The thing with a ponzi scheme is that it eventually will have to collapse, and when it does, everybody still in will lose everything. However with bitcoin you might see massive price increase, a bubble. But once it pops the price will only fall to a certain point because people will eventually start buying again once they feel the price is right. And also, if bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, so is all other currencies.

Sure, but Baron is unable to prove that he sent 3000$ worth of LibertyReserve money to buy 9000 BTC. It's very easy to prove, all he has to do is post transaction batch, date and account numbers and we can go to libertyreserve and automatically validate that the transactions did in fact occured. It screams scammer in my ears.

Now I'm not sure why he would be stupid enough to first steal 45 000$ and then deposit it back, but this isn't anything we can prove/disprove, it's a case mtgox has to deal with. All we know is that such transactions did occour. Also, it wasn't mentioned anywhere how much money was stolen from mtgox as far as I know. It would make more sense if Baron pulled off several libertyreserve scams and then deposited into mtgox while thinking he would be safe by using multiple IPs but getting busted by his lack of knowledge about bitcoin and how his transactions can be traced.

Sounds like there are lots of goodies coming up. Thanks to mtgox for his great job so far and welcome to MagicalTux Will be interesting to follow the progress, especially the legal part.

If you are not a liar, why is it impossible for you to also prove the 9000 BTC for 3000$ LR transactions using LR transaction logs?

I personally don't know much about mtgox and base my trust mostly upon others experience. In other words, I trust him as an honest guy. However I do not believe that he is running a legal business (following all required laws). I do not blame him for this, but I think his site is constantly at very high risk from authorities all across the world where he is operating (bank accounts). I can imagine one or several of his bank accounts being frozen eventually, and that could lead to the loss of our money, or a large part of it anyway. On top of that there has been several security breaches. I currently trust him with a 4-digit amount and I think I could trust him with a small 5-digit if a substential amount was stored as bitcoins (this is just based on a wild guess that mtgox will not let bitcoin-holders suffer if bank accounts are frozen).

In summary, I trust mtgox as an honest guy, but I don't think his business will be left alone forever.

He did send ID (according to himself): http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg56018#msg56018

But did he according to mtgox...?

Doesnt seem so..

Ok Baron:
1. Give transaction logs for your trade with man on IRC. It's simple, you know the dates it occured.
2. Send 0.01$ from your libertyreserve account to a few trusted members to prove that you possess account.
3. Provide logs from IRC of you trading, you know who has logs and you know the dates.

Lol, that's just too much. If you want to prove your innocent, you have to answer some of these critical questions Baron. Until then, I think we will all be in favor of mtgox's explanation.

To demand private scans for all the public to see is beyond reasonable.

That said, Baron has proved that transactions to mtgox DID occur, however he hasn't proved that it's HIS account. So, Baron, are you willing to prove that it's YOUR LibertyReserve account by sending 0.01$ to a couple of trusted members here?

If Baron does that, it could still be that the account is stolen, but it certainly adds more credibility to his story. The more proofs that confirms the story, the better.

Also, why nothing about the IRC logs. Why? A member here said he could provide logs, why do you not retrive those logs and prove yourself?

Victim doesn't wait one month, he sends e-mail on Jan 9th, 2011. That's the same day as last transfer. Based on this we can assume that the victim didn't access his account for about 2-3 days and conclude this theory false.

2011-01-07 02:49:29 - 3134.8 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-08 10:27:16 - 3174.6 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-09 10:47:30 - 3096.9 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-09 11:36:00 - Victim sends an e-mail to mtgox.

Nope, read: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54637#msg54637

Wrong, it was reported on January 9th 2011 (victim sent mtgox an e-mail on this day). An investigation as been going on since then by mtgox and on February 13th he froze Barons account. Why such a long time before account frozen? I don't know. We can speculate that mtgox used the honeypot technique waiting for Baron to deposit so that he could freeze funds and potentially return it to victim.

Also I think the most important proof that Baron was scamming currently is that he first said "1 trade on IRC", but later (after proof of 3 transactions) changes the story to "trades was going on for 5 days", and despite spending 5 days on the IRC channel cannot remember nick, "scammers nick" og even channel name. And to top it all off, the logs of bitcoin-btc is available and baron could easily read logs for January 7th-January 9th and instantly remember his nick. Why won't he?

Yes, there is a BTC limit aswell.

"He is making a combined limit of $1000 USD per day for both BTC and USD."

but also note:

"A couple of people had asked him to withdraw more and he has quickly enabled this."

Read more: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1861.0

That is very interesting information, thank you. So basically, it seems like the scammer use mt. gox as wallet then. That makes it more difficult to investigate this futher.

Some very interesting information in favor of Baron:

Out of 3096.93, about 3000 was sent directly from accounts with generated bitcoins.
Out of 3174.6, about 3100 was sent directly from accounts with generated bitcoins.
Out of 3134.8, it looks like most are also sent from accounts with generated bitcoins (but too many accounts to check)

In other words, mostly clean money, right?

don't trust me, check for yourself:
http://blockexplorer.com/address/1DVQEpTFjxYpZMVy4Bam9MCxeGEtmMmQCh

There is no problem, just trying to get the full picture. You forgot your IRC nick, channel name and nick of scammer. Fair enough. Is there any logs for this channel? That could be useful.
Well, you asked how mtgox know? Simple, you withdraw money to address A, then you send money to address B. Scammer also sends money to address B. Mtgox, me, you, everybody can see where you send money. In other words, we can see this link.

http://blockexplorer.com/address/1DVQEpTFjxYpZMVy4Bam9MCxeGEtmMmQCh
http://blockexplorer.com/address/19n8ogD8imviHn9iZSpmUgdZqjTuDxzDwv

Yes, but that's not my question.

