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181  Other / Off-topic / Re: Mini-Rig from Butterflylabs on: March 26, 2012, 06:23:37 PM
Is there any information how the mini rig or the rig bix will look like? I am wondering what will be their phisical dimension, are they going to be expandable, etc.

I wonder that myself.  I wonder how large it will need to be not because the FPGA take up a lot of space but due to the fact that 2.5KW is a lot of energy and the smaller the pkg the harder it is to cool.  

A visual excercise:
A 4x5970 rig is ~1KW.  Open framed it requires good amount of airflow to cool.   In a closed case, forget about it. Smiley  Now 1.25KW would be 20% more thermal load so image a hypothetical 5x5970 rig (pretend no 8 GPU limit). The "full rig box" (if it ends up getting built) would be double that.   To get an idea of the thermal energy vs volume visualize a 4U server chassis w/ 5x5970s inside now stack two of them on top of each other to simulate 2.5KW of power draw.  That is a pretty big box (8U = 14" by 19" by 24").  Could you cool that with air?
 How noisy would it be?  We already have a pretty large "rigbox".  Going larger would make it somewhat easier to cool.

Before I get flamed:
I am not saying the rigbox isn't more efficient.  It is.  The same sized box with the same amount of electricity/heat would produce 50 GH/s vs ~7 GH/s (10x 5970s). Still the laws of thermodynamics don't care what (or how much) the 2.5KW produced.  50GH/s on 2.5KW or 7GH/s on 2.5KW is still 2.5KW either way.  

That is an interesting challenge.  In mining the difficulty in cooling 1KW+ heat loads is what has lead to open frame rigs, extenders, extra high rpm fans, etc.  Will be interesting to see how they intend to cool them and how noisy they will be.  Not saying high potential noise is a problem (it isn't as most will be in datacenters or semi-industrial locations).  It just may shock some people who think of FPGA as silent and cool but that is just because nobody has scaled FPGA up to tens of GH/s in a compact space yet.

So BFL come on at least give us some estimated dimensions and db specs. Smiley

I wish I could give you some info, but at this point please let us have our final unit in front of us before
giving out details. Regarding the dB, it will be virtually silent when compared to GPUs... In fact, it is
engineered that way...


Good Luck,
182  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Question regarding Hardware subforum on: March 25, 2012, 10:19:46 AM
I was wondering, since now there is an FPGA subforum in this section, why not create
a GPU and CPU subforums as well? All mining systems except GPU have been moved to
FPGA subforum, while the GPUs still remain in Hardware section...


All the best,
183  Other / Off-topic / Re: Mini-Rig from Butterflylabs on: March 24, 2012, 06:54:43 PM
As someone who was an outspoken (and loud) critic of BFL I am convinced they aren't a "scam".  They masively overestimated their specs and timelines.  They also seem ill equipped to handle the non-tech portions of the demand they are facing.

IMHO the only real risks dealing w/ BFL are:
a) time risk.  800 MH/s miner earns ~15 BTC per month.  4 month delay = 60 BTC in lost revenue.
b) warranty risk.  If new orders take 12-16 weeks then how long will RMA take.
c) solvency risk. If company had a huge financial setback (say 1000 singles died under warranty) could they absorb that and continue to operate

basically the risks are the same as dealing with any small business where demand way outstrips productive capacity.  It would be smart for BFL to hire an business student (for next to nothing) to handle non-tech tasks like emails, order processing, releasing company statements, etc.

Psst BFL there is 10% unemployment right now (20%+ for college age workers), labor is cheap.


a) Regarding the Time risk, the delay was caused by changes in prototype, some Chinese holiday as
mentioned, and extended engineering to change the board from the Rev A (which you still can find its photos
on the Net). We're working very hard to reduce the delay to around 2 weeks for the singles and 4 weeks for Rigs
and Mini-Rigs.

b) Should it happen (which we haven't had any until today) That will be straight forward.

c) This solvency risk exists for everybody. Toyota is a very good example. We believe in our quality and
we won't ship until units behave as expected.


Good Luck

184  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: The best selling FPGA board on: March 23, 2012, 04:45:38 PM
We are very happy to see that based on FPGA mining LLCs research,
it turns out that their products is the best that there is on the market Smiley


Good Luck,
185  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 22, 2012, 04:28:43 PM
Received the following response about 3 hours ago to my query about Rev 3 single and Rig Box

Quote
Yes, orders today will receive Rev 3 and lead time is still 4-6 weeks and Rig box lead is 12-15 weeks.

Thanks for your interest.

Sonny K.
BFLabs, Inc.

What is the difference between revision 2 and 3? Didn't see that this was answered elsewhere.

Regarding the Rev 3, it has slight changes on the PCB to accomodate our new advanced Heatsink,
custom built for our singles. We expect a considerable increase in heat-tolerance and improved
heat evacuation. Some modifications are made to the enclosure as well.


