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Sorry so many posts, but I think you guys are highly underestimating the effect of Murphy's Law as new layers of complexity are added.
The masses are not highly motivated to sort through that.
What seems no brainer simple to you, is unfathomably complex (or just not worth figuring out) to them.
Just downloading the Bitcoin client is too complex. That is why they join if they get an email from Coinbase to click a link.
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You are asking people to change all the ways they think about money: - Money is now taxable.
- Money takes 10 minutes to an hour to spend.
- Credit cards can lose their balances.
- Credit cards have no refunds nor consumer protection.
People don't change even one thing easily, much less such a laundry list, unless there is some amazing compelling reason for them to. People are like cows. They want to go along "mooo, mooo". They don't want new things or hassles, unless it is about Britney Spear's navel or their Xbox. |
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BS. That was sales tax and Amazon collected it directly on checkout. It was no hassle at all.
No. Look it up. They didn't collect state sales tax for years. For example they started collecting CA state sales tax in 2012. States argued that (if Amazon had a physical presence in the state) but this was disputed because it violates the interstate commerce clause and the States only got their way by getting Amazon to deduct the taxes. We are not talking about an ambiguous issue like that. The IRS has made it very clear what the culpability is. |
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Lots of tiny gains for every day transactions. No you won't. Even I won't. Hassle. Major hassle.
And don't tell me about software. I have a word for you n00bs:
interoperability
I am software guy. You are not.
Exactly. Tiny gains that nobody will bother to report accurately, and nobody will bother to enforce. Software is not even relevant here, but I'm a software guy.
You want to do something illegal when we are headed into severe totalitarianism? Do you know the fee penalties and criminal liabilities that can be accessed for willful failure to file? You are talking about a former time that I remember fondly in my youth. Do you realize the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world, 10 to 100 times per capita higher than Europe? https://www.cpa2biz.com/Content/media/PRODUCER_CONTENT/Newsletters/Articles_2012/CPA/Nov/PenaltyAbatement.jspIn 2011, the IRS assessed 38.6 million penalties to taxpayers, totaling almost $31 billion. According to the IRS, the purpose of penalties is to deter noncompliance, not to raise revenues. http://www.wallandassociates.net/irs-penalties.htmlCriminal Prosecution
You may be subject to criminal prosecution by the IRS with the intent of having declared guilty and jailed for (brought to trial) for actions such as:
• Tax evasion (remember Al Capone),
• Willful failure to file a return, supply information, or pay any tax due, Again the point is that people will have a reason to avoid Bitcoin. It doesn't matter to what degree you think the actual threat is. It adds yet another reason to the long list of reasons why Bitcoin sucks as a currency, e.g. 10 - 60 minute transactions, no consumer protections, etc. It is as if you guys are completely out-of-touch with the way the real world works.  You are in your little tech nerd fantasy bubble. Come out and play amongst the common folk. |
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About the tax planning+timing issue. You just don't get it. Normal people already have no incentive to use Bitcoin and now they will really stay away from it. Why fuck with the hassle? Most people don't even know what a Schedule D is.
New software? Have you tried using H&R Block? I do every year, and they are the experts on simplification. My ex can't figure it out. I have to do her taxes this week.
I'm sorry but this is nonsense. For years people were required to declare and pay state sales tax on everything they bought from Amazon.com. Guess how many people stayed away from Amazon because of this? None. Either they did the accounting work or they just fucking ignored the IRS. Eventually Amazon was pressured into collecting the tax because the state governments had no way to enforce it. I suspect Americans will do exactly the same with bitcoin CG that they did with Amazon state sales tax. It will be an inconsequential amount for 95% of users, they will ignore it and the IRS will do jack squat about it. It will cost more to audit than the revenue it will bring in. BS. That was sales tax and Amazon collected it directly on checkout. It was no hassle at all. |
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the common man is not. He has all sorts of things to balance, such as reporting his unemployment assistance, tax credits, solar installation energy credit, alternative minimum tax, etc....
