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121  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 24, 2016, 02:23:25 PM
the guaranteed 21mill coin cap and fungibility DOES MATTER.
I sincerely hope the cap stands forever.

I sincerely wish Bitcoins were truly fungible but clearly they aren't (yet).  The growing toolset of taint analysis makes this obvious.  Mixing services help a ton but are at risk.  If Bitcoin is fungible then how do we know which are in Satoshi's stash?  No, fungibility is an illusion for now.
Taking/Destroying/Stealing coins would lead to a mass exodus to a coin that does not do that.  Long term destruction of Bitcoin value, values and ideals.
I see your point; I suggest a compromise; allow some to be stolen (for the good of the community) (eventually) and burn the rest.  We only touch non-hashed coinbase coins.
It is almost garanteed that this idea (destroying coins) will never be implemented so I would invite you to cash in now and leave.  Everyone else that wants this idea will also be disappointed.
I stand down from my position; even if the non-hashed coinbase coins are all allowed to be stolen I will stick with Bitcoin.  I am prepared for a roller-coaster ride.
122  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 24, 2016, 02:07:10 PM
there are gold coins sat in museums ...
Gold has some intrinsic value, gold coins have historic value well beyond that, and also, much of it in museums is made into art; it would be wasteful and very costly to send them into the sun.  Bitcoins have no intrinsic value; nothing is wasted and it would cost very little to render them useless.  Museums are spread out with a variety of security measures in place; non-hashed coinbase coins are all sitting in one place.
Color me naïve then as I believe it is in the best long term interest of Bitcoin to just let the coins be stolen and placed back into circulation.  Everyone will know they were vulnerable, being stolen just proves that, having them stolen will wake eveyone up and get them to move the rest of the vulneralbe coins.  Short term buying opportunity on the dip.  Recovery, etc.
Hmm, this position literally encourages folks to strive to steal them.  Do we actually need to have them stolen to gain the benefits of waking everyone up?  You, I, and some others are already awake before they are stolen.  Can't we gain the benefits any other way?  If not (and I do respect your opinion/thoughts) then I do see your point.  Suppose we compromise and allow some to be stolen (eventually) and render the rest useless.
123  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 24, 2016, 03:08:52 AM
I don't think this makes sense at all. That's like saying because someone hasn't moved their coins 10 years down the road they should be removed/deleted. That's just stupid. If you leave a lot of money in your bank should they just 'get rid of it' if you don't use it for a period of time?
If one's bank has potentially weak locks on their doors then shouldn't the owner move their funds to a more secure place?  If the owner doesn't then shouldn't the community act to thwart theft?
Thwart theft by stealing? Yeah, that makes sense. Not.

Again, the only moral position is that personal property is sacrosanct. The community has no rightful claim upon those coins.
My preference would be to move the non-hashed coins for safekeeping; does come with two big problems;

1) who can be trusted?
2) how do we know when the rightful owner steps forward to claim?

The alternative is to make them unusable.  This is *not* taking them to be used; that truly would be stealing them.  Making them unusable protects the community.  Look, someone is going to steal them eventually.  If the original owner won't act to secure their own coins then the community would be remiss to leave them to be stolen and wreck havoc.

Anyone that believes letting them be stolen and used is the right thing to do is either naïve or doesn't care about the good of the community.  No, give plenty of warning; watch carefully for developments; be prepared to act *before* the coins are stolen.

For what it is worth, I will withdraw from Bitcoin if this isn't adopted in time.  I imagine many others will too.
124  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 23, 2016, 06:07:03 PM
So what happens when we have 21M bitcoin in total? and people wanting bitcoin and those who have just wont sell?
Is it going to be just for a few and not for all the people?
Someone will sell at the right price.  Also, Bitcoins can be divided into portions less than a whole.
125  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 23, 2016, 02:49:04 PM
When do bitcoins deserve to be wiped out? Are we going to destroy Hal's next because they are just going to get stolen? Death = bitcoin destruction?
I have taken steps to pass ownership on when I am no longer able to control them myself.  I am going to improve my plan by directly the new owners to move my/their coins to re-secure them (we don't want anyone thinking they became orphaned).
I don't think this makes sense at all. That's like saying because someone hasn't moved their coins 10 years down the road they should be removed/deleted. That's just stupid. If you leave a lot of money in your bank should they just 'get rid of it' if you don't use it for a period of time?
If one's bank has potentially weak locks on their doors then shouldn't the owner move their funds to a more secure place?  If the owner doesn't then shouldn't the community act to thwart theft?
Down the road if brute forcing private keys becomes possible with quantum computing or other means, then countermeasures would have to be put in place to secure the blockchain. But I have a feeling that before this can/will happen, there will be a means to secure it against such attacks. I am willing to bet that 'quantum-proof' cryptography will be available and used around the same time quantum computing becomes more feasible for the masses.
Only non-hashed signatures put the coins at risk.  All modern transactions secure signatures with hashes.  Only old enough transactions lack the hashing security.  Quantum resistant algorithms are an active area of study already, e.g. hashing.  Not using hashing to secure things now is dumb.

