This private equity type deal was bound to come sooner or later. I have money invested in several funds as part of a pension fund, some low risk, others high...trees for example. A 15% return over a year is a result for them. If they see bitcoins as something that they can get into now which will increase in value over 5 years (As I bet most of us think), they'll see it as a high risk high reward investment. 200 mill isn't a lot of money for these people, they aren't sitting in a bedroom hoping for ROI and worrying about power bills, they must see a massive return over a long time compared to other places they invest. For example, if they plant a tree to harvest the wood...that money is tied up until the tree is worth harvesting years down the road for lumber, unlike bitcoins which given the right hardware break even in a few months. Once they have their BTC they sit on them and happily wait for a price rise. There are other options with the mining gear once BTC become uneconomical to mine. If you think BTC may one day hit 1000 dollars..uneconomical now may be acceptable investment for the future returns.

Personally I think that there's a short window now where we can mine using our own gear, then it will become unaffordable and we'll be buying  shares in companies that can do it to scale...some of whom may be companies like these.

I saw a rig linked from an ad on here last week, could be upgraded to cost half a million and some loony hashrate...just for a minute assuming it's a real rig that will exist and be able to pay for itself like a KnC rig hopefully will...why would a company who can afford 10 or those not buy them? What other traditional investment can do that? It must have some speculators in high risk markets licking their lips compared to the long term stuff they usually deal in...and IF they see the value of a bitcoin hitting 4 figures in years to come like many people do...well we're going to see them arriving in droves.

IF that's the case, we're not going to see a dribble of rins with higher and higher hashpower..we're going to see hundreds of farms of these rigs arriving as soon as they are available pushing the network hashrate sky high. The manufacturers, they'll love it, no whiny forums to keep an eye on, no delivery, no currency issues, just one large customer you need to deal with. A customer who may not care about ROI short term because they are looking for a very long term return based on a huge rise in coin prices.

Shipping in Sept pretty much means that, unless they did a deal with Harry Potter, or their production facility also makes "Earl Grey, hot".

None of this matters now. There are 3 options. None of which we can influence:-
1) They are correct in what they say and deliver as they say.
2) They hit a snag and are a few weeks late...and take all the flak that BFL built up over a year for that one thing.
3) Total fail. Anything from being complete incompetents to a year of delays meaning that the machines aren't worth owning.

We are all in one of 3 positions now:-
You made a decision, you bought.
You're thinking about it still.
You made a decision, you didn't.

3 options for the above:--

1) Wait. Nothing is proven to be wrong yet. You have no reason to think they won't deliver.
2) Wait. See what happens and maybe jump on the next gen rather than be last in line and suffer from the massive hash power increase.
3) STFU and go wait for your BFL kit to arrive so you can auction it on Antiques Roadshow or  masturbate or something other than attempt to piss others off who made an informed decision knowing the risks.

Your BFL rig will be delivered in 2 weeks.
Seriously though, I'd say there's much better chance of anything from Sweden than BFL this year, and if it's next year ...it's going to be too late for any meaningful returns.

If I didn't have an order now, I'd be waiting for their next gen promised in early next year for a better chance of ROI.
Anything delivered after Nov is going to struggle to be worthwhile most likely. According to this calculator anyway http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ , it may not be right but it's a decent comparison tool IMO. BFL rigs make depressing reading on there if they aren't already hashing.

That's The Devil, he came to collect on that soul deal because they hadn't delivered as promised.

Go on then, I have to ask. How do they immediately get them up and running? There is no way that can happen.
For example, mine will be sent next day delivery (what I paid for anyway) ...so unless they're hosting them at the factory they should get onsite about the same time, or later if they are efficient and send batches.
When mine arrives onsite it will be unboxed and I'll not stop until it]s hashing...there won't be 400 other machines sitting there awaiting my attention which is exactly what's going to happen at the other end with hosted machines. I won't go home for tea at 5pm and sort the rest out the next day either. Unless they have a hell of a lot of staff working 23/7 a lot of rigs will sit around a while waiting to be set up. IT's 1/1 human to rig when mine comes. When stuff breaks and no customer's there it rarely gets immediate attention in my experience, although it's going to be much easier and faster to get it back up hosted than offsite for sure.

Hosting is expensive, these machines will be old in 6 months...maybe not even earning their power bill. You have to consider what you'll do then. Assuming you probably have a next gen if all goes to KnC plan. Continue to pay hosting (for both)? Have it sent to you? Neither great options when it's not producing much. Scrap it? Ebay it? Set it to another task? Maybe another currency?

Nothing is as straightforward as it would appear. Always we need to make a best guess.

Why not? They all return at the same ratio. The day a Jupiter breaks even they all will assuming all other factors are the same.

I was wondering the other way round. Is it worth buying larger machines?
You buy a Jupiter, one day it develops a fault..you have no miner.
You buy the same hash power split between 2 miners and you have a backup if one breaks...at minimal cost.