It would be a very uncommon man who managed the complexity of the tax code at that level of detail. I think the overwhelming majority either outsource tax concerns and take general advice from experts, or simply don't plan at all. Definitely a software development opportunity in any case. I still want to know who AnonyMint is referring to that is going to get burned by the IRS policy on bitcoin. Read my prior post, I said it is not so much about getting burned rather about it not being worth the hassle. I have friends who work in call centers. Do you realize how many Americans can't figure out how to turn on their cell phone? Even my mother who is intelligent would never use Bitcoin if it means another form for her to add to her IRS filing. I asked her. It's not poor people, they owe no tax at all.
They collect the most refunds. It's not rich people, they are already accustomed to handling CG with their other investments, and their use of bitcoin as a currency will incur negligible CG tax compared to their investment activity.
The rich people are not the target market for a currency. If we are talking about the fundamental adoption among white males, I already agreed this hasn't been affected. It's not middle class people like me - given a choice between taxes on gains and no gains at all, I choose gains.
Lots of tiny gains for every day transactions. No you won't. Even I won't. Hassle. Major hassle. And don't tell me about software. I have a word for you n00bs: interoperability I am software guy. You are not. |
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The other near-term implication of the tax ruling is the margin call on miners who have to get cash before April 15. Ditto in China apparently with April 15 deadline to sell and get out before exchanges close. So we have perhaps persistent selling for next 2 weeks. About the tax planning+timing issue. You just don't get it. Normal people already have no incentive to use Bitcoin and now they will really stay away from it. Why fuck with the hassle? Most people don't even know what a Schedule D is. New software? Have you tried using H&R Block? I do every year, and they are the experts on simplification. My ex can't figure it out. I have to do her taxes this week. Do you realize how stupid Americans are? They voted for Obama.  None of that affects the fundamental adoption by fanatical white males, but it is enough to bust the bubble run we've had and cause capitulation among all the weak hands. And I think there are a lot of newbies that bought at $600 - $1000 who are sweating it right now. Then there are those who are sure it can't go lower than $400. Some of them might capitulate as it breaks down from there. We don't have the system of Sweden. IN the USA, everyone is afraid of the IRS. Or at least they don't want to add hassle with IRS just to use some stupid technobabble money that they don't need any way. |
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I don't see enough capitulation yet. Risto needs to buy too high first.  Now I see that you need sleep. I have as many bitcoins now as I had a year ago, but bought a castle and have sizable fiat reserves with the profits. "buying too high" can only attributed to my name if the speaker does not see the picture  Who needs sleep when they mistake a joke for a serious statement? Can't you tell that I see you are emotionally flustered and I am poking you. Now you played your pride card. Risto you will talk all strong then if it goes lower you will say you only put 60% odds on it bottoming. You try to play both sides and always be seen as correct. |
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Here come those (newbies who don't know shit) who want to chase me away again (I was last here on pages 3xx). No problem. I can leave and come back silently to take your money instead.
Where is that foul mouth retard slyA?
Closed-source is already an indication of trouble. Also lack of detailed description of algorithms, at the level of detail necessary for a programmer like to analyze properly. Developer's statements are too general and lack detail.
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Remember you have my divide-and-conquer idea to fall back on as last resort, so everything isn't lost no matter what. It is not very ideal solution though.
ErrorId, I already addressed that in my posts today. What you quoted doesn't change my point.
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If it turns around I would start worrying after it passes 550 I have a question to the bears. If the price does in fact go the other way at what level will you start buying back? At what level will you panik buy?
so everything lower 550 would be just a bulltrap for you? i think that will be the problem for the bears, as soon as the green volume bars start to be larger than the red volume bars, it could be the reversal or only a bull trap.  I don't expect a V reversal. I am waiting for it to get errie quiet after everyone has capitulated and exhausted their fiat capital. I expect a long U reversal. Well we have a U forming. I don't see enough capitulation yet. Risto needs to buy too high first. I am not certain. I just don't see any reason the bottom should be here. Why? What happened to make it a bottom? Recent sentiment isn't exhausted yet. It is just getting started. Most don't even understand the tax implication issue yet. |
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If it turns around I would start worrying after it passes 550 I have a question to the bears. If the price does in fact go the other way at what level will you start buying back? At what level will you panik buy?
so everything lower 550 would be just a bulltrap for you? i think that will be the problem for the bears, as soon as the green volume bars start to be larger than the red volume bars, it could be the reversal or only a bull trap. I don't expect a V reversal. I am waiting for it to get errie quiet after everyone has capitulated and exhausted their fiat capital. I expect a long U reversal. However working against my scenario is the bottom price rises about $10-15 per week that this drags out. |
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I never had to do that with dollars." THAT'S BECAUSE YOU HAD NO GAINS BEFORE.
