well (I tried to warn everyone), using an unoptimized miner, or just getting unlucky. A single 4770 class machine (very roughly 100 h/s IIRC) should make about a coin and a half per day at 100M difficulty (and it wasn't that high until the past few days). That's roughly 100 times what you got. Not right.


if I solo mine by typing "start_mining 8" from my wallet I get about 63 H/s. I'm using win7 on an i7 930 CPU.

Not bad. You will get about 2/3 of what I said on average, although luck will play a large role. You may have to wait a week or more to get single block on four computers. Then again you might get two in one day. Patience will pay off here much better than 0.01 MRO per machine per day.

11966  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 02:00:38 AM
If you want to get rid of Botnets, you need ASICs - if thats better in the End is very questionable.

We don't want to get rid of botnets. We love botnets.

Thank you. I may put that on my sig. Let me try it out for fun:

---
Monero <3 botnets.

11967  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 02:00:08 AM
Well if not Botnets then who is making money mining?  I have had 4 computers mining 24/7 for several days for a grand total of 0.16  MRO.  So clearly this isn't profitable for anyone who isn't running a massive botnet.

Those were either very low end computers or you got screwed by polls not working very well (I tried to warn everyone), using an unoptimized miner, or just getting unlucky. A single 4770 class machine (very roughly 100 h/s IIRC) should make about a coin and a half per day at 100M difficulty (and it wasn't that high until the past few days). That's roughly 100 times what you got. Not right.
11968  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 01:22:32 AM
You're wrong about this. I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone who paid a lot of money for a lot of servers to mine this coin. He won't be outed by me ever but he does in fact exist. Truth.

There is little to no evidence of any massive botnet involvement with this coin. If and when it does happen, you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners, because the miners get incorporated into malware. If you knew as much as you claim to know about botnet mining, you would know this.

FUD bombing or trolling, which is it?
Hah... sounds more like FUD to me then anything else posted here.  "I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone".... WHOA NELLY! STOP THE PRESSES!

You don't have to believe it if you don't want. Perhaps the sender will come forward, or send the same screen shot to others who can confirm. Or perhaps he doesn't care enough to do that. I have no idea, and I respect his privacy.

11969  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 01:20:48 AM
you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners

This happened to me today, for the first time.


Okay, well that being the case there probably is malware mining the coin, but if you know where to look you can still tell its not happening on a large scale. At least not yet.

What miner got flagged? If it was cpuminer, that could be a flag left over from the old (pre-CryptoNight) cpuminer. If simpleminer got flagged, that's pretty likely a real hit.



11970  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 01:04:37 AM
Last I checked, discrete GPUs are an expensive technology largely confined to rich white Western males. Let's not pretend it's 'fair'. Just like everyone else, they're an interest group trying to serve themselves. It's actually a rather tiny community in the grand scheme (the world is pretty big), but they have a disproportionate presence on this forum.
Still, everyone can go buy a GPU - level playing field.  Not everyone can (and definitely should not) go create a large botnet and abuse their CPUs...

Quote
It's sure as hell more fair than hackers having 100, 200, 300 computer botnet farms mining CPU only coins.
Far more likely that the majority of the hashrate comes from people around the world renting VM instances mining MRO and paying for it.  
Lol.. no, it really isn't more likely.  Botnet is WAY more likely based on the history of CPU coins.

You're wrong about this. I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone who paid a lot of money for a lot of servers to mine this coin. He won't be outed by me ever but he does in fact exist. Truth.

There is little to no evidence of any massive botnet involvement with this coin. If and when it does happen, you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners, because the miners get incorporated into malware. If you knew as much as you claim to know about botnet mining, you would know this.

FUD bombing or trolling, which is it?

11971  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 22, 2014, 01:01:36 AM
Nobody uses botnets to mine coins, a constantly pegged CPU is very noticeable to just about anyone with a pulse.
For your education: DKOM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_kernel_object_manipulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unlinking_EPROCESS.png

It's fairly trivial for a rootkit to entirely hide a process.  You can quite literally run a CPU miner and the processor usage sits under idle in all task managers.

You can't hide the temperature (especially on a laptop, meaning a huge share of computers now) and fans going.

You can mine only at a low level of usage without being noticed, but then you greatly reduce your output. And even then, it won't matter once the coin is widely adopted, because legitimate users will far outnumber botnets, and will drive the difficulty up to where professional miners (including botnet operators) won't be interested.

