BCB man you've watched too many movies.

You need a new hobby, or just something that makes you feel important in the real world, so you don't have to puff your self up with drama and self importance on here. I'm sure your heart is in the right place but that kind of "Be afraid, be very afraid" stuff just makes you look a little unhinged.

About 10% of my liquid assets are in Bitcoin, if we use today's USD values.

That wasn't a deliberate decision though, I bought the coins when they were considerably cheaper. At the time it was a tiny proportion of my assets, more like the type of money I'd spend in a big weekend. I wouldn't put 10% of my assets in Bitcoin now, by any means.

I know that logically that means I should cash out the coins until I have a less risky proportion invested, but there's a psychological difference there.    However, the knowledge that I have so much in Bitcoin makes me choose my other investments more conservatively.

I've also cashed out a proportion of my original investment in the past, so no matter what happens I am still way up on Bitcoin. It's performed many times better than any other investment I have ever made. However I got seriously lucky with timing.

If for any reason I felt like it was more than I could afford to lose then I'd cash out in a heartbeat. No one, no matter how much they believe in the concept, should have more than they can afford in Bitcoin.

The people who have ridiculous proportions of their money in Bitcoin, in my opinion, are making an irrational decision. Perhaps it is greed, perhaps it is zealotry. For whatever reason, they have a confidence in Bitcoin that defies logic. Good luck to them, but it a car crash waiting to happen in my opinion. I couldn't sleep at night!

It's on the way. 

What type of legal practice are you involved in Nolo? Just for the sake of my own curiosity.

Go and crawl back under the rock you crawled out from. I know it makes you feel like a big man to try to scare people, but no one is worried by your stupid FUD.

I don't have an opinion on this matter yet. I think that it's impossible to determine based on the information available.

I think there are a few countries where it may very well be a crime, and a few court decisions in a few countries makes it look likely.

I think to say that similar cases in a few countries = a specific truth in all countries is pretty nuts.

The fact you are 100% sure of this, despite the lack of specific evidence, leads me to believe that your conviction is based on zeal rather than any kind of intellectual analysis. It's based 100% on assumption, and yet you defend it to the death as an absolute truth. Bizarre.


That's true. Lack of filed charges isn't proof of anything. It just seemed like you were saying to him "Oh you don't think stealing Bitcoins is a crime, do you? Well go and steal some coins, you won't get away with it!"

Which is ridiculous when so many people have gotten away with doing just that. Everyone who has ever stolen a coin has successfully gotten away with it. It's a 100% avoidance of prosecution rate.

Haha man what a weirdo. 

He doesn't have to put it to the test. Hundreds of other people have done that for him. There have been hundreds, if not thousands of Bitcoin thefts over the years, amounting to millions of dollars worth of coins.

Prosecutions - 0.
Criminal charges brought - 0.
Arrests - 0.

I'd say the hypothesis was pretty well tested.

Also, I have no idea why you wish to claim with absolute certainty that Bitcoin theft would be regarded as a criminal offense by every court in the world, despite a lack of evidence for that point. You seem very passionate about this issue, to the point of being quite rude to those who disagree with you. Your passion makes me wonder if your conviction is based more on a kind of "Bitcoin zeal" rather than an intellectual conclusion that you have reached. The fact you make grandiose claims based on your assumptions (such as "Bitcoin theft would be recognized as theft by any country with a functioning legal system") makes me further question the rigor of your thought processes. Also, please forgive me if this sounds rude, but I've noticed you have problems with comprehension and a lack of critical faculties.

There are a few people on this forum who are so enamored with Bitcoin that they refuse to acknowledge has any shortcomings whatsoever, and they become irate when confronted with evidence to the contrary. From reading your post in this thread I believe you fall into this category, so there's not really much point in engaging with you. It would be like asking the Pope to consider the merits of open minded Agnosticism.

Are you out of your fucking tree? Those aren't the real underlying questions being asked. The morality of stealing Bitcoins is nothing to do with this thread.


This thread is about discussing whether the contents of a piece of paper actually mean "stealing Bitcoins is illegal."  If you find it a waste of time, then please don't post in this thread. Furthermore, I would suggest that you might find better uses of your time outside the legal subforum, since you don't seem to have an interest in the law.


Jesus, what is wrong with you?

If you want to live in a fantasy where the law has no impact on your life, then please, go and live that fantasy elsewhere. Certainly don't come in here and accuse us of living in a fantasy for acknowledging reality, you slowly melting cum-popsicle of a man.

In all honesty it seems pretty clear to me that the answer to this problem is:

"Who knows?"

[With the exceptions of the countries I mentioned in the OP]

It's incredibly hard to determine something unless a legal precedent has been established.