Read my post above this one, so you can have an epiphany. The issue is that gains impact tax brackets and credits and all sorts of tax planning. So you can't just take all the gains you can get. You have to restrict yourself to scenarios. This ruins the timing of being able to spend money when ever you want to. At least this is how impacts some people. Maybe your tax situation is different and you take all the gains you can get, because you are in an investor class. But the common man is not. He has all sorts of things to balance, such as reporting his unemployment assistance, tax credits, solar installation energy credit, alternative minimum tax, etc.... P.S. We do have gains with dollars when we trade for another investment. Yet we are not charged for those gains until we sell and come back into dollars. |
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I just read a comment in the Darkcoin thread where a user said he bought in too high and is tempted to sell but is holding on.
These are the ones who capitulate when there is blood on the streets. I bet he sells at $300.
There is no blood yet. They are still hodling on.
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A wallet that tracks your fiat cost base is important to develop so that U.S. people can pay taxes, but "discussion" about it among people who don't have the capability to make it (not to say it is difficult because it is a standard requirement for enterprise accounting since 1800s) is moot.
The issue is not just record keeping and calculation, but also planning and timing. The timing on planning interferes with the timing-fungibility of money. This is one of the reasons why investments are not money. He missed the point. If everyone has to factor the timing of tax planning into the timing of spends, then money sometimes loses the main reason it existed, which was to remove the gridlock caused by barter due to mismatches of the timing of what trading parties wanted to trade. For example, you want to buy that $1000 item, but this would move you into a higher tax bracket for the year, so you must wait until after Dec. 31. You set up your wallet software such that it automatically spends the last earned coins, which makes it a wash generally (or yields a small gain for which you need to pay taxes and be happy that you get to keep about 60-90% of the purchasing power that would have been 100% lost to inflation in the case you had been using USD instead of Bitcoin). This is similar to using currency. If you are spending more than you earn, then your wallet spends the coins that were accumulated earlier, in which case you suffer a larger tax hit. This is similar to selling your investments for profit, and paying taxes. Can someone else explain why this is the end of Bitcoin because I fail to see it? You still don't get it. It may have nothing to do with minimizing BTC gains. The issue is that tax law is complex. For example there is a $1000 Tax Credit where if you earn less than a certain amount or more than another higher amount, you don't get the credit. So it happens that you are ready to spend BTC on Dec. 23rd for Xmas gift, but it would push over the bracket and you lose $1000. So you need to decide to not spend until Jan 1 (much too late for Xmas). Thus Bitcoin wasn't money for you. I never had to do that with dollars." THAT'S BECAUSE YOU HAD NO GAINS BEFORE.
Read my post above this one, so you can have an epiphany. The issue is that gains impact tax brackets and credits and all sorts of tax planning. So you can't just take all the gains you can get. You have to restrict yourself to scenarios. This ruins the timing of being able to spend money when ever you want to. At least this is how impacts some people. Maybe your tax situation is different and you take all the gains you can get, because you are in an investor class. But the common man is not. He has all sorts of things to balance, such as reporting his unemployment assistance, tax credits, solar installation energy credit, alternative minimum tax, etc.... |
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A wallet that tracks your fiat cost base is important to develop so that U.S. people can pay taxes, but "discussion" about it among people who don't have the capability to make it (not to say it is difficult because it is a standard requirement for enterprise accounting since 1800s) is moot.
