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That BFL page has so many things to take the piss out of it's unreal.
I did however find something honest. "However, we aren't shipping anytime soon. This is a Pre-Order product, so if you're uncomfortable waiting an indeterminate length of time for the final phase of development, do NOT pre-order this product."
Many previous customers will attest to the discomfort I'm sure.
Shame no-one can trust them, it's a great idea.
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Any theories out there on who is delivering so much hashpower to the cloud right now? Avalon? Bitfury, Both?
Well it's funny because; Butterfly Labs would really like you to think it's them, Bitsyncom really don't want you to think it's them, ...whilst Bitfury, and ASICminer remain silent.  We all know BitFury has tested and working chip since a month or so. What other technology is available now? Maybe theres another hidden player around? I know Bitfury is the real deal. I never doubted him, he's gone as far as proving the device and displaying a big 600gh/s rig, but you just don't know what else those chips have been made into. ASICminer have been itching to increase their hashrate and have needed the exponential rise to do so. Bitsyncom's chips left TSMC at the end of June, who knows where they are. Horserider apparently ordered some on the blackmarket and they've just arrived. That seller had been in possession selling Avalon chips for a month. You can buy them today, yet none of the group buys know when to expect their chips. There could be unknown private developers, about now could be a feasible time to expect them. We don't know. Butterfly Labs has claimed to be shipping a lot of Jalepenos, Little Singles and a few Minirigs... I haven't been to the BLF forum in a while because it's like watching someone strangle kittens, but weren't they also supposed to be shipping chips by now? They may be able to manage that as it doesn't take any Ompaloompas to assemble anything. I think that unknown private scenario might be reality one day. Only takes a rich greedy guy or group with the resources to see the money they could make short term compared to other investments and there's a load of those in China alone. Not producing to sell, but to set up a farm for their own benefit. |
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You guys forget, these guys have a modular design were we probably get 50% more hashing power thrown in the case to be safe... They are in fast mode and don't look like they are trying to maximize profits on design testing and guessing, just make profits on how fast they send us stuff above what we paided for... If we get 600Gh on a Jupiter I don't think they care they gave too much
How does that work? The design I saw had one module for the Mercury and 4 for a Jupiter. 100 G/hash each? Unless they built in some extra as recently mentioned and it wasn't such a surprise as we may think? |
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Do you guys think it is sound that kncminer should offer a option to buy miners for November delivery, at a discount. For them to offer that now instead of when October is sold out. I would like to buy a miner, but I dont want it to be so close to November that I was a few days off from a cheaper price. I rather have a firm delivery date, like early November, than Late October with a higher price.
They didn't offer November delivery. They said a Nov price drop. A firm delivery date. Good luck with that. Anywhere  I think all the Oct scheduled ones have a good chance to be early Nov...a 2 week delay is Usain Bolt performance in this business. |
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Sadly the biggest worry on shipment would be customs if anyone has been following the Avalon chip hostage crisis...
I would be driving to the customs office pronto on first hint of any delays
Feels so good to be in the EU right now and so close to Sweden. I would expect to have a 1 day delivery straight to my door Well that's exactly what I just had happen a few weeks ago. Unless the size makes a big difference. I lost a gold card and reader for Entropia and it took a day to replace by courier from Sweden. I'm never going to believe that all rigs will be hashing with an hour of completion however..especially the first ones. How many a day are they producing? Got to be 100 or more which will need to be transported (and packed and unpacked for that), be wired up and have miner and pool details sorted (accurately). Granted they won't just have one guy doing it ...but I doubt they have Ooompahloompahs either. "Here you go boys, the 1st batch of 100 is ready to set up, see you in an hour when the next batch is ready" lol |
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Shame you didn't ask how long to get it hashing if hosted. That's got to take some time, they arent hosted at the factory and need setting up when they get to the hosting facility. Hard to compare without knowing that.
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Seeing as there hasn't been any troll comments on this thread for almost an hour, I'll ask a question.
Anyone buying one of these thought about security? Like, what to do if their miner is stolen by some bum who breaks in and thinks it's a fancy desktop PC?
Any thoughts? Getting some kind of serial number engraved on the case? Marking the PCB somehow? Some kind of tracking that is it powers up, gps coordinates get send somewhere? I imagine high end industiral machinery must have something like this to protect the investment, but I don't really know.
