do you even understand...

do you even know what the cypherpunks were trying to do for DECADES before satoshi.
do you understand why blockchains invention was so revolutionary.
do you even know the what a blockchain does that an agreement between 2 individuals cannot do.

do you evn know the risks/problems/challenges/bugs/faults/issues that can occur between 2 private individuals that can rewrite their own node. where their nodes are not part of some big community checking system.

i really think you need to understand the pitfals of offchain and the advantages of onchain.. as it seems even though blockchains have been around for 10 years.. you have not learned the problem blockchain solve that private agreements cant and never did

"offchain" is not new tech, its actually old tech re-branded with lots of wishy washy buzzwords

THERE WERE NO INVESTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thus no one to start a class action law suit
NO ONE LOST OUT!!!
PLEASE READ. PLEASE RESEARCH


as for the bitcoin cash drama.. stop trying to get your info from reddit/twitter. you have no clue

by the way.
many people 'have' bitcoin cash.
but thats because they have such old cold stores that they didnt even bother to move out the forks because they dont care about forked coins.

the value of forked coins can swing all it likes and on paper it would show as different value of holdings.
this does not mean a real profit or loss. it just means. untouched/unimportant assets.

for instance i know people that collect beanie babies and first edition harry potter books. but never EVER intend to sell them. so it doesnt matter if the daily/monthly value of what they hold goes up or down, as its value they will never see as fiat, so they dont care about the fiat value, so the fiat value is not important.

also. people scream how bitcoin lost 80% value ($20k -$4k) but the reality is the $20k was not a fair valuation. nor one that anyone took advantage of for anything long term. so most pople nver actually 'lost' that much because they never actually bought at $20k
bitmain dos not 'buy' coins. so would not have EVR had a $20k initial valuation of a hoard of coins.
same with all the forks.
the true underlying value would have been based on how much it cost to mine the coins.. and guess what. bitmain did not mine a hoard of bitcoin cash. instead it got a hoard for free from the forks. thus the cost/initial value was low/nothing. thus any 'sell value' would be profit

learn LOGIC, do research.

technically it was still a ver thing, because ver was involved in blockchain.info. so the human element was not that diffrent, just the paperwork

all your waffle ovr the last few months show you know litrally nothing about whats actually going on.
as for your source of bitmain info (samson mow propaganda) he has no clue either

1. bitmain are not managing all the asics of the pools. the best simplified explanation of bitmains infrustructure is of a licencee/franchise enterprise. private businesses/entities manage diffrent farms that are just leased under the brand of antpool and those private businesses get discountd asics in exchange for aiming the hashpower at a pool.
its like many mcdonalds. not actually run by mcdonalds but they get cheap burger patties and make their own profits. all that ronald mcdonald(wu) has to worry about is getting a fee each month.
most of the income is from selling goods to their franchise's, private individuals and also the OTC stuff.. bitmain do not worry/care for public exchange price movements

2.wu has not lost his job(unlike samson 'butt hurt' mow) wu still owns and heads up bitmain. he just delegated the day-to day operations to someone else.

3. again making $500m Q1 + $500m Q2... then spending $500m q3. does not mean the company is at $500m loss. it means they still have $500m in their pocket.

4. the employee recruitment of late 2017 and then the employee shrinkage of mid 2018 is normal practice of only hiring temps. the contracted (long term) employee numbers are still stable/similar to prvious years = no drastic change/drop

5. the IPO didnt even get to the investor stage. thus no investor loss, thus no investor lawsuit. the chinese regulators didnt even accept the application because the industry is a new concept they dont understand and thus didnt want to regulate it.

6. if you done your research and thre are many real statistical sources you can actually find, should you care to look beyond wiki,reddit,twitter social crap. you would se that bitmain is actually cashflow positive and happily investing in other companies

7. anyway the big picture of bitmain vs bitcoin. bitmain cannot 'chang the rules' of the network. mining is just about collating data into blocks and then using asics to hash a block identifier. so all your social drama that bitmain is a big threat is empty of logic.

