That's someone that will always be counted on to measure EV in fiat. ^^^
Why not?? What should I measure in? Jaffa cakes? Gold? Some other commodity? When BTC is a real and useful currency I'll treat it as one, until then it's a commodity much like gold. I paid in pounds converted to dollars...and I'll measure success or failure by how many pounds I end up with in the long distant future. I don't expect to be spending any BTC for a long long time unless there is a massive benefit to me in doing so. I don't want to end up like pizza man  |
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I paid with PP because unlike bitcoins it's quick and simple, same as anything I buy online. There's not much point in PP for chargeback purposes working out well since it's 45 days only and we all knew that KnC weren't going to make it in 45 days. I'd never buy anything worthwhile with BTC, it's just not sensible at all and it's certainly not as simple or protected as other options. If a company ONLY accepts BTC I have to assume they have a reason and it's not usually going to benefit me. One thing that BFL did for all of us was to make us aware of almost everything that we could fall foul of when getting involved in pre-ordering rigs and paying for them. Got to thank them for being so completely incompetent and customer unfriendly I think, and so unlike KnC so far thankfully |
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C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.
..or use their heads and pay in flat which varies very little and removes that problem as a few others. Is there any benefit in paying for a pre-order miner in BTC at all? No protection, massive swings in exchange rates...two of the reasons it's hardly used mainstream never mind on stuff like this. Why do we mine for Bitcoin again? Can someone remind me please? Because the above post makes it sound quite worthless! Lol. If most people are honest..the answer to that is also the reason not to use it to pay for rigs...because we hope they will in time rise in value. Some people do it from altruism and to bring about a new world order. lmao. |
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Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap? Oh - did they? Got a link to the post? I missed it. I'm curious as to what their reply was - they never replied by email. "Secondly with regards to CGminer, and it’s opensource protocol we’ve been able to configure our device unassisted and made a greater than 30% performance increase using the underlying code, for which we would like to thank both kano and ckolivas with their outstanding contribution to the community." Rude of them not to reply to you I think, although they do thank you in that update. |
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There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery. So I don't see much risk. Then you're just not looking very hard. Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800. But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent. Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk. C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair. ..or use their heads and pay in flat which varies very little and removes that problem as a few others. Is there any benefit in paying for a pre-order miner in BTC at all? No protection, massive swings in exchange rates...two of the reasons it's hardly used mainstream never mind on stuff like this. |
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Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap? |
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cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.
Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions. Valid questions? Where were they? We all know the schedule and that there won't be any working rigs planned for now so how the hell can there be any of the tests or pics or anything other than the info we've all seen already (including that article the troll rushed off to read that was linked in this thread long ago but obviously not read by someone keen on spreading negativity). Like through the keyhole, the clues are here, you just need to see them. If pointing out that the time for a working rig hasn't come yet is being a fanboy that's fine with me...round these parts we call it literacy. |
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Yup 145 billion difficulty. That seems highly likely.
Tick Tock Tick Tock.. Hickory dickory Doc..
Break Even Period: 86 days Total Fixed Costs: $5150
Max Profit: $932 (May-14) - 18.1% Monthly Power Costs: $69.1
Month Difficulty (MM) Time per
Block (days) Monthly Revenue Monthly
Profit Cumulative
Return
Nov-13 272 34 $2,910 $2,840 $(2,310)
Dec-13 482 60 $1,640 $1,570 $(734)
Jan-14 853 106 $929 $860 $125
Feb-14 1510 188 $525 $456 $581
Mar-14 2673 332 $296 $227 $808
Apr-14 4731 588 $168 $98 $907
May-14 8374 1041 $95 $26 $932
Jun-14 14823 1842 $54 $-16 $917
Jul-14 26236 3261 $30 $-39 $878
Aug-14 46438 5771 $17 $-52 $826
Sep-14 82196 10215 $10 $-60 $766
Oct-14 145486 18081 $5 $-64 $7
loooooooooooooooooooooool 1.5 Billion Difficulty in Feb - 12/PH 2.6 Billion Difficulty in March - 20.8/PH 4.7 Billion Difficulty in April - 37.6/PH 12PH is relational to 30,000 Jupiters 20.8PH is relational to 52,000 Jupiters 37.6PH is relational to 94,000 Jupiters. If it would help you understand how stupid you are I would draw you a picture and use crayons. Its only ~ 470 million USD. I am sure the forum warriors have that as pocket change. Yea I am sure it will slow down once the 17 other ASIC makers start releasing their modles in Aug(Already) Sept, Oct, and Nov. But you should be able to buy you a box or two of crayons with your profit.. Maybe not 3 boxes.. So. YOu're saying that there's other manufaturers, and that the hashrate will rise a lot? Wow. Who knew? Oh wait...everybody, that's who. |
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Ahh, now we know for sure they are hand assembling the rigs. I little surprised TBH but in the new forum sticker competition post it says :-
Why a 25 cm circle? Speed of manufacture is everything in the Bitcoin mining game; you want to make use of your mining devices as soon as possible, as do we. There is little point designing graphics that take time to position with absolute accuracy, so we need to limit the load on our assembly staff.