The issue is not just record keeping and calculation, but also planning and timing. The timing on planning interferes with the timing-fungibility of money. This is one of the reasons why investments are not money. He missed the point. If everyone has to factor the timing of tax planning into the timing of spends, then money sometimes loses the main reason it existed, which was to remove the gridlock caused by barter due to mismatches of the timing of what trading parties wanted to trade. For example, you want to buy that $1000 item, but this would move you into a higher tax bracket for the year, so you must wait until after Dec. 31. You set up your wallet software such that it automatically spends the last earned coins, which makes it a wash generally (or yields a small gain for which you need to pay taxes and be happy that you get to keep about 60-90% of the purchasing power that would have been 100% lost to inflation in the case you had been using USD instead of Bitcoin). This is similar to using currency. If you are spending more than you earn, then your wallet spends the coins that were accumulated earlier, in which case you suffer a larger tax hit. This is similar to selling your investments for profit, and paying taxes. Can someone else explain why this is the end of Bitcoin because I fail to see it? You still don't get it. It may have nothing to do with minimizing BTC gains. The issue is that tax law is complex. For example there is a $1000 Tax Credit where if you earn less than a certain amount or more than another higher amount, you don't get the credit. So it happens that you are ready to spend BTC on Dec. 23rd for Xmas gift, but it would push over the bracket and you lose $1000. So you need to decide to not spend until Jan 1 (much too late for Xmas). Thus Bitcoin wasn't money for you. |
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If we assign a penalty payment transaction to the Participant before step 2, then the adversary can refuse to provide the penalty payment transaction
Why not have the master node simply wait until the required number of participants have actually provided the collateral payment transaction? This should take the same amount of time whether or not a DOS is occurring, because that depends on the rate of legit participants trying to enter the pool, which is unaffected by the illegitimate participants. You are very confused. The point is the inputs have already been provided. Providing the inputs didn't take 0 time. Thus refusing to provide the collateral payment forces us back to step 1 again and repeat the collection of the inputs. How do you ban the participant who refused to provide the collateral payment? By IP address? So he uses a botnet. Or in other words: I don't see why a refusal to provide collateral by one participant has to kill the pooling process. They could simply be ignored beyond that point (and perhaps eventually banned), and the pooling continue.
Ignored how? You collect the inputs you don't know who the bad guy is yet. Then you find out who he is, so you must repeat the collection of the inputs (to get rid of his input because you don't know which one it is). How do you ban him from the repeat? By IP? He will use a botnet have zillions of IP addresses. Botnets cost $100. I'm not technical....but (I asked before) What if DarkSend has a de minimis payment requirement. Participation is costly for everyone apart from those that want the service, when the cost is considered in the context of obtaining value. Entering the network requires fees to be paid, so why not say darksend minimum of $x transaction value, with x% fee. Using darkcoin is relatively cheap. Using DarkSend is an extra feature with added cost. Then you have multiple cost barriers within the system making attacks pointless to those who attack for trivial reasons, I would have thought. The same way PoW for email was considered to avoid spam. The transactions are being handled by the wallet. Isn't there a way to make anyone that develops a wallet the equivalent of having to go through https? Do you mean everyone pays a fee to enter a CoinJoin? Even when it fails due to DOS? |
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I remember that one. I remembered telling myself, "if I want to buy this is my last chance under $100". I knew it was going higher. I didn't buy for numerous reasons (not having capital positioned, had not evaluated tax implications, being preoccupied with illness, not stable in one work place haphazardly landing to plug in computer, etc). Now I know it is going lower. |
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If we assign a penalty payment transaction to the Participant before step 2, then the adversary can refuse to provide the penalty payment transaction
Why not have the master node simply wait until the required number of participants have actually provided the collateral payment transaction? This should take the same amount of time whether or not a DOS is occurring, because that depends on the rate of legit participants trying to enter the pool, which is unaffected by the illegitimate participants. You are very confused. The point is the inputs have already been provided. Providing the inputs didn't take 0 time. Thus refusing to provide the collateral payment forces us back to step 1 again and repeat the collection of the inputs. How do you ban the participant who refused to provide the collateral payment? By IP address? So he uses a botnet. Or in other words: I don't see why a refusal to provide collateral by one participant has to kill the pooling process. They could simply be ignored beyond that point (and perhaps eventually banned), and the pooling continue.
Ignored how? You collect the inputs you don't know who the bad guy is yet. Then you find out who he is, so you must repeat the collection of the inputs (to get rid of his input because you don't know which one it is). How do you ban him from the repeat? By IP? He will use a botnet have zillions of IP addresses. Botnets cost $100. |
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