when DEVS shout how BITCOIN is broken and cant scale
    (it can but DEVS are just choosing not to go down that road)

when DEVS shout how BITCOIN is not currency/money/cash
    (it is but DEVS just want people hoarding a useless database in the future)

when DEVS shout how BITCOIN needs to be de-burdened of its utility
   (if you make a coin useless, its value becomes useless)

wasting 3 years so far to stifle bitcoin and too much time to open gateways to other networks. is not in anyway 'innovating' bitcoin. nor is is expanding bitcoin adoption nor promoting bitcoin mainstream.

all its doing is saying that blockchains and bitcoin are crap and that people need to go back to putting funds into contracts with a manager who has to co-sign it.. which is basically saying only fiat works and crypto is broke.

anyway. back to the topic

did people know that when 'fold' offered 'lightning pizza. out of 1500 'invoices' only 150 resorted to fulfilling in actual pizza getting delivered. 10% success rate.

this was not a low success rate due to 'fold' not having enough value to buy the actual pizza
this was not a low success rate due to 'fold' having issues with the pizza restaurants

this WAS a low success rate due to issues within LN

imagine wanting $20 of pizza. so you lock up $20 btc and then get a channel open and try routing it to 'fold' and find out your single route cant. but them coins are locked for a few weeks so you cant just move them to then open a new channel of pegged coins.

imagine then having to lock up another $20 btc to get another channel open with 'fold' and find out LN has froze out $1 of the pegged balance for things like fee's. meaning you cant fullfill the $20 order

imagine you try again. and finally you have enough pegged balance, and a live connection to 'fold'. guess what. you then find out fold is paying for the pizza using giftcards it got at discount

so would it have been easier and cheaper for you to just buy domino's giftcards via gyft where it would have only cost you $18 of btc and you know for sure you then buy pizza without hassle, without LN middlemen, without worries of routing or balance available issues

windfury and doomad your about as boring as carlton and lauda 3 years ago with their social drama

problem being is that you 2 spend too much time on social drama and no time actually researching bitcoin
so. take your 'i kiss devs ass' hat off and think about bitcoin.

basics:
at block 570,000 there will be 17625000 btc created
210,000*50.0=10,500,000
210,000*25.0=5,250,000
150,000*12.5=1875000

lightning stats 'show' about 1000 'btc' are 'on ln'

so at block 570,000.. ask yourself
are there
a) 17625000btc on bitcoins network AND 1000btc on LN
b) 17624000btc on bitcoins network AND 1000btc on LN
c) 17625000btc on bitcoins network AND 1000pegged coins on LN

mr flip flop. unlike u i understand more then you realise
your rebuttle is that
if you imagine A buys a channel of 0.16btc from (B)itrefill for under 0.04btc. the LN channel would look like
A[0.00<>0.16]B

your rebuttle is also for A to the get to touch the 0.16btc.. others need to route funds through.
EG C saying they want to pay 0.16 to A
where
A[0.00<>0.16]B[0.00<>0.16]c
becomes
A[0.00<>0.16]B[0.16<>0.00]c
becomes
A[0.16<>0.00]B[0.16<>0.00]c

but here is where you are not understanding things.
1.this contract
A[0.00<>0.16]B
is not some global community agreed/audited contract. its purely an agreement PRIVATELY between 2 people
(2 nodes)
so A can agree to this contract without even caring about the blockchain. because there is no global community validating that A B's contract has to meet some terms. A and B can shake hands to any agreement they want

2. guess what mr flip flop, because a contract is just between 2 people. they can agree whatever they like.. they are "free to write their own code" for what their private node shakes hand to.
they are "free to choose the rules that they prefer"

3. there is no consensus/no byzantine generals solution in LN to keep a group of people following a select rule.

imagine it this way
99% of LN users ar not going to sit in thier basement with a desktop running a fullnode that checks that the contract they agree with is pegged/backed by a blockchain locked fund
99% of LN users are going to run mobile apps that run 'autopilot' that just auto accepts requests because 99% of people will be at starbucks and grocery stores on their phone. not in a basement
so if A pays 0.04btc and see's a channel of [0.00<>0.16] ofcourse A will agree to it because thats what he damn well paid for
no matter what the blockchain contains A will agree to what A paid for, even if it doesnt tally

i find it shocking how you pretend that blockchain rules of bitcoin are loose and free to individuality. but then flip to think that LN is strict and rule following where 2 private people cant choose things outside a rule

cant you see how your flip flop understanding of consensus just dug yourself a hole
LN has no consensus.