This conversation is fairly pointless though. This is a designed (legitimately, unlike most of the others) as a CPU coin and its going to remain a CPU coin for the immediate future, until perhaps a design flaw or other technological obstacle gets in the way.

If you don't like CPU coins, you should just move on to one of the hundreds of GPU and/or ASIC coins. If you stay here and post negatively about it, you are clearly being a troll or FUD bombing. Its all quite transparent.

11972  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 11:21:18 PM
Yea, and guess what happens when you get free coins in your wallet just by devoting some of your CPU power to help secure the network?? Drastically lower prices of the coin, as everyone and their grandma would have piles of Monero...which is extremely unfair......

You realize the number of coins is constant? It doesn't increase the supply by having more people mine, it just spreads it out, which is exactly what you want. If the coins go into grandmas wallet, she probably keeps them until she wants to spend them on something (or maybe just keeps them). If they go to some professional or industrial miner they rapidly get sold off to pay for equipment, electricity, etc. The former is much better for the coin value, although that's not really the motivation for it.

Quote
Darkcoin

Oh, ok. Now I understand why you are here.
11973  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 11:11:24 PM
CPU only is fine, Darkcoin was supposed to be cpu only...but that didnt last long.

Most of the previous "CPU only" coins are really scams and the developers already have GPU miner or know how to write one. There are a very few exceptions, almost certainly including this one.

I don't expect a really dominant GPU miner any time soon, maybe ever. GPUs are just computers though, so it is certainly possible to mine this on a GPU, and there probably will be a some GPU miner, but won't be so much faster as to put small scale CPU miners out of business (probably -- absent some unknown algorithmic flaw).

EVeryone focuses on botnets because it has been so long since regular users were able to effectively mine a coin (due to every coin rapidly going high end GPU and ASIC) that the idea that "users" could vastly outnumber "miners" (botnet or otherwise) isn't even on the radar.  

The vision here is a wallet that asks you when you want to install: "Do you want to devote some of you CPU power to help secure the network. You will be eligible to receive free coins as a reward (recommended)   [check box]." Get millions of users doing that and it will drive down the value of mining to where neither botnets nor professional/industrial miners will bother, and Satoshi's original vision of a true p2p currency will be realized.

That's what cryptonote wants to accomplish with this whole "egalitarian mining" concept. Whether it succeeds I don't know but we should give it a chance. Those cryptonote guys seem pretty smart. They've probably thought this through better than any of us have.


11974  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 10:59:41 PM
The biggest thing Monero would benefit from right now, is a GPU miner.  CPU-only is a guaranteed way to put the majority of the coins in the hands of criminals/botnet owners.

Probably not, first of all they'll just sell the coins, at least until this coin is already very successful. Second of all, if the coin gets wide adoption then ordinary users can far outnumber botnets via a click-and-go wallet miner.

11975  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 10:56:52 PM
Scalable I guess not in an abstract sense, I would have to agree. I was only really disagreeing that it is an urgent problem. At anything close to 8x the transaction size of BTC, I don't see a crisis.

You should. Every weakness of MRO could be improved by BCN devs in a second iteration and say "hey, you know what? BCN was the original but had problems... In terms of scalability it was DOA (dead on arrival). Now we fixed those problems and we launch BCN 2.0 (another coin), with new blockchain tech etc etc, that can scale". RIP BCN1 + clones + our money.

I suggest you sell now. I mean it.
11976  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 10:56:08 PM
Darkcoin will have the largest market share (measured by market cap excluding any premined or instamined coins) among all the cryptocurrencies focused on anonymity (including Monero, Bytecoin, and Anoncoin) in 12 months time. Let me know when it's setup and I'll throw my 5 BTC down.

I would take that bet as well, but not on bitbet.  Via escrow.  5 BTC.  Let me know.

BitBet.us opens it up, though, to larger bets in the pool instead of it being a person-to-person deal...let's see what our dear friend "darkota" says and we can figure out if this is going to play out or go nowhere:)

Of course he won't take the bet because he's a troll. If he really thought DRK was better he wouldn't be wasting his time on this thread, for the same reason we don't all hang out on coinye's thread. We need to stop engaging these people.

Exactly. +1e100
11977  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 09:37:04 PM
- is MRO scalable? No. Ring signatures add enormous bloat to the block chain that will become a big problem very soon.