Let me try again.

1. Why did you make 3 trades with scammer and NOT just 1?
2. Why can you not remember IRC channel, your nick OR your scammers nick?
3. You had to visit the channel 3 times, correct? Since you traded 3 times?

I want to know if it is true. It's not statistics, it's your bitcoin pocket, YOUR wallet.
I want you to see if there is any mistake, if so, please correct it so that we can have a clear picture of what's going on here.

And also, it explains how mtgox found out about you.

The scammer sent you 3 payments, not 1.
2011-01-07 02:49:29 - 3134.8 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-08 10:27:16 - 3174.6 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-09 10:47:30 - 3096.9 BTC (in) ---> From scammer

Why? And if you look at the dates, each payment was 1 day appart. In other words, you had to go back to IRC 3 times, correct?

Not only will it cost a lot to hire lawyers, but what if he hides money from the government? Tax evasion? who knows? There are many reasons not go hire lawyers and I don't think that should be used as an argument in this discussion. It's the same arguments I hear all the time from socialists wanting complete surveillance, "you don't have anything to hide, do you? Then what's the matter?".

According to baron:
Guy in IRC sends money to: 1DVQEpTFjxYpZMVy4Bam9MCxeGEtmMmQCh (First seen: 2011-01-07)

Let's just name this address the "red wallet".

Red Wallet:
This is the wallet where scammer sent money.
Balance:
BTC: 9 506.33

Transactions:
2011-01-07 01:01:26 - 100 BTC (in) ------> Receives money from his green wallet Oooppss... we have a link!
2011-01-07 01:01:26 - 100 BTC (out) ----> Sends money to ?
2011-01-07 02:49:29 - 3134.8 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-08 10:27:16 - 3174.6 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-09 10:47:30 - 3096.9 BTC (in) ---> From scammer

Green Wallet:
This address was used to receive money from mtgox. It first appeared a day before the 9000 btc transaction that came into the red wallet. This confirms the story so far.
Balance:
BTC: 4 692.64

Transactions:
2011-01-06 23:57:14 - 0.05 BTC (in) ----> The free money faucet probably
2011-01-07 00:55:03 - 100 BTC (in) -----> From mtgox I assume.
2011-01-07 01:01:26 - 100 BTC (out) ----> Test spend to the red wallet Oooppss... we have a link!
2011-01-07 01:20:01 - 120 BTC (in) -----> From mtgox?
2011-01-07 01:35:57 - 3057.6 BTC (in) ---> From mtgox?
2011-01-20 22:02:26 - 400 BTC (in) ------> From mtgox?
2011-01-22 11:25:47 - 1015 (in) --------> From mtgox?

Now that it's obvious and crystal clear how mtgox linked those account, the first question that comes to my mind is, why is the trade transactions with guy on IRC spread accross 3 different days? Did you not trade it all at once? And if not, you must have gone back to the IRC channel at least 2 times, correct?

If you had to go back to IRC twice after the first trade, how is it possible to not remember either:
1. Channel name
2. Your nick
3. Scammers nick

And why is there absolutely no browser history from 7th of January 2011 that you can use to refresh your lost memory?

It would be ridiculous to follow stolen money through the chain tens or even hundreds of transactions and then require an innocent person to pay up upon withdraw (exchanging out).

Now, according to mtgox this guy was most likely involved in theft directly. That's a big difference from receiving stolen money (unknowingly). It's the difference between guilty and innocent as far as I'm concerned. Now if mtgox infact decides to require innocent people to pay if they receive stolen money, then that doesn't mean you have to be subject to those rules. Everyone is free to launch their own exchange site, with all the risks that comes with that.

Ok, so let's get this straight.
1. Baron has some unknown amount of libertyreserve. Let's just call it "100$". Baron trades those 100$ libertyreserve for 100$ bitcoin with some random guy he just met in IRC.
2. Baron likes bitcoin, he wants more and decides to deposit 45 000$ worth of libertyreserve to mtgox.com.
4. On February 13th mtgox blocks Barons account and sends an e-mail asking for information regarding the bitcoin trade (1.).
5. Information is provided, nothing from mtgox.

Questions:
1. How is it possible that mtgox knows about your 100$ trade? (you don't know, but try to think)
2. Why is he interested in that trade and not where you managed to get 45 000$ worth of libertyreseve?

It would in my opinion make much more sense if this was the case:
1. Baron trades 45000$ something for 45000$ libertyreserve with some random guy on IRC.
2. Baron deposits 45000$ to mtgox.
3. It turns out the random guy on IRC had stolen those 45000$ somehow and mtgox is getting trouble with libertyreserve.

Just a little warning, moneybookers TOS doesn't allow exchanges. Many lost their account this way, and it's usually a lifetime ban... So if the moneybooker account is important to you, or unless you exchange with a really good friend, I advice against it.

Starts at approx 35 minutes:
Part 1: http://www.oneradionetwork2.com/mp3/health/forum/02.18.11_open_phones_patrick_timpone_one.mp3 (Interview with Bruce)
Part 2: http://www.oneradionetwork2.com/mp3/health/forum/02.18.11_open_phones_patrick_timpone_two.mp3