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121  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Stealth address with SX (anonymous payments) on: January 18, 2014, 03:09:09 AM
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.

No, everyone cares about privacy, at least to a certain degree. Or maybe you could find me someone who would love to show me his bank transaction history.

If this were the case, Edward Snowden wouldn't be hiding in Russia, no one would be using Facebook, and Tor would be standard.  For the vast majority, privacy is simply not valued by most people when it comes down to actually put in any effort.  The Bitcoin community in general is going to have a selection bias towards those who care more than the average person.

Privacy is valued, when people appear to not care about it the threat is usually not tangible, as in your Snowden, FB and Tor case. When your bank/credit card history is out, or you are caught masturbating you will immediately feel how important it really is. Same happens when your friend/wife just saw your bitcoin transaction to a stripper on blockchain.info.

Also the incognito mode seems so important that every browser maker feels the need to put it in.

How often is incognito mode used?  I would say 95% of users never touch it.  How many people stop using credit cards after the account details are hacked?

Do you really think people view being able to see chained transactions as a tangible threat?  Most people won't.  As Bitcoin becomes more mainstream, fewer percentages of people will care as well, EVEN IF bad things happen, which constantly happens.

I'm not denying that it is important, but most people will not take the steps to protect it, and even actively take steps to give it up if it gives them a small benefit.  AT&T is offering high speed internet if they can spy on your data, how many people do you think will do anything extra to hide their privacy?  It sounds like this is intended to be a mainstream and behind-the-scenes implementation, in which case, it simply becomes your address.
122  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Stealth address with SX (anonymous payments) on: January 18, 2014, 02:35:49 AM
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.

No, everyone cares about privacy, at least to a certain degree. Or maybe you could find me someone who would love to show me his bank transaction history.

If this were the case, Edward Snowden wouldn't be hiding in Russia, no one would be using Facebook, and Tor would be standard.  For the vast majority, privacy is simply not valued by most people when it comes down to actually put in any effort.  The Bitcoin community in general is going to have a selection bias towards those who care more than the average person.
123  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Stealth address with SX (anonymous payments) on: January 18, 2014, 01:22:17 AM
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.

The way things are going with twister integration, it won't even matter whether we call them "stealth" addresses at all, because the average user won't even know they exist! When they make a payment it'll be to an identity - a person - not to some incomprehensible string of numbers. From that perspective, call them whatever you want.

Exactly. Addresses in general are going to be replaced by various payment protocols and identification systems. I think a good analogy is DNS: the vast majority of the time you type a DNS name into your URL bar in your browser. Behind the scenes that gets resolved to an IP address, and the fact that you can type an IP address instead of a DNS name is only possible because sometimes advanced users and developers need to debug things at a lower-level than you normally would use. Just like 95% of users have probably never heard the term "IPv4 address" in the future 95% of users will have never heard the term "stealth address"

As for now, we've got a lot of great press using the term, and changing the name now for vague reasons of "acceptability" will just confuse people when we start rolling out stealth address support in wallets for the early adopters to use.

Anyway, enough with this silly bike-shedding; lets get some work done.

I'm not pleased with any of the alternative names either, and as long as it is transparent to the user, all is well with me!

There still needs to be a name, though, even if it is the default.  Users do know of "web address" to visit their webpage even if they don't know the magic of how it works underneath.  Even something as bland as Payment Identifier could work for this purpose.  Stealth address would be one specific type of such an identifier that could be used for more technical people who want to understand the guts.

Look at how much damage has to be undone because of a poorly named "Bitcoin Address".  Names are far more than bikeshedding and can lead people to make very incorrect assumptions and lead people astray.  My concern is mostly about mainstreaming the Stealth Address feature while not putting it in some pigeonhole of "oooh scary advanced secret stuff only bad people use".  People that care about privacy are not going to be the target here.  It's the people who say "so what" to the privacy claim.  Stealth buys them nothing.  But make it work without them knowing and you could call it ice cream dump truck and it's just as good.
124  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Stealth address with SX (anonymous payments) on: January 17, 2014, 10:21:01 PM
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.
125  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Question about a collision statement on bitcoin wiki on: December 09, 2013, 09:21:48 PM
If two people have the same key, that's not really a collision in this sense.

It wouldn't have access to the "entire wallet", only that specific address.

Since it is only talking about collisions of different keys, I have no idea why you claim this is only marketing.  This is an important distinction for addresses, since it is "compressed" forms of large keys.  Ensuring you generate keys using good sources of entropy is an entirely different security concern, as is someone accessing your private key and using that.
126  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to structure mutually conditional transactions? on: December 08, 2013, 06:41:12 PM
Is it possible using pay-to-script-hash, to come up with an appropriate script for mutually conditional transactions?