I'm not sure about this one. It has been five years since bitcoin launched. That's roughly 3 doubles in Moore's law terms. I don't think typical MRO transactions are a lot more than 8 times larger than typical BTC transactions. Pruning will eventually become an issue, but again looking to the BTC example, in five years exactly zero has been done about pruning in BTC (though SPV clients have become common). Something will need done, but it is not urgent. I don't hold up BTC as a role model in terms of development, but it does show that these sorts of problems can exist and not cause crippling failure for several years.

There is certainly a cost to the way the anonymity features, but it isn't as if the cost doesn't come with an huge offsetting value proposition. It does.

In any case I definitely agree with your other points, about user-friendliness and "getting it out there." There is much work to do.



My question is the same, but with a different answer. Is MRO scalable? Maybe not - each transaction that is broadcast on the network has a small computational cost for EVERYONE with a node, IIRC. You have to check to see if it's for you.

Scalable I guess not in an abstract sense, I would have to agree. I was only really disagreeing that it is an urgent problem. At anything close to 8x the transaction size of BTC, I don't see a crisis.
11978  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 09:25:43 PM
Block time should be increased but block reward also need to be increased proportionally to keep the amount of to-be-mined coins unchanged. We need to stick with original emission graph, otherwise many late miners and fudsters would come up and scream "instamine" all over the board.

I agree 100%. This is also important for preventing tx fee escalation and keeping coins spendable.

In the current design there is no obvious relationship between block time and transaction fees, because there is no fixed maximum block size, so no scarcity of block space ever. Even relay time doesn't necessarily matter, because there are (complex, but tractable) technical solutions like starting to relay a block while you are still receiving it, or relaying blocks incrementally (bittorrent style), etc.

There are secondary effects, such as limiting orphans that do matter, which is why 1 minute is patently absurd, and even Satoshi's 10 minutes might well be right.

It is also possible the current dynamic block size design might not work, but I think we need to see it start to fail (or at least compelling simulations) before reaching that conclusion. It seems pretty well designed.

Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't suggesting block time has any effect on transaction fees. I was saying block reward affects the fees. It's important that block reward eventually be a fixed percentage of existing coins, otherwise tx fees will become infinitely more expensive as tx volume increases and reward approaches zero. Explained here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=597878.msg6701490#msg6701490

Oh okay, I misunderstood the connection you were making. I agree that not having a meaningful reward is probably a fail. I'm not persuaded by any of the arguments I've ever seen about what is the "right" reward structure (not limiting this by any means to your arguments), though that isn't a reason to do nothing either. On the somewhat positive side, BCN, if it survives (though its looking questionable at the moment) will get there much, much faster than we will, so we can see how they handle it. Perfect testnet.


11979  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 09:07:01 PM
Block time should be increased but block reward also need to be increased proportionally to keep the amount of to-be-mined coins unchanged. We need to stick with original emission graph, otherwise many late miners and fudsters would come up and scream "instamine" all over the board.

I agree 100%. This is also important for preventing tx fee escalation and keeping coins spendable.

In the current design there is no obvious relationship between block time and transaction fees, because there is no fixed maximum block size, so no scarcity of block space ever. Even relay time doesn't necessarily matter, because there are (complex, but tractable) technical solutions like starting to relay a block while you are still receiving it, or relaying blocks incrementally (bittorrent style), etc.

There are secondary effects, such as limiting orphans that do matter, which is why 1 minute is patently absurd, and even Satoshi's 10 minutes might well be right.

It is also possible the current dynamic block size design might not work, but I think we need to see it start to fail (or at least compelling simulations) before reaching that conclusion. It seems pretty well designed.
11980  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - Anonymous Currency Based on Ring Signatures on: May 21, 2014, 08:53:33 PM
- is MRO scalable? No. Ring signatures add enormous bloat to the block chain that will become a big problem very soon.

I'm not sure about this one. It has been five years since bitcoin launched. That's roughly 3 doubles in Moore's law terms. I don't think typical MRO transactions are a lot more than 8 times larger than typical BTC transactions. Pruning will eventually become an issue, but again looking to the BTC example, in five years exactly zero has been done about pruning in BTC (though SPV clients have become common). Something will need done, but it is not urgent. I don't hold up BTC as a role model in terms of development, but it does show that these sorts of problems can exist and not cause crippling failure for several years.

There is certainly a cost to the way the anonymity features, but it isn't as if the cost doesn't come with an huge offsetting value proposition. It does.

In any case I definitely agree with your other points, about user-friendliness and "getting it out there." There is much work to do.

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