8. even your social drama of ver and wright. again empty social drama. they are not even influencers, they are altcoiners. = no impact to bitcoin. they ar just the distraction tchniques used to overt peoples gaze away from the real bitcoin impactors(th bitcoin devs)

9 anyway this topic title. should it have been written 5 years ago durinng the GPU mining days would have just ben as boring as:
"AMD(ati) is mining using openCL" and then having some fool from nvidia cry about how he lost his job because nvidia aint as good but proclaiming that ATI is evil

i signed up for KYC. after all my name is:
Fapril Aools

windfury spend less time with your social drama and spend more time learning about bitcoin
your getting real boring now. and getting too obvious your not on this forum to learn/get things right
your about as boring and unwilling to learn as lauda(anothr core centralist fanboy) was couple years ago, and he was playing the same games u are now. thats how boring you are. nothing new, just same social drama stuff on repeat

meanwhile, to update everyone on the reality

1. anyone can mine with ASICBOOST, infact its best people do. as it gets more hash/sec by doing so = more secure network
2. jihan wu didnt lose his job or get sacked or resign. he now chairman/director of bitmain (promoted himself) and then delegated and put someone else into doing the day-to day job of ceo.
3. bitmain was mining with asic boost for like well over a year before IPO application  in 2018.
4. bitmain didnt lose an IPO due to funding/investor risk not wanting to invest. bitmain didnt even get to the stage of being able to IPO because of chinese regulators not even signing off on the application
5. making 500 in q1 making 500 in q2 and spending 500 in q3 = still having 500 in q3
6. most of the social drama of antpools/bitmain is helmed by samson mow of (ex)BTCC. who is butt hurt that he lost his job with btcc when BTCC didnt survive. so samson is pretending that mining/bitcoin itself is the cause of his recent issues. rather than him losing his job.
7. as for title of this topic.. the IPO thing neds chinese regulators to sign off on the application before investors even get to count a dime/buy a share. so stuff about asicboost has no sway on regulators as regulators involvement in the application stage, is totally different to investors valuation at different stage

they way i see bitmain is the same as i see AMD(ati) in the GPU days

on the bitcoin network.
COINS ARE LOCKED

i can lock coins as much as i like.
this does not mean i am then forced to open a LN channel and play with LN
this does not mean the coins disapear from bitcoin and are now in some channel waiting for me.

it just means bitcoins are LOCKED and unspendable. on the bitcoin blockchain and only on the bitcoin blockchain. (much the same as the 100confirm maturity that coin rewards of fresh minted blocks go through.. they cant be spent for 100 confirms)

the purpose of this is that while locked. the counter party can trust that X coins are not going anywhere. emphasis not going anywhere
emphasis again NOT GOING ANYWHERE...

so while they aint going anywhere. it makes things easier to discuss privately where they should go at some future date.

so on paper, in voice chat, in code or using sign language 2 people can discuss their spending habits and make a IOU/bartab of who owes who what of that unspendable amount. so thy use nakpins oo text chat. or....... pegged tokens store locally in nodes or on servr mysql databases

LN is simply a coded version of a IOU system

PLEASE GO LEARN!!!
even basic common sense, general knowledge, logic

if you honestly think that bitcoins jump out of the bitcoin network, and jump into anothr network.
and then when in a locked channel of 2 counterparts. them (''bitcoins'') then jump channel to channel

then you have some hard lessons to learn

seems you didnt check block data but just decided to reply back, with some random social drama of throwing names around...
this is all old drama being re-stirred up from about a few years ago...

your so out of touch with reality that you actually believe craig is some influencer/source
maybe you should also follow the advice i gave windfury. set your browser to block reddit. that way it controls your impulses to try reading stuff from stupid places

craig wright is not an influencer nor is he of any significance. just like samson mow is of no significance..
by you even mentioning his name shows you have no clue about the reality of what actually affects bitcoin

yea accusations and social drama on rddit and twitter have already happened in the case of segwit and spam drama.. YEARS AGO (your out of date)
but thats where people then went on and done some research and seen block data didnt match the accusations that spam was caused by anyone against core.. but cause using mixers. where the mixers are pro core and added to blocks that were collated by pro core pools

so you ask where, what, which.... well..

where: bitcoin blockchain
which blocks: blocks within 1 month prior to certain core bips needing adoption in 2015-2016
which transactions: the mass of transactions that have the same taint PATTERN and effect of known mixers
why: the 'wu' group were not causing fee wars/spam blocks(you cant fill a block with expensive fee's and lots of low confirm spam if your doing empty blocks)

as for your drama about antpool, wu and ver... seriously please put a browser ban on reddit and actually force yourself to not get your mis-information from places like that.
if you done some real research you would see real info.
seems you would rather spend hours a day learning and trying out some social drama. rather than researching bitcoin data.