When a case involving the theft of Bitcoins (or a very similar digital item) goes through a court and results in a prosecution, or Bitcoins are specifically named in a piece of legislation, then we won't have a clear answer to this question.

My pleasure. Another thing to consider is, as I think I already mentioned, that it might be a better investment to buy coins and watch them increase in value rather than buy mining equipment and mine. If you aren't a wealthy person it might be more wise to have liquid investments that you can cash out on instantly in an emergency, plus it may end up making you more money in the long run. Worth considering for anyone who is starting to take the plunge into Bitcoin. Personally if I was getting involved in Bitcoin that is what I would do.

So what? I already acknowledged that there is a good chance that the Dutch legal would prosecute theft of Bitcoins. I appreciate you providing additional evidence to support that, but there is no need to be so combative about it. As you saw in the OP, I had already mentioned the Netherlands. I think it's more relevant to the debate if you bring up something I haven't already acknowledged, don't you? Many other people have made great contributions to the debate, but all you have done is reiterate a point I already made and try to somehow use it against me, haha.


Really? What a big assertion. EVERYWHERE there's a functioning legal system you say? Hmm...

I haven't seen you provide any relevant evidence from Columbian law, or the legal code of Burkina Faso.

Seems to me like you are using Dutch law as evidence for a global standard!

Don't you realise that:


 

I think you have been shmoking too much of those lovely Dutch spliffs, yesh?

My personal opinion is that it is because Bitcoin attracts people with Libertarian political opinions. Libertarians are greedy by definition, and they are often of low intelligence too (although not always). Combine greedy and stupid people with an irreversible, anonymous currency and you have a scammers paradise.

From what I've read, it's not so simple. At least not in the US or the UK. It seems like intangible property is quite strictly defined, and Bitcoin doesn't really fall under any of the definitions.

I don't understand this checking account comparison. I'm not sure how one would steal a checking account. Obviously they could steal the contents, that would be pretty simple, but to steal the actual account is a curious thought. It seems fairly impossible. It seems to me that you don't actually own a checking account. You own the money inside. The account is merely a way of keeping track of that money. Can you elucidate a bit on this idea so that I understand what you mean?

Do you think that Bitcoins fall under the legal definition of property? If so, why?

Also, what do you think about situations where someone transfers Bitcoins under false pretences?

I think the most compelling argument that stealing Bitcoins isn't illegal is the fact that Pirate's identity is known, yet he hasn't been prosecuted.

What, you think that it couldn't happen?


You think no one has ever been killed for that type of money?

I don't think it's particularly likely, I don't condone it, but it is a possibility. This is a country where almost anyone can go and buy a gun. A bullet in the head could extinguish Sam's life. Forever.

You would be foolish to assume that "stand your ground" laws will protect you from being killed for this type of money. If someone shows up on your doorstep of course you could shoot them before they get a chance to do anything. You are safe in your home (unless of course someone is willing to take a chance and bring more guns and more people than you have access to) but I am assuming you do leave your home sometimes.

You could die as a result of this investment scheme.

Amazingly, I mentioned the Netherlands in the OP

That's not how it works. You can't just explain something to a court. There has to be a law against it.


Do they? How can you be so sure?


That's right. That is the problem.


There are no general laws for society. That's not how the law works. There are specific laws for specific situations. Legislation is not the ten commandments from the Bible.

It should, but a lot of people in this forum have a religious devotion to Bitcoin. They are happy to talk all day about the strengths, but they don't even want to acknowledge that it has weaknesses. Bitcoin is excellent but it's important to take an extra special level of care over it. You have to be more careful with Bitcoin than any other type of money, much more careful. When people are reminded of this, others bury their head in the sand and say it is just "fear, uncertainty and doubt." But fear, uncertainty and doubt is a healthy thing when you are involved with Bitcoin. It shouldn't stop anyone from using it, but you need to mitigate your risks.



This isn't really a good reason to get involved with Bitcoin, I don't think. Bitcoin isn't a get rich quick scheme. It's not even a get rich scheme.

Many people made a good amount of money from Bitcoin, and they all took a big risk. It could easily have gone the other way, and many people lost money too. However, the rewards are much less now. It's so much harder to mine coins. You need to risk everything you put into Bitcoin, just like the early pioneers did, but even if you are successful you won't make as much as they have. The risks are the same, but the rewards are much smaller. And the odds are stacked against you.

If you think of it like a casino, and you are always aware that anything you spend on Bitcoin could be lost forever with no profit, then it it can be a good investment. Just don't let it ruin you, because Bitcoin business is highly risky gambling for a lot of different reasons.

I don't mean to discourage you, just warn you against taking too big a risk.

Cheers.