So there we go.
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I would keep ALL the coins that i mine, and buy stuff i need.
Thats how you support the community of BTC in 2 way's : you mine and buy with BTC
Profits will decline eventually so be wise on how you spend it.
There will be another crash if you believe the reason why most people intend to mine in the first place
So they can retire from work (hahahaha) al those calculators (except for the gen.block)
Promise amounts of money most people won't ever get close to.
This is how i would do it, wait for the NEXT big crash, wait untill it gets back up on a decent USD/BTC price again
And maybe then sell some, but i have high hopes for the long run (10 y or so) so i would still keep some.
(Btw all the investments i made, i did that with spare money i wouldnt care if i would lose, so im already happy with any income on BTC)
If that's not the most sensible post so far it's definitely top ten. |
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You pay VAT on things you PURCHASE, not on things you create. Not all things you purchase attract VAT either, gold and currency for example don't among many other items.
VAT is a way for government to collect tax from the consumer by using businesses to do this. VAT is also 20% not 23% here. If you can claim the VAT back, you can more than likely claim the computer equipment as a capital business expense and get some of the cost back from the tax man too.
Hi Timmers, sounds like you might be in the UK (sorry if I've made a gross assumption here). I've been wondering this for a while and you (or others) may have an accountancy background and may be able to advise. My understanding is that if you're a VAT registered business in the UK then you can buy items for the business without VAT (or claim it back in your quarterly VAT return), but you are then obliged to collect VAT at 20% for any goods or services that you provide to your customers (unless they are also a VAT registered businesses) and fill in a quarterly VAT return for HMRC where all of this is calculated. I presume that if you are buying mining hardware for your business and your business does not use this to provide a VATable service to a customer then you presumably don't need to pay any VAT (which I think is what you're saying above). You would just need to pay tax on the income that the miner generates for the business. The only danger with this setup might be that if the business is not charging anybody VAT (so not providing any other goods or services) then HMRC might revoke the business' VAT-registered status. If you were to buy a miner without VAT and then sell it to a customer then it's clear that you would need to charge the customer VAT on the price of the miner. Here's the difficult one - if your business buys a miner and then sells shares in that miner (or shares in what it produces depending on your outlook) to customers then do you need to collect VAT on top of the price of the shares that you sell? If the miner technically remains the property of the business, but shares are sold that return a proportion of the miner's output (perhaps with some hosting fee applied by the business) then what part of that transaction is VAT applicable to (is the hosting fee the service)? Any thoughts anybody? (By the way, when I say "you" above I'm talking about a hypothetical business by the way, not you or anybody else personally) VAT is a minefield, that's why many businesses in the UK stay under the threshold to avoid the hassle. I think the mining business could be one where it is simple enough and beneficial to be registered though. My mate is a freelance programmer, he is also his own limited company. He is VAT registered as his turnover is above the threshold. This makes him more expensive to pay by 20% but as he works for large companies they claim that back...this is what is a the pest, the paperwork for nothing. What is cool though is that all his equipment and allowable expenses are fed to the tax man, and any VAT he pays he can recover. He is a small business and pays an accountant but doesn't need to really. I asked him about this and was thinking of getting him to pay for my rig, then he could claim back that VAT and some tax relief too. His accountant said no problem. Even with the purpose of this bit of computer equipment being to mine coins..he said the same thing I thought...how would anyone know that? It's office equipment to them and they won't have a scooby doo what a bitcoin is, and even if they did...what amount would they tax you on? He said that the tax man would probably come into it when you made a capital gain selling BTC. Either way they can't check what you have. lol AFAIK there's no VAT on shares in a company..I've never paid any. If the business was well set up I'd bet that only services provided to customers would attract VAT. I'd definitely consult a decent VAT accountant though. One thing about the VAT man, he's got some really kickass powers and can make a mess of you if you get it wrong. You can also mitigate that power cost if you're a company. I think a lot of people with big mining setups could do well registering a company for less than 100 quid and registering for VAT and just making a loss ...getting all the perks on what they buy and what power is used. I used to claim 1/4 of my home lecky bill when I was working from there, that's very normal.  |
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People does not think! WHY should anyone sell a device which are generating $1600+ per month for about $ 400  make sense, doesn´t it? Simple answer. Greed. They put on their greed goggles and see only a huge profit. All sense is lost. Same type of person who sends money to claim their Nigerian gold mine. lol |
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At the current rate this unit will generate $1,669 in one month! Don't be left behind when Bitcoin mining goes to the next level HAHAHA holy misleading. http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator> 5GH/s = per Day ฿0.03 $3.74 per Week ฿0.20 $26.19 per Month ฿0.88 $113.75 Hardly $1669 a month. And that's at current rates. By the time the guy gets the miner, could be months from now, it'll be worthless. LOL everyone who is bidding is just clueless at how bitcoin works. They're probably thinking 'ohshiii a money printing machine. I'm set for life. I can finally retire!'. lol. Yeah, sad really. Goes to show you that what you're used to in the way of knowledge isn't what's going on elsewhere. The sad part is that although we know that is a con, it's not provable. Some poor bugger is going to think exactly what you said  |
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If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.
Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.
That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year. no. the vat a business has to pay is the vat it GETs FROM customers. a business does not pay vat, it´s the customers. the business only collects it. when you buy soemthing as a business the invoice contains vat, but you deduct this vat from the vat you are collecting from your customers (= no vat). if you buy something from another country that is in the EU for your business, there will not be any vat. +1. Mota, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Business inputs aren't Vat-able. A business can sell to another business within the EU without charging VAT as long as the recipient business quotes their EU VAT number, but it does have to be a cross border trade to be able to do this. So, if you're mining as a business, do you pay VAT on the mined coins? Edit: That would be the consequence. You pay VAT on things you PURCHASE, not on things you create. Not all things you purchase attract VAT either, gold and currency for example don't among many other items. VAT is a way for government to collect tax from the consumer by using businesses to do this. VAT is also 20% not 23% here. If you can claim the VAT back, you can more than likely claim the computer equipment as a capital business expense and get some of the cost back from the tax man too. |
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I am pretty sure that given the volume KNC won't be using automated unit assembly (PCB will be assembled by automated pick & place machines). All bitcoin hardware is relatively low volume (for now). Hundreds or even low thousands of units doesn't warrant automated assembly of major components. BFL problem isn't hand assembly it is a) they over promised (lied), b) they didn't met power/cooling project and had to scrap everything and redesign, c) they have been utterly incompetent in maintaining supply chain. BFL with automated assembly wouldn't be any further along in the backlog. It simply would have cost more.
Having had boards done.. no, they better be using automated unit assembly. It's not expensive. For a run of 1000 or less units? That works out to ~20 a day. Sure. Where do those numbers come from? It's a lot more than that. Also they are modular units that should probably be suitable for the next gen if they planned well which seems likely. The cases are nothing to manufacture, probably a design that already exists slightly modified to suit...they are probably already done. I think we'll be surprised how quickly they fly out once they get rocking. |
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Whoa, someone just put 15 BTC on Yes >_>  Someone knows something. Think it might be Sam or Andreas? If I were them and I knew we'd be hitting our target, I'd place that bet. Heck ya. That's the whole purpose of an information market, to monetize sharing expectations. And only someone really confident or with insider info is gonna spend $1500... $1950 betting on this (damn, bitcoin being worth more than $100 is really screwing with my estimated math these days  ) Or someone's either a gambling addict or they've got a massive amount of BTC and 15BTC isn't a lot to them. I would have put more in but right now I'm doing all my bitcoin "gambling" with labcoin stock  Paying off a lot better then this bet will, so far. I did put in a yes bet earlier when the odds were better. well KNC has 44 days to get my miner to me. Let the countdown begin
Even if they had working prototype it would be hard to assembly+ship all preordered units in time - look at BFL Heard of automated manufacturing lines (as opposed to BFL's manual labour crew)? Actually, my guess would be they're doing manual assembly. The thing is - unlike what BFL tried to do with insourcing that, there are actually companies out there you can hire to do your box building for you. Foxconn is the well known example, but companies like that exist everywhere. Here in the U.S as well as sweeden, I'm sure. The cost and time to setup an automated line aren't insubstantial, and for a small run of a few hundred to a thousand units it might be cheaper to hire humans to do it, even at sweedish rates. You can see their system will be quite simple to install. You just take a metal frame, stick in 2-5 circuit boards (depending on the thing thing) Connect a few wires, and then screw in the heatsinks. It shouldn't take more then 5 minutes. They don't even need to attach the PSU. The cost is tiny. A new program ..nothing more. Seen it done dozens of times. That's the whole point of CNC machines. If you have the machine capable of doing the work, the program is all you need and a few jigs that can be made in a day. Everything that is manufactured is made this way now. Nothing can be dome by hand in volume due to cost and quality control...and don't try me on that subject if you want something to shit out of tomorrow |
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Hi guys, Does KnC allow you to sell / transfer orders? I have an order for a Saturn that I might need to part with  . Thanks Go get a refund yea we are all concern with NO NEWS on the Asic Chip. No "we all" aren't. Nor are we all concerned that we might not be able to have a crap tomorrow, but if that happens we'll deal with it we can work the matter out. |
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I honestly don't think KNC will have all these preorders filled by end of October. I haven't seen a Knc Asic chip yet, and it is already going on September. They'd have to have everything lined up just right if they expect to get chips installed on the board without any issues and everything communicating right. Not to mention to assemble all these units and then ship out all these orders by end of October, they'd need one hell of a team.
Without seeing a chip already, I'd be surprised if they'd even have a physical prototype ready by Oct 1st.
Where is your 28nm Asic Chips?News on Slogan, PCU, PSU, Prices, etc.., but nothing on the Chips, Where are the Chips? Still at the Design stage?Talk about selective reading and impressive trolling. Tapeout ? Miss that part? |
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I personally think that people should calm the fuck down and stop paying real money for vaporware.
Why? How does it benefit you if they do? Have you signed up for the new BFL referal scheme, where they give you a rig for every 10 KnC rigs you put people off buying ? |
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