Someone nicks mine in February, I do a little dance and call the insurance company. Then I'd have the cash to buy either a discounted replacement or something better if it exists. I already asked my company (Morethan) and they just said to do like I already do with other "attractive items" worth ove a grand and declare it to them. IF I didn't, it wouldn't be covered. Probably different to other companies so worth a phone call. A simple laptop security cable and lock (maybe modified) will do to stop most thieves, they want to get in and out ASAP and won't want to mess about. I use one on my bike and it's worked twice now that I know of. You could also whack a Butterfly Labs sticker on it, then no-one would want it |
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It is better that you get out of the bitcoin game while you are ahead, I seen too many good bitcoin peeps go to prison or washed up or burnt out because they went against the big centralize banking business. You are a smart man. Just live a normal life. It is dangerous out here.
WTF are you talking about? There are only two ways out of the bitcoin business: 1) The big centralize banking governors go after you and everything you own, and you end up in jail or dead. 2) you get out while ahead Too many people end up in prison and dead or washed up and burnt out on the streets. If you get out early while ahead, then you are ahead. Who do you think you are dealing with when you deal with bitcoin? It ain't all friendly and everyone giving out here. This is real life muh niggah. Yes I have Banking VP's that have been sitting out in front of my home in unmarked cars "watching" me for weeks..  Bank Vp's don't wear white coats. |
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Cooling case material and appearance aside. Here is the real issue. These were supposed to be professional mining machines. I have yet to see a 4U machine with an external power supply. Further, in an average cabinet, where would you put said external power supply and be able to close the door? Do we just have to eat rackspace and deal with cable management for 3cm bundles per machine? Seems like a nightmare. I have to be honest, I've got a fairly sizable order with them and at this point I'm debating asking for a refund and/or selling them. Their product is starting to look more and more like the cobbled stacks of FPGA boards on stand-offs with fans zip tied to them and USB hubs taped everywhere, not that they're doing this, but it has the design and foresight of.
-1 KnC Miner.
Nowhere do they say they are professional machines. Find it, show me. In fact, WTF is a professional machine? The definition taken literally would make all rigs fall into that category since all they do is work for money. The design graphic showed their basic design, they always said (sensibly) that they were aiming to get these online in our hands ASAP and not doing a BFL and faffing about with pissy details,getting them wrong and making cool looking bricks that will be delivered too late to break even. I love that case, quick to manufacture, no complicated tooling up, less to go wrong, does it's job, cheap, what more do you need? External generic power supply, no problems with international safety and electrical standards and no import problems...and no writing CE in felt tip pen on PSUs and getting the whole rig stuck at customs ...again like a certain other company. Time is of the essence now for them and for us. We all know that surely? I want a working rig in my hand ASAP, one that will not break. It can be 5 feet square or in the shape of a dalek for all I care...I'll adapt to it. I knew people would complain if they showed us anything. You can't please all the people all of the time, so they are aiming at most of the people who read their initial aims, thought them good and purchased..and doing OK I think. |
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...
if you never worked in a datacenter, then you should be asking questions, not spreading FUD
What does working in a datacenter have to do with spotting gear that's obviously not designed for racks? Why does any of this matter I'm wondering? They are coming to us with no PS, and we know why. That won't change. They obviously weren't aiming for farms as they said from the get-go that they were going for limited customers that they could support and those customers getting a decent return. They have done everything they can to make them noob friendly where a company aimed at businesses wouldn't need to. The bit about selling to businesses when you buy one is bollocks and wouldn't stand up in any court..and is a bit confusing given the rest of their aims. What I'd do if I had a facility to host mine would be to ask them how they are doing it...we all know they are hosting them in large numbers, so they will have this sorted already. It may help anyone planning to do the same? |
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Noob question here but knc said there would be an RJ45 connector on the case to presumable connect directly to your router. I assumed the machine would connect directly to a computer (which is connected wirelessly to a router in my case) via usb where you would then set up cgminer to connect to whatever pool you were on.
Can someone explain exactly how these new fangled Asic machines are set up?
Go back a few pages and read their updates on their site. This is all answered. They are standalone linux boxes and when you order they have a form so you can pop in your pool details so it's ready to run the day you get it...all set up. All you need is a power supply. In short they set them up for you if you give them the info they need. |
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Clicked to see a working miner, got a simple case instead.... You got what they have, what people have asked for, anything they can show us. This is why if it were me I'd have ignored the constant pestering...because everything shown won't be real or good enough for the armchair engineers, and criticised no-matter what. They just can't win. |
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Assuming that the first month to 6 weeks will return the best results whenever these rigs are delivered, an option might be to bang yours on Ebay after that period with a reasonable reserve and see if you can do better than it would mining? Maybe fund your gen2 machine a little while it's worth something. I've seen people pay stupid money for machines not half as good as these and not even in hand. You never know, and if no-one bites no harm done.