*If* one were to generate new coinbase coins now without securing them with hashing then essentially they are putting them up for grabs.  I propose we enhance Bitcoin;

After some point X, all subsequent coinbase transaction must be secured with hashing or they will be rejected.

This should be very easy to gain consensus for.  Someone would have to work to generate non-hashed coinbase coins now anyway.  If they want to throw new coinbase coins up for grabs then they should find another way to donate them rather than encouraging theft.
126  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 23, 2016, 02:43:54 PM
Instead of destroying Satoshi's stash, how about if we create an address and move the vulnerable coins there for safekeeping?
Safekeeping by whom? There's too much moral hazard with that.
Me.  I can totally be trusted; ask anyone that knows me.  Hmm, unless I am unduly coerced.  Hmm, what about a multi-sig?  Gosh, it would just be so much easier if Satoshi et al would secure their coins instead of burdening the community.
127  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 23, 2016, 02:28:57 PM
Oh.  What does it mean to be "paid directory to a public key, not an address"?  Let's compare https://blockchain.info/tx/0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098 to https://blockchain.info/tx/4d32d3caa4fc7121e48c59e895ff50aa4a80763aea107e7fc82749885aac5e99 and try to see the difference.
Turn on blockchain.info's advanced mode and see if you can find the difference...
Ah, I see!;
Quote
CoinBase
04ffff001d0104
(decoded) ��

Output Scripts

0496b538e853519c726a2c91e61ec11600ae1390813a627c66fb8be7947be63c52da7589379515d 4e0a604f8141781e62294721166bf621e73a82cbf2342c858ee OP_CHECKSIG OK
vs.
Quote
CoinBase
03324b0637e4b883e5bda9e7a59ee4bb99e9b1bcb06f45cd2894bcf1e7177f7beb46152609701e7 c411b1c5c6c17164dea14db9804000000f09f909f0e4d696e6564206279207a6b30303000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
(decoded) 2K7七彩神仙鱼�oE�(����{�F& p|A\lM�ۘ🐟Mined by zk000

Output Scripts

OP_DUP OP_HASH160 c825a1ecf2a6830c4401620c3a16f1995057c2ab OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG OK
The former is not hashed, the latter is.  The hashing makes it QC-resistant.  Leaving the unhashed coins laying around is just asking for trouble.  If the original owner(s) won't act to secure these then the community takes on the responsibility.  If the community doesn't act then I don't want to hear any complaints later.

Are my coins secured with hashes or not?  If they are not then I will act to move them.  How does one determine it?

I own 16V9UivwWtp6iGsaRnWycUjZJBcDDQRmV4 (amongst others).  Two transactions sent coins to it.  Both are secured with hashing.  So, I'm ok, right?  Or are only unspent coinbase coins at risk?  I don't happen to have any coinbase coins so I don't need to worry about my own, right?
128  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 20, 2016, 03:08:49 PM
The Bitcoin client's built-in solo miner paid directly to a public key, not an address. So there's over a million BTC in the form of unspent 50-BTC block rewards which are vulnerable to a break in ECDSA. This is the main concern.