though i do wonder why you keep concerning yourself with bitmain/ver drama as your distraction technique
might be worth you atleast researching topics you want to get involved in. EG if you wanna try correcting info.. first have the correct info.

doomad again obsessed with the "blocksize increase" propaganda
seems doomad can only think in small block vs bigblock debate mindset
the transactions per second/day is the main important factor.

transactions per hard drive byte has NOT improved
transactions per second/day has NOT improved

the argument about a maliciously created block taking over 3 minutes to validate could be solved for both legacy and segwit by simply not allowing 5 tx to fill a block with thousands of sigops per tx

even malleability could have been solved for both legacy and segwit..


the actual reason for segwit, was a gateway tx format to be used for locking/identifying UTXO's so that alternative networks, like sidechains, offchains. can exist by pegging coins to the locked bitcoin utxo

the transaction fee 'discount' is just a fake discount using creative accounting of the witness scale factor just to make legacy more expensive

using segwit as a onchain transaction just to make a tx to another peer offers no real world advantage. just the illusion of benefit

wow ending a sentance with 3 capitalised letters.. WOW thats like a real mass of factual information and proof.
...
mayb go do some rsearch next time. check some stats.
gotta love how bottom of the barrel the roadmap defenders get with there 'just mention 3 letters to counter argue'
or their 'wrong coz'.. persons name

but hey, atleast i didnt have to buy a hat.. seems thats the latst thme for a certain group, you need to buy a hat to show your devotion to the roadmap. first it was the UASF hat samson mow was selling now its the virtual hat that gets placed as an forum avatar

evr tried saving money and time, and instead us it towards being independant and looking into the real details

windfury. how about you go check the blockchain data rathr then reddit. you will learn more

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology


broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance


funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding


no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel


oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning
..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

revise history?
here is the most incredible lesson you may learn about bitcoin.
when it comes to bitcoin tx information. you dont learn things from reddit. you actually learn things from the blockchain. yep the immutable blockchain that history cannot be tampered with.

so if you want to use logic rather than reddit. try looking at blockchain data.

as for the whats talking about BTCC suppose to prove.
some funny facts
1. btcc was the mining pool that done alot of fee war drama and spammy crap (hostile)
2. btcc was the pools that was over promising over promoting segwit. but after activation BTCC didnt trust segwit for its own coin rewards
3. btcc was the company that couldnt pay its bills and ended up getting bought out, and dissolved
4. the employee's of btcc pretend things like bitmain are hostile. yet its the btcc ex employees that do alot of social drama propaganda

you might want to do some research. oh and you will find more evidence of btcc's demise, lack of trust of segwit and also the spam fee war stuff by checking immutable blockchain data... not reddit/twitter

but if you would rather trust reddit/twitter drama more than blockchain statistics.. thats your choice

talking about spam
it was actually the core crowd that instigated the spam. as their way of making people think silly half promises core were offering were needed.

i get astonishingly shocked that people actually follow reddit scripts more than basic logic/common sense thoughts

first of all it was proven that mixers rampd up their tx spamming. and yep certain core devs are involved with certain mixers
also pools related to bitmain. were not filling blocks with loads of 1confirm utxo respends. thus it was not bitmain spamming.
also the timing of spam attacks were (not coincidentally) obvious, just by looking at stats to me timed right when cor wanted a bip activated. where opposition would not actually gain anything by spamming at those times

but i guess reddit propaganda vs logic= reddit wins

so here is some basic logic.
reddit propaganda want to suggest anti-cor pools want to ramp up the tx fee.. because they are greedy and risk of going bankrupt

yet
1. anti-core pools happy make blocks and not care about tx fee's (empty blocks)
as oppose to
2. btcc which was very pro core, pro segwit.
3  btcc shown prefrnce to include tx's of its users that also used their other services like gambing(spaming) and partnenrs mixing
4. btcc pools shown to love adding higher than average fee's to thier collate tx lists in a block
5. btcc even got IPO'd by DCG..... are now dead and bankrupt.. which is why you will see all the twitter and rddit scripts sourcing samson mow
funny part is samson mow is butt hurt that he lost his BTCC job but is blaming others

you still got no clue.
i really worry about the source material that your getting.
everything from understanding bitcoin. byzantine generals theory, consensus, blockchains, what segwits purpose is, what mining is how the mining industry is structured. even stuff like LN.

you spend soo much time repeat the same boring false stuff propagandised around reddit and twitter. and yet after sooo sooo many months i have not yet seen an original and independent thought.