We could all look at it like that versus this right? (its all still speculation) USD 15040 total dollars returned from mining in October with Jupiter = 7200 price and shipping for jupiter + it makes money until July 2014 which is roughly 7840 dollars of profit at that! therefore ( http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/b4f90fa51a) if you buy it for the sake of the argument at 100 dollars an throw in a fee we could say 71.92 BTC for that same $7200. So 15040 USD/71.92 BTC that could have been held instead of mining..the bitcoin cost per USD only needs to be 209.12. Lets say that you buy in right now instead around 111 USD each. You only need the price to hit 231.88 to see the same profit you WOULD HAVE if you bought a KNC Jupiter - clearly if you plan to gamble some money...gambling says to ask if BTC price plans to be around 220 ish dollars between now and July of Next year. If you think If will not...then you will gain more from buying Miners and mining BTC along with other alts as they have the chance to appreciate later in the future and less people are willing to invest time or fiat into it which would influence the cost. If you think it could reach this price or higher before July of 2014 then I'd say to Buy the btc and sell it at or near that price after trading fees are calculated (both on the Buy and Sell side). It would have the potential to either appreciate higher or you could sell it again then rebuy it. I don't see BTC going into a super high demand over even fiat unless its accepted mainstream a LOT more - like earn btc and pay your cell phone bill, cable bill, car insurance bill DIRECT with btc, no exhange to fiat involved. I'd feel like the sweetspot to sell should be week 3 in June 2014 if and only if there isnt a flooded 2ndary market already. (ebay amazon craigslist bitmit.net) To complicate things, around March Gen2 is scheduled. Get the new stuff ASAP and get RID of the older stuff ASAP would likely be the more lucrative plan? Why have dollars tied up making almost nothing when the latest rigs can pump out BTC more economically and make you more? I wonder if www.bitcoinminerpsychotherapist.com is taken? |
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Assuming that the first month to 6 weeks will return the best results whenever these rigs are delivered, an option might be to bang yours on Ebay after that period with a reasonable reserve and see if you can do better than it would mining? Maybe fund your gen2 machine a little while it's worth something. I've seen people pay stupid money for machines not half as good as these and not even in hand. You never know, and if no-one bites no harm done.
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My comprehension of the posts is this. The thought is that for KNC to ship in September, you know less than 30 days, they should have a prototype of pcbs, case, anything at least like bitfury does with thier boards.
way back when, when KNC was explaining themselves, they mentioned that they were surprised no one else did what they are doing now... that is the main reason they have been pretty quite - and after plenty of researching, I ended up trusting them. If you don't have that level of trust, no proof besides shipping is going to convince anyone anyway. I hedged my bet with 0% interest credit cards.. and I actually get 1% cash back so I am up $150 at this point do whatever you need to sleep at night, but these guys have their gameplan and they are sticking to it. If they fail, we'll know in a month I agree, what they said seemed different from others, more of a solid plan from start to finish and with all aspects they had control over covered well. We knew the risks, we even knew that it was possible that they may run into a problem to delay delivery...or we didn't understand that can happen with any product. Tough for us that this game has the sudden urgency built into it around now. I think that anyone looking for a fast profit needs to forget mining for a while and trade BTC , anyone who likes to mine for a hobbyist thrill should look into other coins, and those who don't want a gamble should just buy them and not risk not making ROI with a rig. There are so many options there's really one for everyone and no need to whine and pick at the decisions of others. As for Bitcoinorama, his time and effort to give some 1st hand impressions were invaluable to me, helped me make a decision. How that turns out is my problem (and outside anyone's control most likely) not his. I'm grateful for the effort either way. We're all in now. GL all |
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currently difficulty is at 37. and is estimated to jump to 50. which is ~%35 increase so, if this trend continues, we are talking ~%100 increase per month http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/that is why I decided not to buy knc Jupiter at the moment, even if it is delivered in October as promised I still would not make ROI.  if there is a flaw in this logic please point it out I really want to get Jupiter. You're assuming that the exchange rate of BTC will stay the same. Let's say the exchange rate goes to $200 USD / BTC or even higher, those coins you mine are suddenly much more valuable and can affect your ROI, though it may take a lot longer for you to see that. I stopped mining back in 2010/2011 because they were only worth like $2 and it was costing more in electricity than it was worth. Had I kept mining, that investment would have more than paid off. If you are in this for the long term, then the investment could still pay handsomely. I, personally, expect the price to rise because it will take more and more computing power to generate the same coins, pushing out the small guys and leaving only big investors with the hardware to mine, plus you have the deflationary pressures as people hoard coins. Right but that theory supports getting a refund and just buying coins with the money. where is the fun in that? The fun is the holiday you go on with the money you didn't throw away As for the Jupiter being more powerful and nothing being said about the others...I'd assume as they are modular they gave us credit to be able to work out that will scale down the range? Coin value is key as was just said..if you're in it for a quick profit from mining now then you're not going to do well. Which is why all this talk of mining being a business is a bit silly IMO, it's a gamble at worst and a long term investment at best. Unless you can write a 3 or 5 year business plan that makes sense, or possibly take advantage of things like claiming VAT and tax back on hardware and other expenses...which would be sensible for some high rollers You'd have to wonder how the tax man would look on a business mainly involving mining BTC. |
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Potential customer come to the thread with legit questions and what follows is bashing and off-topic posts a la BFL. Few participants here are completely deluded, desperate trying to hide the facts with a torrent of unrelated words and photos.