as for windfury.
about the IOU
its logic and also the LN devs themselves say its IOU
if you lock up a KG bar of gold for 60 days in a vault. and then in another location you are playing with 1000grams of something.
A) has the 1kg of gold been taken out of the vault and chopped up into 1000 pieces?
B) is the 'something' a different item thats simply meant to represent 1kg of gold but in more distributable allotments
C) if you knew there could only be X gold and they are all accounted for in vaults and on one system then how can they also be in another system at the same time
D) during the first 100confirms of a blockreward solution. pools are privately discussing and tallying who deserves however many sats of the 12.5btc.... are suddenly the bitcoins that have yet to mature, suddenly become spendable. or are they still locked to the bitcoin network and people are just playing around finding a private IOU agreement that tallies with the total currently locked.

about the fractional reserve
bitrefill let people buy LN channels with balance using DIFFERENT CURRENCIES
bitrefil also let people buy channels with balance for less than the balance
500,000 sats capacityYou pay0.000333 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.001109 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.001663 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.003105 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.003992 BTC

lastly..
my thought process has never been 'believe me/trust me/ first then do research
its always been to just go do some research

do you even understand...

do you even know what the cypherpunks were trying to do for DECADES before satoshi.
do you understand why blockchains invention was so revolutionary.
do you even know the what a blockchain does that an agreement between 2 individuals cannot do.

do you evn know the risks/problems/challenges/bugs/faults/issues that can occur between 2 private individuals that can rewrite their own node. where their nodes are not part of some big community checking system.

i really think you need to understand the pitfals of offchain and the advantages of onchain.. as it seems even though blockchains have been around for 10 years.. you have not learned the problem blockchain solve that private agreements cant and never did

"offchain" is not new tech, its actually old tech re-branded with lots of wishy washy buzzwords

THERE WERE NO INVESTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thus no one to start a class action law suit
NO ONE LOST OUT!!!
PLEASE READ. PLEASE RESEARCH


as for the bitcoin cash drama.. stop trying to get your info from reddit/twitter. you have no clue

by the way.
many people 'have' bitcoin cash.
but thats because they have such old cold stores that they didnt even bother to move out the forks because they dont care about forked coins.

the value of forked coins can swing all it likes and on paper it would show as different value of holdings.
this does not mean a real profit or loss. it just means. untouched/unimportant assets.

for instance i know people that collect beanie babies and first edition harry potter books. but never EVER intend to sell them. so it doesnt matter if the daily/monthly value of what they hold goes up or down, as its value they will never see as fiat, so they dont care about the fiat value, so the fiat value is not important.

also. people scream how bitcoin lost 80% value ($20k -$4k) but the reality is the $20k was not a fair valuation. nor one that anyone took advantage of for anything long term. so most pople nver actually 'lost' that much because they never actually bought at $20k
bitmain dos not 'buy' coins. so would not have EVR had a $20k initial valuation of a hoard of coins.
same with all the forks.
the true underlying value would have been based on how much it cost to mine the coins.. and guess what. bitmain did not mine a hoard of bitcoin cash. instead it got a hoard for free from the forks. thus the cost/initial value was low/nothing. thus any 'sell value' would be profit

learn LOGIC, do research.

technically it was still a ver thing, because ver was involved in blockchain.info. so the human element was not that diffrent, just the paperwork

all your waffle ovr the last few months show you know litrally nothing about whats actually going on.
as for your source of bitmain info (samson mow propaganda) he has no clue either

1. bitmain are not managing all the asics of the pools. the best simplified explanation of bitmains infrustructure is of a licencee/franchise enterprise. private businesses/entities manage diffrent farms that are just leased under the brand of antpool and those private businesses get discountd asics in exchange for aiming the hashpower at a pool.
its like many mcdonalds. not actually run by mcdonalds but they get cheap burger patties and make their own profits. all that ronald mcdonald(wu) has to worry about is getting a fee each month.
most of the income is from selling goods to their franchise's, private individuals and also the OTC stuff.. bitmain do not worry/care for public exchange price movements

2.wu has not lost his job(unlike samson 'butt hurt' mow) wu still owns and heads up bitmain. he just delegated the day-to day operations to someone else.

3. again making $500m Q1 + $500m Q2... then spending $500m q3. does not mean the company is at $500m loss. it means they still have $500m in their pocket.

4. the employee recruitment of late 2017 and then the employee shrinkage of mid 2018 is normal practice of only hiring temps. the contracted (long term) employee numbers are still stable/similar to prvious years = no drastic change/drop

5. the IPO didnt even get to the investor stage. thus no investor loss, thus no investor lawsuit. the chinese regulators didnt even accept the application because the industry is a new concept they dont understand and thus didnt want to regulate it.

