First shops giving up and kick Cuban products as too much turnover is done with PayPal...:-( But http://www.rumundco.de/ is willing to take the fight!! |
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One simple question:
Why would I want to use bitcoins, when the current banking system ("double spending" through fractional reserve banking; creating money by accepting securities) seems to be not so bad? Obviously there are allways good economic reasons.
Is is only the anonymity and the decentralization?
Considering the previous post the bitcoin system does lack of the possibility to offer credits higher than the deposits as one cannot create money to give away even more credits, which the economy might need! --> slower growth??!
Are you kidding? The present system is terrible. It allows the people who control the money supply to create new money and give it to themselves. This is one of the problems that bitcoin solves by limiting the supply to 21 million. Read all of my posts in this thread and read my article: http://astrohacker.com/ahc/central-banks-are-the-scam-not-bitcoin/However, in practice this is not why most people will use bitcoin, since most people don't understand how screwed they are by this system. Instead, they will use bitcoin because there will be many services that only accept bitcoin, because those services will only be possible or practical with bitcoin. An example of this is anything that charges very small fees over the internet, which will work with bitcoin, because the fees are low, but not dollars or other fiat currencies, because the fees are too high. Banks can use saver's money to give away as credits, but they can also create it: Banks can create money by accepting mortgage and granting credits at the amount of the mortgage value. Later the credit receiver pays back the money. This is not possible with bitcoins, but what is the problem anyway? Why is this bad? |
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One simple question:
Why would I want to use bitcoins, when the current banking system ("double spending" through fractional reserve banking; creating money by accepting securities) seems to be not so bad? Obviously there are allways good economic reasons.
Is is only the anonymity and the decentralization?
Considering the previous post the bitcoin system does lack of the possibility to offer credits higher than the deposits as one cannot create money to give away even more credits, which the economy might need! --> slower growth??!
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Perhaps that's what he meant. However, I believe this economic analysis is incorrect. You're saying that by keeping the money in the bank, and having the bank loan it out, that this was good for the economy. There was some positive contribution of wealth that would not have happened without loaning that money out. I believe this is wrong because the total quantity of money is irrelevant. You're not going to improve things by adding money into the system (and I'm well aware that Ben Bernanke disagrees, but he's wrong). So long as the money is sufficiently divisible, the sum total of it is an irrelevant quantity. I agree with that. However, see my post above. If you don't loan your money out and someone else does, you will turn 100 bitcoins into 100 bitcoins while someone else turns 100 bitcoins into 108 bitcoins. In practice, inflating a money supply does not increase the wealth. It merely redistributes the purchasing power of the money to the people who get the new money. It is a way of taking wealth from everyone who uses the money and giving it to the people who get the new money. It's equivalent to counterfeiting. For some reason, everyone understands that when a non-banker counterfeits a dollar, it is wrong. But when bankers do it, they think it is right and good, when in fact it is equally as bad. You are entirely correct in the case of, say, a government printing money. However, this is not correct in the case of loans. The people who get the money pay it back with interest. They get purchasing power today (presumably when they need it more) in exchange for foregoing purchasing power in the future when they expect to need it less. If people are willing to pay interest, it will typically be because they can make better use of the purchasing power today. Loans help people to efficiently time-shift consumption and production in cases where the most efficient pattern isn't produce-consume. The obvious example is the guy who gets a job that pays 20% more than he's making, but he needs a car. He can't produce the value he needs to consume in the form of a car without the job. A loan allows how to consume the car now when he needs it, and produce the value of the car later when he will most likely be able to. Certainly banks do some bad things and certainly people take bad loans. But the fundamental logic of banking and loans is completely sound. There is nothing sound about fractional reserve banking. It is a giant scam, and probably the biggest mistake in the history of the legal system. It should be illegal. Or better, unregulated, so the market can force banks to keep high reserves. Here's how banks counterfeit money. You deposit $100. The bank loans out $80 of your money to someone else. They put that money back in the bank. The bank now has $100 - all your money. But your checking account says $100, and the loanee's checking account says $80, for a total of $180. The bank has now effectively created--that is, counterfeited--$80 in new money. They gave this new money to themselves, and then loaned it out. Since their reserves are still over 20% (or whatever the present reserve requirement is), they keep doing this until they have stolen control over 80% of the money. Banks declare themselves owner of most of the money, and charge a toll (interest) for using it. They are not providing a valuable service. They are trolls executing a giant scam that rips off everyone. In response to your other points, I defer to cypherdoc. If you expect to get interest from your bank, how should they pay you off, if they didn't lend it for interest? How else could one get a credit? The interesting part in the fractional reserve banking is that with a reserve of 20% one bank after another can lend in total 4 times the inital money! 1. bank: $100 = $80 credit + $20 reserve 2. bank: $80 = $64 credit + 16 $reserve 3. bank: $64 = $51,2 credit + 12,8 $reserve ... The Summ of money held as reserve by all banks equals the inital cash deposit, while 4 times that money is spend as credits. |