This is a behaviour quite usual in people participating in fraudulent pyramid schemes, where the people near at the top try every trick in the book to inspire a false sense of confidence. As they profit rely on keep the true nature of the scheme away from the inquiring mouths, they bash and disrupt any question which could reveal what the scheme is really about.
I hope, for the sake of the potential customers and investors, that KnC is really going to deliver all their orders as promised. However, their lack of a PR person working in this forum shows that something is not right on track. No business can be completely successful and trustworthiness without the good work of PR person.
You ARE aware that we bought from KnC with no promise of reward for attracting customers? That is how pyramid schemes work..enticing new members with rewards based on new money they bring in. Granted, KnC very receently offered a reward via the new referal scheme, which is pretty standard 10% for a pretty large amount of referals...but few will manage to make anything from it. I hope that one day a company you describe as "fraudulent" with absolutely no proof drags your arse to court and teaches you how bad an idea that is. Innocent until proven guilty will be on their side there, quite rightly. |
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Oh, I wouldn't call KnC a "matured company" either. I wouldn't call any company producing ASIC rigs mature at this point. That's half the problem...no track record.
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Last line of the newsletter "For people wishing to take advantage of our current upgrade process you have one more week left, as of next Friday this option will no longer be available to any customers." https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-27Now, what was that you were saying about BS? lol nice one. i will add new point to the list for me very strange for matured company is to - introduce product (some sketches) - grab money is short time - make impression that if you dont invest now you will be screwed - create double line of preorders (paid/not paid) and make second market of user accounts - introduce lottery - organize meeting showing nothing - get more money by offering hosting - introduce upgrade offer to grab little more - create referall program to attract more customers - introduce new pricing to hold competition sales - month from deliver deadline show no evidence that product will be ready on time (no pictures of cases, working pcb, hashing chip etc) - make impression that miners are almost ready by introducing final upgrade deadline to squeeze a little moremaybe later - outsource almost everything - tell that it is not our fault OK. Simple question here. I have an order, did as much research as possible, then took what seemed to be the best option. I now realise that the die is cast. Nothing has changed and I wasn't expecting a daily diary like the BFL one, they were always 2 weeks away and had lovely pictures of the cases (which turned out in some cases not to be the actual case). You list all these possible reasons not to order and take the risk, and you haven't ordered. Given those reasons that's understandable. So my question is this, why repeat them to people who obviously don't see it your way, and don't agree with them ? All ASIC rig manufacturers will have several of those points against them, so you'll never be comfortable investing will you? Are you going to haunt every thread about those rigs saying the same things too? For myself, I knew the risks, I accepted them. Anything I didn't spot is good to know, all knowledge is welcome IMO. Someone else's pessimism repeated ad nauseum isn't helpful or interesting. |
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And if you've got 100K on the line, like I do, you might try giving Andreas a call weekly, like I do, to see where things are. He LIKES to hear from customers.
They also recently advertised for support staff didn't they? To handle such calls I imagine? They explained the price drop in the latest email update. They didn't need to explain to me that the same reason is behind the need to sell any remaining stock before it becomes worthless to buyers, hashrate wasn't such a big problem for BFL, when they kicked off (although the way they have gone it will be for some unlucky customers a year later). BFL did no favours for anyone else in this business, especially where pre-ordered machines are involved. This doesn't mean all other companies are scams. I don't think BFL was a scam, just woefully bad at their business and customer interaction. KnC have so far avoided all the bad stuff BFL did or didn't do. Something may go wrong, They may deliver late, and that might cost us. We all realised that when we took this gamble, but it has become more important that the rigs get to work ASAP in the recent couple of months. We knew it could happen and KnC have reacted to this increased hashrate with lower prices to help late comers get ROI. They are trying. They are communicating, when there is something to say. They have no record of letting anyone down or being dishonest. Fair to voice concerns, unfair to accuse them of misleading anyone without proof. They have stated that we may get more than we expected too, that would make them saints in comparison to other companies. I believe there is some stuff that women use to remove makeup that's also pretty good for getting egg off faces..there may be a boost in sales of that in October too. |
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