Thanks. I missed that in the fight

Sorry to interrupt the fight but one thing I consider important is details on power supply required so that upon delivery we can all have one ready to go.
Time is going to be crucial especially in the first month with diff increases etc. , you don't want to lose time hashing waiting for an item like that do you?
Personally I'd like to be shopping for mine now and be sure it's the right one.

Thought you said you were going away? Missed your deadline dude. Tut tut.

Excellent news, thanks for the update

In the U.K. you do, up here it's blazing

You need to wind  your neck in dude. You seriously think that you can say that a company may be fraudulent like that without risking legal action?
There's a big difference between an opinion on their ability to deliver on time and spreading rumours that they be fraudulently doing business.
There is no evidence that Apple will produce the new cheaper iPhone (5C), but no-one's calling them frauds. Wisely.

Best thing you can do is go away if you're not buying or thinking of buying a KnC rig. We've seen all you have to say. It's getting old.

The units are modular, so with the possible exception of Jupiters they would just need to add more modules.
One reason I went with them in the first place, good logical design.
I was hoping that maybe the modules themselves may be easily swappable to upgrade on site in the future...adding or replacing a module in future would be a very useful thing for us to be able to do and a big time and cost saver all round wouldn't it?

There is no VAT outside of the EU. There's a calculator for duty linked a few pages back by me if that worries you and others have researched that too..I think the U.S. does better than we do on that front.

No.
No month after month.
No "In two weeks" as BFL did.
A firm delivery date. Which they haven't missed yet. Unlike BFL who have been saying "in two weeks" and nothing much else for a YEAR...to the effect that most of their hardware will be useless if and when it arrives and if it doesn't fry almost straight away or have a fake CE mark that gets it impounded by EU countries customs...etc. etc. BLF's performance is similar to a ponzi in as far as the main reason people ponzis work is that the early victims can't bring themselves to admit it and allow others to fall into the trap hoping it will all be roses in the end.

KnC have invited scrutiny in person already, people have been there and asked questions which were answered. In October buyers will be getting their machines, or they will have failed. IF they do, they'll have a chance to break even, BFL gear never will if they don't have it now. If it had arrivd when promised it would have been a different story, the story that buyers were told and trusted would happen. They have been let  down so very badly by a bunch of rank amateurs.

Anyone supporting BFL after what they've done is a sandwich short of a picnic.

Good thinking. You can also use various govt. schemes like Green Deal to pay some or all of the upfront cost.
Long term that looks quite good if you can manage enough wind to make it work where you live.

In the UK we can instal solar panels and get paid for feeding it into the grid. Which essentially means it's a reduction on your bill.
No batteries, just a rate per unit fed into the grid. IF this payment could pay the cost of mining and over time pay for your panels ...that would work ?

If you search moneysavingexpert.com for this subject you'll find some pretty detailed figures and stats on this from members in the forum who are well into solar and have been for some time.

Directly powering a rig using solar may not work, but indirectly by using solar to offset what you would have paid to heat water for example...that could help? Saving the amount it costs to run your rig elsewhere is the same thing at the end of the day isn't it ?

This tool was posted elsewhere and might be helpful, although the hashrate increases are high they may be correct...hope not.
The thing that it shows up well if the vast difference between the earning of any miner based on a relatively short delay...say Oct to Nov.
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

Set it to start in December and you'll see that buying coins will serve you better for ALL hardware listed there barring a large increase in price of BTC.

I have an order with KnC ...but it seems to me that their next gen will always be needed ASAP to stay ahead so it's going to be a constant upgrade which may not prove to be worthwhile in the near future. Why risk so much money when all you're going to get is less BTC than you could have if you simply bought them ?

If I were you now I'd wait for the next gen.
You'll know by then if they are reliable.
You have a chance of an early order and delivery on a gen 2 in March.
You may spend the same money for a competitive machine capable of ROI , which you may not if you catch the tail end of deliveries now.
Something better, stronger, faster may come along from someone else.

If my KnC machine gets here as promised and that tool is correct, I'll have broken even just in time for gen 2. However, that depends on hashrate, price of BTC, and it coming on time. IF I'd kept my money none of that would matter.

I think you missed something rather important there.
They managed to build themselves a bank of rigs (Which they have been mining with for some time unless they are fools), with your money to fund it and to use against you both by raising the hash rate and as a source of funding if they need to defend themselves. 
You however, if you haven't got your box by october won't be likely to see it break even is this is anywhere near correct. :-

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

I hope it isn't, for obvious reasons, but it demonstrates how their delays and lack of deliveries has cost their customers.
So sad to see loyalty abused the way they have.

Any hardware delivered after October isn't going to break even in a year according to that.
Depressing tool if it's anywhere near accurate.

It might be nice to have BTC mined on there somewhere ?

Maybe in the near future the variety of competitors will begin to work in our favour and produce some price competition.