Unspent addresses are OK, at least until quantum computers get so fast that they can break keys within the few minutes between when you spend from such an address to when it gets confirmed. Contrary to what someone said earlier, SHA-256 and RIPEMD-160 are OK. QC halves the number of bits of security for symmetric crypto. SHA-256 has 128 bits of security under QC, etc.  Whereas all asymmetric crypto used today is totally broken (ie. the complexity of breaking a key is polynomial w.r.t the key's length under QC, though it still might take some time).
Oh.  What does it mean to be "paid directory to a public key, not an address"?  Let's compare https://blockchain.info/tx/0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098 to https://blockchain.info/tx/4d32d3caa4fc7121e48c59e895ff50aa4a80763aea107e7fc82749885aac5e99 and try to see the difference.
There is a security difference. See the following.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses[/url]
Ok; so we can derive a Bitcoin address from the private key.  The same algorithm is used in both transactions, right?  We still don't see the relevant difference.
129  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 07:37:18 PM
But regardless, the answer is _no_. The prerogative -- and the responsibility -- belongs solely to the owner.
The owner had best get on with securing his stash before they are taken.  Does it take a quantum computer to take them?  Can a classical computer take them in a reasonable amount of time/effort?  Should I be making an effort to take them?  In the meantime, the market participants should take the risk into a account and discount the exchange rates.  Or are we saying they already have?  I doubt it.  If/when a Satoshi coin moves then the markets will react.  Until then the working assumption is they won't ever move.  Since the movement would likely wreck havoc then there is something to talk about.  If enough "voters" want to eliminate this risk then they can.  Don't sit on a pile and expect the rest of humanity to ignore it.  If nothing else the rest of humanity can abandon Bitcoin for something else without that particular risk.
130  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 07:08:34 PM
With today's technology, it is trivial for a thief to crack a door key and ignition key on many cars. Given enough immoral actors, and enough time, every such vulnerable car is a candidate for theft. We do not preemptively steal all such cars "for the common good". Because such is theft would be evil. Even if we were to subsequently crush any such vehicles that were "fixed" in this manner, it is still evil. And the fact that if we did not do so, leaving the theft to another who might subsequently sell the vehicle, would marginally reduce the value of all our other vehicles on the used market does not change the fact that preemptive confiscation is inherently evil.
Shouldn't we instead move the car(s) to a more secure location until the proper owner steps forward to claim?
131  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 06:56:08 PM
The Bitcoin client's built-in solo miner paid directly to a public key, not an address. So there's over a million BTC in the form of unspent 50-BTC block rewards which are vulnerable to a break in ECDSA. This is the main concern.

Unspent addresses are OK, at least until quantum computers get so fast that they can break keys within the few minutes between when you spend from such an address to when it gets confirmed. Contrary to what someone said earlier, SHA-256 and RIPEMD-160 are OK. QC halves the number of bits of security for symmetric crypto. SHA-256 has 128 bits of security under QC, etc.  Whereas all asymmetric crypto used today is totally broken (ie. the complexity of breaking a key is polynomial w.r.t the key's length under QC, though it still might take some time).
Oh.  What does it mean to be "paid directory to a public key, not an address"?  Let's compare https://blockchain.info/tx/0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098 to https://blockchain.info/tx/4d32d3caa4fc7121e48c59e895ff50aa4a80763aea107e7fc82749885aac5e99 and try to see the difference.

Instead of destroying Satoshi's stash, how about if we create an address and move the vulnerable coins there for safekeeping?
132  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 06:07:30 PM
I hear what you're saying and I'm intrigued, because it implies my somewhat simplistic understanding of encryption technologies may be wrong here.  However, if it were so simple, then why would there even be a discussion about earlier coins being more vulnerable?  If any existing (or technically non-existing) private keys could be used to match up to existing bitcoin addresses using a different DSA, then the only addresses that would ever be vulnerable are addresses that have been used as outputs or signed against using the old DSA.  In that case, the majority of the coins being discussed here that were mined and never touched would be safe unless blocks were once generated including a signature for the address the reward was mined to and that was subsequently changed some time ago.  So, what gives?
Perhaps the quality of the private keys are in question.  If a private key is generated with good randomness then it shouldn't be vulnerable.  If a private key is generated with poor randomness then it is vulnerable.  If the Satoshi (or anyone else's for the matter) private keys are at risk then having them age out seems like overkill.  Let the lucky bad actors take them.  The owners of such can move them before they are stolen to an address derived from a superior private key.

If the quality of the private key isn't in question then what the heck are we talking about?  If I sign and distribute a bunch of messages using my private key then each of those messages give the bad actors more data to attack.  If I never sign and distribute even a single message then I am just depending on the quality & security/privacy of my private key.  The block reward comes into existence without any signatures.  Only outputs require signatures.  Move coins to a fresh address (one that has never been used to sign) and it is safe.

Destroying anyone's coins to eliminate the risk of them becoming active is wrong pure and simple.