What I mean is, you have the following scenario: 

Alice and Bob want to make transaction A, but if and only if Carol and Dave make transaction B.
Carol and Dave want to make transaction B, but if and only if Alice and Bob make transaction A.

All four parties want both transactions to go through, or neither.  But none of them wants to structure it as a single four-way transaction, because Alice and Bob are not allowed to know before both tx are broadcast which txouts Carol and Dave are about to use, and vice versa. 

Nobody cares, though, if the other pair do instead a similar transaction (same amount transferred) involving *different* txouts. As long as it isn't exactly transaction A or transaction B, they don't want their own transaction to go through.

They can cooperate to the extent of giving each other identifying information for their transactions; they can give each other partial hashes of their tx (ie, their hash matches their tx if you zero the part of their script that contains your hash) before broadcasting the tx.



A & B send to a 4-signature address and get a refund transaction from C&D that is timelocked in the future.
C & D send to a 4-signature address and get a refund transaction from A&B that is timelocked in the future.

Once all funds arrive, make a transaction that spends both going into 4-sig, invalidating the refunds.

If time expires, each pair can decide to execute a refund.
127  Other / Meta / Re: Can MasterCoin threads please be moved to the alt coins section? on: December 01, 2013, 12:13:03 AM
We really want our own subforum, although it need not be mastercoin-specific - just an area for projects using the bitcoin block-chain for interesting stuff.

Interesting that you didn't use this approach for creating your own blockchain.
128  Other / Meta / Re: Can MasterCoin threads please be moved to the alt coins section? on: December 01, 2013, 12:11:54 AM
Mastercoin threads should, in the spirit of Mastercoin, be parasitic in its nature and just bloat the threads here.
129  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Bitcoin Firesafe on: November 29, 2013, 02:56:22 PM
What is the point of a QR code rather than an encrypted private key?  Less likely for someone to memorize a QR code than a long private key?
The QR code IS the private key, just encoded in a visual format easy to parse by machines.
It's also an option to put the 64 hex digits into a slab of metal, but to use it you'd have to type them or use (less reliable) OCR.

I figured it was the key or an encrypted version of the key, but it seemed like typing them in would be less error prone than a camera trying to read the dots on steel.  Maybe I'm wrong that it's entirely readable with a camera now.
130  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Bitcoin Firesafe on: November 28, 2013, 11:05:10 PM
Been working on an idea for a little while, and I just published it... http://bitcoinfiresafe.com/

Basically, the idea is to make something much more secure against environmental damage than a paper wallet.  I built some custom code and have made some prototypes, and at this point, I'm ready to offer some to the public.  Given that Bitcoin Black Friday is kicking off, and we're launching at the same time, I'm offering it for a deep discount of 40% off the normal $50USD price.

If anyone has some suggestions or questions, please let me know!

What is the point of a QR code rather than an encrypted private key?  Less likely for someone to memorize a QR code than a long private key?
131  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Pirate v2.0: Unravelling the Bitshares Ponzi on: November 27, 2013, 08:43:20 PM
This is one of those things that will work really well until it doesn't (sort of like the subprime mortgage market).

As long as housing (Bitshares) go up in value, all is well and the underlying asset can be backed up.  But once it falls, it will ripple through the market, causing even more instability, crashing the whole house of cards to nothing.

Definitely not a Ponzi, just another bad idea that is just good enough to get attention and work for a period of time until it doesn't.
132  Other / Off-topic / The Internet isn't worth it for Consumers. And that will stop adoption. on: November 24, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
- You have to buy some expensive piece of hardware called a modem even if you already have a computer
- You tie up your entire phone line or have to buy an additional phone line just to use it
- Barely anyone has an email address, so who are you going to send email to?
- Hardly any companies have ways to buy things, plus it's not secure enough to send your credit card
- You have to be an expert to install software to connect to the internet
- Criminals and terrorists might use it.
133  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fire Bitcoin Foundation - Murck on: November 18, 2013, 10:29:09 PM
"I agree with ernie, an open dialogue is good, so we can solve problems as we move forward." 
come on man, didnt you read orwell, stay away from the platitudes.  you're putting us to sleep with meaningless statements
You guys are idiots.  Thank god we have a clear thinking guy like Murck rather than boneheads who merely stand up to say 'fuck the government'.  

so the two options are

1)insult the govt
2)say something meaningless

cool, thanks for clearing it up

Maybe you could use this as a platform to launch your career as a replacement for him as Counsel.  For your first task, I'd like a 3 page essay on what you would present to Congress.
134  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: "John Dillon" We can leak things too you trolling piece of shit on: November 17, 2013, 05:51:29 PM
When btcd presented, it sounded like they aren't quite complete yet.  Maybe they have finished it in the last month.  It sounds promising, I liked their architecture quite a bit.  I'm not as familiar with Go, so I didn't dig into the source, but the Conformal guys definitely get it and I wish their project could get more traction.
They don't have a wallet or GUI code finished yet, but what they do have will download the blockchain and relay transactions and blocks, which as far as I'm concerned is all that a full node should do anyway.