just imagine if you just took a month and used that month to really learn things about bitcoin. instead of getting involved in the social drama

what i have been continually telling you is this:
1. LN is NOT the bitcoin network. LN is its own separate network
2. just like all altcoins just because a transaction (for settlement) look like a particular format does NOT make them a bitcoin transaction
3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain
4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER
7. the channel is just an agreement/promise between 2 parties. a contract. yes a promise/agreement/contract are all the same thing

even a marriage contract is a promise. a commitment is a promise. but there is no 100% guarantee its final. its an ongoing thing that can change. "i PROMISE to love honour and obey in sickness and in health"
LN is not a immutable settled fund. its a promise. AKA an IOU
LN is not 8 decimil measured. its 12 decimal. so its not even the same unit of account. thus is pegged
EG
imagine you bought $10 of game funds. the game funds are 10000millidollars.. they are not $10. they are pegged balance to represent $10 but they are not actually $10.
same thing with 'stablecoins' they are not real fiat, but pegged tokens to represent real bank balance.

only the bitcoin blockchain is the final immutable state
if its not on the blockchain its not a guarantee, its just a promise, hope/maybe

8. there is no community support to audit the LN payment values tally against bitcoin network locked funds. it is just the channel partners that agree they are happy with how the channel is set up (what happens in channel stays inchannel)
9. if i paid you ~$4k in fiat. i would not care how you done it but i would want/expect/agree to a LN channel with ~1btc in LN balance..
10. if i paid you $400 i would be more than happy and agree to getting 1btc in LN balance
11. after the playing around with LN balance has been done. the balance is NOT sent to the bitcoin network. instead it goes back to you (or in the case of bitrefill, them) and they aggregate and decide what to do next.
12. once you update your research on watchtowers and factories you will learn that bitrefill is acting like a factory. they create the value and the channel party just agrees with it. thats how LN works(emphasis point 8 )

my answer to this is. its not the basement dwelling hobbiest who sets up a node that allows 8000+ connections to be a good 'hub'. as thats then just socio-political risk of getting caught if they dont register as a custodian/msb.
plus these hobbiest hubs wont have the liquidity to honour their promises of funding say $60 each for 8000 users ($480,000)

its the established businesses that self declare they are regulated custodians and are publicly advertising that for X fee they offer quality trustable service and best online % uptime, best liquidity of routes and best chance of route success. all available in exchange for some registration/basic ID requirements

.. after all why do you think things like coinbase.com are so popular even with kyc headaches and 1.5% fee's..
because people think that regulation=protection/trust/honour

after all.. in a world where paper money is still a thing. why do you think people even bother using a bank.
its never truly about 'force' its about planting the utopian thought that something is great if you use a commercial service/ network which has restrictions/limitations/headaches, but its fluffy cloud utopian benefits outweigh peoples freedoms
thus people voluntarity give over thir id.
(facebook is great example of Id/lifestory grabbing service, in exchange for some fluffy service/benefit)

physical conferences are also called seminars
virtual conferences are called webinars.

found it strange they not using the latest lingo

fractional reserve on LN. it has begun

https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/lightning-channel/

500,000 sats capacity You pay 0.000403 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.001341 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.002011 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.003753 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.004825 BTC

until windfury understands a millisat is not a sat.(payment contract vs broadcast tx 2 different things)
until windfury understand a signed payment channel is not a signed bitcoin transaction
until windfury understand the concepts of factories, watchtowers.
until windfury understands that what happens inside a channel is not a blockchain
until windfury understands the LN is not bitcoin
until windfury understands LN is not community audited, regulated, consensused
until windfury understands LN does not have the byzantine gnerals solution
until windfury actually spends more time researching LN before promoting it.

then there is no point

wind fury. lets get back to basics.
imagine just the bitcoin protocol
if there was a bitcoin signed tx. but it is never broadcast, never relayed never enters anyones mempool...
is it a settled transaction paid in full?

if someone wrote you a cheque for $1billion. its signed. but has not ben submitted to the banks to be cleared.
is it a settled transaction paid in full?

knowing channels are just 2 party, no community oversight. where if you paid me $1 i would open a channel with you to credit you with 2btc channel. (obviously ur happy with the deal as its me at risk, not you)
and due to the privacy stuff. the routers dont blockchain check every nodes balance. they just htlc request 'can you handle 2btc' to which you would say yes. alot of things can get messed up in LN.

you really need to go research this stuff and not just spout out the utopian sales pitch