6. if you done your research and thre are many real statistical sources you can actually find, should you care to look beyond wiki,reddit,twitter social crap. you would se that bitmain is actually cashflow positive and happily investing in other companies

7. anyway the big picture of bitmain vs bitcoin. bitmain cannot 'chang the rules' of the network. mining is just about collating data into blocks and then using asics to hash a block identifier. so all your social drama that bitmain is a big threat is empty of logic.

8. even your social drama of ver and wright. again empty social drama. they are not even influencers, they are altcoiners. = no impact to bitcoin. they ar just the distraction tchniques used to overt peoples gaze away from the real bitcoin impactors(th bitcoin devs)

9 anyway this topic title. should it have been written 5 years ago durinng the GPU mining days would have just ben as boring as:
"AMD(ati) is mining using openCL" and then having some fool from nvidia cry about how he lost his job because nvidia aint as good but proclaiming that ATI is evil

i signed up for KYC. after all my name is:
Fapril Aools

windfury spend less time with your social drama and spend more time learning about bitcoin
your getting real boring now. and getting too obvious your not on this forum to learn/get things right
your about as boring and unwilling to learn as lauda(anothr core centralist fanboy) was couple years ago, and he was playing the same games u are now. thats how boring you are. nothing new, just same social drama stuff on repeat

meanwhile, to update everyone on the reality

1. anyone can mine with ASICBOOST, infact its best people do. as it gets more hash/sec by doing so = more secure network
2. jihan wu didnt lose his job or get sacked or resign. he now chairman/director of bitmain (promoted himself) and then delegated and put someone else into doing the day-to day job of ceo.
3. bitmain was mining with asic boost for like well over a year before IPO application  in 2018.
4. bitmain didnt lose an IPO due to funding/investor risk not wanting to invest. bitmain didnt even get to the stage of being able to IPO because of chinese regulators not even signing off on the application
5. making 500 in q1 making 500 in q2 and spending 500 in q3 = still having 500 in q3
6. most of the social drama of antpools/bitmain is helmed by samson mow of (ex)BTCC. who is butt hurt that he lost his job with btcc when BTCC didnt survive. so samson is pretending that mining/bitcoin itself is the cause of his recent issues. rather than him losing his job.
7. as for title of this topic.. the IPO thing neds chinese regulators to sign off on the application before investors even get to count a dime/buy a share. so stuff about asicboost has no sway on regulators as regulators involvement in the application stage, is totally different to investors valuation at different stage

they way i see bitmain is the same as i see AMD(ati) in the GPU days

on the bitcoin network.
COINS ARE LOCKED

i can lock coins as much as i like.
this does not mean i am then forced to open a LN channel and play with LN
this does not mean the coins disapear from bitcoin and are now in some channel waiting for me.

it just means bitcoins are LOCKED and unspendable. on the bitcoin blockchain and only on the bitcoin blockchain. (much the same as the 100confirm maturity that coin rewards of fresh minted blocks go through.. they cant be spent for 100 confirms)

the purpose of this is that while locked. the counter party can trust that X coins are not going anywhere. emphasis not going anywhere
emphasis again NOT GOING ANYWHERE...

so while they aint going anywhere. it makes things easier to discuss privately where they should go at some future date.

so on paper, in voice chat, in code or using sign language 2 people can discuss their spending habits and make a IOU/bartab of who owes who what of that unspendable amount. so thy use nakpins oo text chat. or....... pegged tokens store locally in nodes or on servr mysql databases

LN is simply a coded version of a IOU system

PLEASE GO LEARN!!!
even basic common sense, general knowledge, logic

if you honestly think that bitcoins jump out of the bitcoin network, and jump into anothr network.
and then when in a locked channel of 2 counterparts. them (''bitcoins'') then jump channel to channel

then you have some hard lessons to learn

seems you didnt check block data but just decided to reply back, with some random social drama of throwing names around...
this is all old drama being re-stirred up from about a few years ago...

your so out of touch with reality that you actually believe craig is some influencer/source
maybe you should also follow the advice i gave windfury. set your browser to block reddit. that way it controls your impulses to try reading stuff from stupid places

craig wright is not an influencer nor is he of any significance. just like samson mow is of no significance..
by you even mentioning his name shows you have no clue about the reality of what actually affects bitcoin

yea accusations and social drama on rddit and twitter have already happened in the case of segwit and spam drama.. YEARS AGO (your out of date)
but thats where people then went on and done some research and seen block data didnt match the accusations that spam was caused by anyone against core.. but cause using mixers. where the mixers are pro core and added to blocks that were collated by pro core pools

so you ask where, what, which.... well..