Is someone worried that Satoshi or anyone else is at risk of being coerced?  Destroying their coins hardly seems the appropriate response.
133  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 05:24:23 PM
does QC resistant DSA ever exist ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice-based_cryptography & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McEliece_cryptosystem
134  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 04:59:55 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography
135  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 04:51:35 PM
Point of information:  it is not the hashing algorithms that are QC vulnerable it is the ECCDSA that is vulnerable.  If/when QC becomes a reality we will have no trouble convincing a majority to move to a new DSA.  Deciding exactly which new DSA to move to may be an issue but after a lot of the standard drama that accompanies all decisions in Bitcoin, I believe a new DSA will be picked and we will move to it.  The hashing algorithms used can and will also be replaced/upgraded as needed (just not due to QC).
Oh.  Where is ECDSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm used in Bitcoin?  If that can be changed without me giving up my current private keys and Bitcoin addresses then this whole topic is noise.
Found it; https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm.  So, yeah, this topic useless; move on.
Actually, this discussion is all about whether or not you should have to give up your current addresses.  Any new algorithm would require new addresses and new private keys.  Your existing private key and address could not be ported (for lack of a better word), and the discussion technically revolves around whether or not you have the right to keep using the pair even after it could be vulnerable to attack.
No.  The private key and corresponding public key (a.k.a. your Bitcoin address) do not have to change at all.  Rather, if/when we change the DSA from ECDSA (which is QC vulnerable) to another DSA which is QC resistant then your wallet software will have to be changed to use the new DSA; that's all; nothing else.

If we don't change the DSA to one that is QC resistant then bad actors (with enough moxie) will be able to sign messages moving bitcoins they have no right to move.
136  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 04:35:43 PM
Point of information:  it is not the hashing algorithms that are QC vulnerable it is the ECCDSA that is vulnerable.  If/when QC becomes a reality we will have no trouble convincing a majority to move to a new DSA.  Deciding exactly which new DSA to move to may be an issue but after a lot of the standard drama that accompanies all decisions in Bitcoin, I believe a new DSA will be picked and we will move to it.  The hashing algorithms used can and will also be replaced/upgraded as needed (just not due to QC).
Oh.  Where is ECDSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm used in Bitcoin?  If that can be changed without me giving up my current private keys and Bitcoin addresses then this whole topic is noise.
Point of information:  it is not the hashing algorithms that are QC vulnerable it is the ECCDSA that is vulnerable.  If/when QC becomes a reality we will have no trouble convincing a majority to move to a new DSA.  Deciding exactly which new DSA to move to may be an issue but after a lot of the standard drama that accompanies all decisions in Bitcoin, I believe a new DSA will be picked and we will move to it.  The hashing algorithms used can and will also be replaced/upgraded as needed (just not due to QC).
Oh.  Where is ECDSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm used in Bitcoin?  If that can be changed without me giving up my current private keys and Bitcoin addresses then this whole topic is noise.
Found it; https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm.  So, yeah, this topic is useless; move on.
137  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theymos: “Bitcoins Belonging to Satoshi Should Be Destroyed” on: May 19, 2016, 01:01:48 PM
0) I care most about eternal life; as such I don't see where the topic of old Bitcoin private keys matters much.

1) Within this pre-eternal lifetime, I do care some about my Bitcoins; are they vulnerable?  Can one imagine a quantum computer (or anything else) that could crack my private keys?  If so then when (the sooner, the better) should we develop a system that can resist it?  It seems to me it will take an active step to migrate to it.  After some point the current private keys shouldn't be honored anymore.  Anyone that misses the cutoff effectively lose their Bitcoins.
138  Economy / Speculation / Re: GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: April 26, 2016, 02:30:19 PM
All new investments (including follow-on by existing investors)  are subject to 12 month holding period
That doesn't match what I was told.  I have sent an email to Grayscale asking for clarification and will post the response here when I get it.
My bad; per Rule 144 http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rule144.asp there is a 12 month holding period effectively making arbitrage way too slow.
139  Economy / Speculation / Re: GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: April 26, 2016, 01:30:35 PM
All new investments (including follow-on by existing investors)  are subject to 12 month holding period
That doesn't match what I was told.  I have sent an email to Grayscale asking for clarification and will post the response here when I get it.
140  Economy / Speculation / Re: GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: April 25, 2016, 12:37:49 AM
Still no good way to arb this then??
I wish.  It took me most of a year to push through to real liquidity (although technically that is unproven until I do sell at least a portion, hmm).  I do believe it would go faster the second time but to arbitrage it would require something less than a month for me to be comfortable and more like a few days to really crank it up.  I might take a second smaller lot in just to try; they did indicate that I wouldn't have to take a full $25K in since I'm already established.  If I do then I will report back.

I am reluctant to take out any of what I've got in already for fear of missing a jump up while goofing around trying to get it back in.  I am as long-minded as one can get.  That said, I've got as much of my total wealth in already that I'm comfortable with.  $70.90/$42.60 is a crazy huge spread and very tempting.
Isnt arbing next to impossible because you have to hold atleast 1 year?
Apparently that only applied to the original investment; new funds going in now are converted to GBTC without any holding period at all.
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