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But where does the money to pay the interst come from? From the opportunity value. Ten dollars today is worth more than ten dollars tomorrow because everything you can do with ten dollars tomorrow you can do with ten dollars today plus you can spend it before tomorrow. When you loan money, you transfer the money from someone who has no way to extract the opportunity value to someone who can and they split the surplus. In the end it is all about the time someone spends in earning the same amount of money someone else earnes.
One could ask how fair is it to have one person working 10 h a day, while an other one needs 8 h only to earn the same amount of money? But that is another question. You could also ask why it would be fair that one person produces more value than another and gets the same pay. I am getting to the sens and the right to charge interest. So to work out the interest someone has to pay he works more hours a day. No, not at all. Say you work as a laborer. Your work sucks, it's hard work in the hot Sun. You get offered a job as a pizza delivery driver. You have air conditioning, you get paid more. But you don't have a car and you need one to work as a driver. You could spend the next few months living on even less to save up enough money to buy a car, but that makes no sense. Instead, you borrow the money to buy the car. You pay the interest out of the value of the car which enables you to get a better job. But the big problem is the money creation; fractional reserve banking!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_bankingWhich means credit users have to work more hours a day to pay the interest on money, that does not even exist!! Also the paid interest receive the banks, not the peoble putting money on their bank account! No, it doesn't mean they have to work more hours a day to pay the interest on money unless they take unwise loans. If, for example, you borrow money that allows you to get a better job, you may work fewer hours. Don't blame wasteful consumption on bankers. Nice points, I am totally with you!! But I am not fine with the fractional reserve banking yet. Isn't it nonsence to pay interest on money that does not really exist? Or creating money in general? There would be not enough money in the world to pay back all debt plus interest! |
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And again a downside of interest: the poor pay the rich!!
i don't see how you can call that a downside unless you are at the same time claiming to be poor. Poor man: That's a downside! Rich man: That's an upside! seems quite neutral to me. I don't exactly know what you mean?! What I am saying: the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. The poor pay the interest the rich receive... |
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I like your points JoelKatz and qwk, now I just see a problem in the thematic of charging interest, which is quite a twist...:-/ Generally it is an economic and reasonable method for me to participate in growth (opportunity savings) when my bank offers credits for people or businesses willing to pay back interest. But where does the money to pay the interst come from? In the end it is all about the time someone spends in earning the same amount of money someone else earnes. One could ask how fair is it to have one person working 10 h a day, while an other one needs 8 h only to earn the same amount of money? But that is another question... So far this is how it works and i think it is a good way, as probably one had to do some effort to achieve that balance. I am getting to the sens and the right to charge interest. So to work out the interest someone has to pay he works more hours a day. But the big problem is the money creation; fractional reserve banking!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_bankingWhich means credit users have to work more hours a day to pay the interest on money, that does not even exist!! Also the paid interest receive the banks, not the peoble putting money on their bank account! So here I see the potenial in a fair currency in bitcoins.But, well, on the other side, without that created money we would not have been able to grow that fast in the past years... And again a downside of interest: the poor pay the rich!! Only rich people can gain opportunity savings, as to receive at least 2% you need to have quite an amount of money these says;) And how needs that money? The poor people ask for credits and therefore pay the interest to the rich. Also companies goning in debt do their costcalculation inlcuding the interest they have to pay back. So in the end everyone buying that companies products also pays his interest debt. |
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Guys,
you can still express your trust in bitcoins by voting on facebook;)
Go for it, spread the world:-p
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nice, didn't know that one;)
Now I am asking myself how sensitive the gpg private key is.