where: bitcoin blockchain
which blocks: blocks within 1 month prior to certain core bips needing adoption in 2015-2016
which transactions: the mass of transactions that have the same taint PATTERN and effect of known mixers
why: the 'wu' group were not causing fee wars/spam blocks(you cant fill a block with expensive fee's and lots of low confirm spam if your doing empty blocks)

as for your drama about antpool, wu and ver... seriously please put a browser ban on reddit and actually force yourself to not get your mis-information from places like that.
if you done some real research you would see real info.
seems you would rather spend hours a day learning and trying out some social drama. rather than researching bitcoin data.

though i do wonder why you keep concerning yourself with bitmain/ver drama as your distraction technique
might be worth you atleast researching topics you want to get involved in. EG if you wanna try correcting info.. first have the correct info.

doomad again obsessed with the "blocksize increase" propaganda
seems doomad can only think in small block vs bigblock debate mindset
the transactions per second/day is the main important factor.

transactions per hard drive byte has NOT improved
transactions per second/day has NOT improved

the argument about a maliciously created block taking over 3 minutes to validate could be solved for both legacy and segwit by simply not allowing 5 tx to fill a block with thousands of sigops per tx

even malleability could have been solved for both legacy and segwit..


the actual reason for segwit, was a gateway tx format to be used for locking/identifying UTXO's so that alternative networks, like sidechains, offchains. can exist by pegging coins to the locked bitcoin utxo

the transaction fee 'discount' is just a fake discount using creative accounting of the witness scale factor just to make legacy more expensive

using segwit as a onchain transaction just to make a tx to another peer offers no real world advantage. just the illusion of benefit

wow ending a sentance with 3 capitalised letters.. WOW thats like a real mass of factual information and proof.
...
mayb go do some rsearch next time. check some stats.
gotta love how bottom of the barrel the roadmap defenders get with there 'just mention 3 letters to counter argue'
or their 'wrong coz'.. persons name

but hey, atleast i didnt have to buy a hat.. seems thats the latst thme for a certain group, you need to buy a hat to show your devotion to the roadmap. first it was the UASF hat samson mow was selling now its the virtual hat that gets placed as an forum avatar

evr tried saving money and time, and instead us it towards being independant and looking into the real details

windfury. how about you go check the blockchain data rathr then reddit. you will learn more

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology


broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance


funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding


no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel


oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning
..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

revise history?
here is the most incredible lesson you may learn about bitcoin.
when it comes to bitcoin tx information. you dont learn things from reddit. you actually learn things from the blockchain. yep the immutable blockchain that history cannot be tampered with.

so if you want to use logic rather than reddit. try looking at blockchain data.

as for the whats talking about BTCC suppose to prove.
some funny facts
1. btcc was the mining pool that done alot of fee war drama and spammy crap (hostile)
2. btcc was the pools that was over promising over promoting segwit. but after activation BTCC didnt trust segwit for its own coin rewards
3. btcc was the company that couldnt pay its bills and ended up getting bought out, and dissolved
4. the employee's of btcc pretend things like bitmain are hostile. yet its the btcc ex employees that do alot of social drama propaganda

you might want to do some research. oh and you will find more evidence of btcc's demise, lack of trust of segwit and also the spam fee war stuff by checking immutable blockchain data... not reddit/twitter

but if you would rather trust reddit/twitter drama more than blockchain statistics.. thats your choice

talking about spam
it was actually the core crowd that instigated the spam. as their way of making people think silly half promises core were offering were needed.

i get astonishingly shocked that people actually follow reddit scripts more than basic logic/common sense thoughts

first of all it was proven that mixers rampd up their tx spamming. and yep certain core devs are involved with certain mixers
also pools related to bitmain. were not filling blocks with loads of 1confirm utxo respends. thus it was not bitmain spamming.
also the timing of spam attacks were (not coincidentally) obvious, just by looking at stats to me timed right when cor wanted a bip activated. where opposition would not actually gain anything by spamming at those times

but i guess reddit propaganda vs logic= reddit wins

so here is some basic logic.
reddit propaganda want to suggest anti-cor pools want to ramp up the tx fee.. because they are greedy and risk of going bankrupt

yet
1. anti-core pools happy make blocks and not care about tx fee's (empty blocks)
as oppose to
2. btcc which was very pro core, pro segwit.
3  btcc shown prefrnce to include tx's of its users that also used their other services like gambing(spaming) and partnenrs mixing
4. btcc pools shown to love adding higher than average fee's to thier collate tx lists in a block
5. btcc even got IPO'd by DCG..... are now dead and bankrupt.. which is why you will see all the twitter and rddit scripts sourcing samson mow
funny part is samson mow is butt hurt that he lost his BTCC job but is blaming others