I'm running an instance of btcd right now and it's doing a fine job of achieving consensus with the rest of the network.


I remember they had severe performance problems early, maybe they have been fixed.  If they have a way to query about the block chain, relay and hold the blockchain, that's good enough for a full node IMO.  Glad to see it's working.  I liked their talk.
135  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Does the general public know they can buy fractions of Bitcoin? on: November 17, 2013, 05:50:17 PM
First of all, this is NOT a discussion about the unit in which Bitcoin should now be denominated in. That's been discussed to death.

What I'd like to know is if people are thinking "that's too expensive - I can't afford to buy in".

Traditionally, stocks can only be purchased in whole units.

Although Bitcoin isn't a stock, the perception is that it can only be bought in whole units.

Agree/Disagree?

I had a friend who bought whole units, didn't know you could buy fractions.  It's not common sense by far.  I remember people talking about Silk Road too thinking they had to buy in increments of 1 BTC.
136  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: "John Dillon" We can leak things too you trolling piece of shit on: November 17, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
Yes, keeping a close eye on that. You mentioned Bits of Proof earlier, I support that effort as well. Seems to have a strong(er) code base, although don't take my word for it. Modular nodes ftw.
Bits of Proof was first, I think, but I'm not as familiar with it.

Also the Conformal guys live in the same city as I and show up at the local Bitcoin Meetups sometimes, so that's probably biasing me in their favour since I never met Grau in person.

One thing that I think would be extremely useful is if one of the teams that has done a reimplementation would start pushing code upstream to the Satoshi client, adding unit tests and documenting all the quirks they had to replicate to reduce the possible scope of an undocumented incompatibility that could cause a fork.

Maybe we could even pay for their time via a crowdfunding campaign.

When btcd presented, it sounded like they aren't quite complete yet.  Maybe they have finished it in the last month.  It sounds promising, I liked their architecture quite a bit.  I'm not as familiar with Go, so I didn't dig into the source, but the Conformal guys definitely get it and I wish their project could get more traction.

I've also looked into Bits Of Proof, not super close, but close enough, and like that a lot too.  I need to get more up to speed on JMS to really play with it more, but it has promise.  That's the stack I am planning on looking at most closely going forward.
137  Economy / Marketplace / bitlaughs.com - Comedians selling comedy for Bitcoin - Special $.10 Download! on: November 17, 2013, 01:59:58 AM
Right now there are two comedians on board, but I'm planning to expand shortly.  Right now, there is a special download for $.10 of Tom Simmons's End the Fed joke.  If you like it, please buy his full performance for only $4 in Bitcoin.

100% of proceeds are going to the comedians!  Tom's also a big believer in Bitcoin, so he's going to accumulate rather than cash in.
138  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining Bitcoins should be renamed to burying. on: November 02, 2013, 07:11:30 PM
Mining Gold should be renamed "Generating Gold", obviously.

Into alchemy?

No, just smoking some of the same stuff you clearly are.
139  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining Bitcoins should be renamed to burying. on: November 01, 2013, 07:53:39 PM
Is this some sort of inquisition?
I made a habit of pointing out ridiculous things about Bitcoin long before ripple came along.   If you don't like how I post there is a bright yellow button at the left that spares you my insights. But then please don't post in my threads.

This thread is not about that though.
It is about how dumb the term "mining" is.  It was called generating Bitcoins at the start, which is a way better term. The introduction post was just my way of pointing that out.

"Mining" makes more sense to the layman because it invokes the idea of "hard work done" to gain a certain limited resource.

"Generating" does not invoke the same image to most people.

Also many things mined in the real world do not allow for electrical generation by burning or changing. The most obvious analogy being Gold.

We mine Gold for which most is used for jewelry or a store or wealth (use in electrical components is a very small amount of worldwide usage.)

Mining Bitcoins is quite similar to mining Gold with respect to work done to gain a shiny material as a store of wealth.

Mining Gold should be renamed "Generating Gold", obviously.
140  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining Bitcoins should be renamed to burying. on: October 31, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
Basically it goes like this: Mining coal gets something out of the ground that can be turned into electricity.

Generating Bitcoins wastes electricity consuming coal. That coal is then buried inside the blockchain (It's not but the carbon dioxide which was released in the process is there.)
Buring is the opposite of digging, or if you will you have to dig something out first (earth or coal) in order to bury.

So I propose mining should be renamed, or stopped being used to describe generating Bitcoins.
thanks for your attention

your
Electric Mucus

Mining is not exclusively related to uncovering energy.  Mining gold does not create energy.  Mining iron does not create energy.  Should that be renamed to burying gold?
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