The process is to unlock the private key with my personal password. This private key then decrypts the file, thas was encrypted with my public key.
How hard is it do derive my personal password from the private key compared to hacking a symmetric gpg key?
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Hi,
I found this discussion very interesting as I asked the question myself.
Maybe anyone has already mentioned it, but how do you protect /tmp files or what so ever?
You need to decrypt your wallet to the .bitcoin directory, or any other place where the blockchain is.
After that you encrypt your wallet again and delete the unencrypted wallet.
Do you use an eraser tool for that? Otherwise it would not be safe enough for me;)
For me I figured out to use a truecrypt container holding my .bitcoin directory.
To backup the wallet only I use pgp and ssh (rsnapshot) to put it on a remote computer.
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bin leider 10 zu spät...  bis gleich |
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Hey everybody, there are news in Germany that might interest you concerning PayPal: A German shop for alcohol and cigarettes, also selling Cuban products like rum and cigars, has been requested by PayPal to NOT sell Cuban products in Germany anymore due to the USA-Cuba-embargo from 1962. The shop's reaction: they kicked PayPal  http://www.golem.de/1107/85243.htmlNow, EBay as PayPal's parent company, also closes EBay-Shops selling Cuban products. These 20 shops now intend to prepare an accusation against PayPal and EBay. http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article13513283/Ebay-setzt-Kuba-Embargo-auch-in-Deutschland-durch.htmlThis might be good news for bitcoins I think!! On the first shop's facebook site I have placed a recommendation to accept bitcoins: https://www.facebook.com/rumundcoIt is German, but you will find the linked bitcoin video;) Please vote or leave a comment. Wish us good luck to get this into press:) |
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Wie wäre es wenn wir uns nebenbei GnuPG-authentifizieren würden?
Bis später
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Hi Forp,
freut mich riesig, dass du das noch organisieren konntest.
Wie ist denn in der neuen location die Raumkapazität?
Ich würde gerne teilnehmen. Muss man sich irgendwo registrieren? Wie werden die Kosten aufgetreilt? Musst ja nicht alles alleine tragen...:-/
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darüber habe ich nachgedacht:D
Nächste Woche wollen sie sich näher mit BTCs beschäftigen - so die Antwort.
Wenn sich bis dahin mehr entwickelt hat, hier oder auf facebook, dann werde ich mal eine nette EMail verfassen:)
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Nun gut, magst ja recht haben.
Dennoch finde ich es eine gute Gelegenheit, auf der facebook Seite auf uns aufmerksam zu machen. Wer weiß, wer das alles ließt und thematisch passt es doch super.
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@Seeder
Ich finde deinen Einwand gar nicht so schlecht. Aber anonyme Zahlung ist auch anders möglich: PaySafe oder Ukash!
Und da Rum & Co gerade etwas Aufsehen erregt, sollten wir uns das irgendwie zu nutze machen.
Wenn der Händler vorher weiß, dass er Einnahmen erziehlen wird, nur weil er BTCs akzeptiert, dann sinkt doch sicherlich die Hemmschwelle es einfach zu versuchen...
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