Good Luck,
186  Economy / Economics / Re: Prices Cannot Stabilize on: March 20, 2012, 01:16:26 PM
Another way of looking at Bitcoin, is seeing it as a product of Electricity. Each miner consumes 'V' KWatts of electricity
and produces 'Z' Bitcoins. Thus 'V' x 'Processing Coefficient' = 'Z' Bitcoins / 'Reward Factor'. This holds true until all the
21Million coins are mined. After that the formula will change and miners income will be transaction based.

The price will probably stabilize when someone comes up with an idea of how it's possible to convert Bitcoins into electricity.
In other words, closing the loop... Noteworthy to say that electricity has extreme liquidity. There is no cap on its demand
as we speak, and I doubt there will ever be...


Regards,

187  Economy / Economics / Re: If JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs owned 80% of the entire Bitcoin mining power.. on: March 20, 2012, 11:28:48 AM
Again, it's simply a matter of rejecting abusive block creations. If I wanted, I could "repossess" coins like you say, but everyone would just ignore any blocks I create. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is tampering with the system when you have a bunch of txns sitting in the incomplete txn pool that shouldn't be there.

At the risk of repeating myself, my point wasn't about the difficulty *achieving* the 51% attack, but more about the power that would come once it's achieved.  However, in answer to your reply, I think that you are being a bit idealistic.  What you say is perfecty possible, but perhaps perhaps not so practical.  It requires either:
  • that lots of small time *individual* miners agree to firewall abusive IPs (and here I'm assuming that there are only a few abusive IPs, not millions such as BigGovt might muster)  OR
  • that the large mining pools are not corruptible (as in, do as BigGovt says or face the chop).  And here bear in mind that the future of bitcoin is lots of non-mining thin clients, and very few large multi-GPU,FPGA,ASIC mining arrays.  Even now the major pools supply 76% of the blocks (http://blockchain.info/pools).

And if you want proof, how come nobody has blocked the IP in this story yet?  - it's creating empty blocks: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2012/03/bitcoin-war-the-first-real-threat-to-bitcoin/

And again, like I say, if you decide to reject blocks that leave valid transactions by the wayside, you risk losing out on approved transactions to you!  You'd probably have to be running two clients - one for the Govt-approved blockchain, and another for the blackmarket chain.  Hey, the "BlackChain".  Dudes, I should copyright that  Grin


I was wondering, if governments wanted to attack BitCoin, then all they needed was enough money to fund 51% Processing Power project?
If so, how much would it cost them to construct this huge farm using a) GPUs b) FPGA and c) ASICs? Anyone has any figures?




Regards,
188  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: The best selling FPGA board on: March 19, 2012, 10:56:51 AM
Oh, this thread will probably be a little cleaner from now. Regarding the BFL single - I think it only uses twice the w/MH traditional FPGAs use. Wasn't it ~80 Wh for ~800 MH? Icarus and x6500 use 40 Wh for that amount of hashing.

I might correct that it's ~85W for 832MH/s. Of course, the board itself consumes 71-72W, but the inefficiency of the PSU
takes up to ~85W. One could use a central PSU for multiple singles, with a higher efficiency...


All the best,
189  Other / Off-topic / Mini-Rig from Butterflylabs on: March 17, 2012, 12:40:17 PM
Hello Everyone,

We wanted to evaluate the market and ask our fellow customers whether a Mini-Rig operating
at 25 GH/s and priced at half price (15K$) and consuming around 1.2KW would be something they
consider or not.

All suggestions/ideas/opinions are welcome.


Regards,
BFL
190  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 16, 2012, 12:00:45 PM
You should sell those obsolete 5970s.  Better hurry though before word gets out how noisy and ancient they are.

Are people expecting the secondary market to be flooded with GPU's once singles are being easily accessible?

I believe gamers are really going to enjoy this...
191  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 14, 2012, 03:07:35 PM
Kano (others?) is there any possibility of a miner change to make Bitforce more compatible with p2pool?  I personally have little desire to mine with the large pools again and am taking loooong looks at this platform as my next upgrade/purchase.

My understanding is that it would require a firmware/bitstream change on the BFL Single and since BFL hasn't opened up the bitstream source and/or provided any details on the chip used that will require BFL releasing a new one.

The issue is that BFL single processes an entire nonce-range (2^32 nonces) in one big "chunk" before providing any results.  2^32 / 800 MH/s = ~5.4 seconds.  With LP interval of 10 seconds you will have roughly half the hashes stale between the time they are found and the time the Single finishes the nonce range.  GPU work in smaller "chunks" and finish one chunk in a fraction of a second.  How long depends on intensity and even too high of an intensity (9 in cgminer on a 5970 is an interval of 0.0105 sec) can cause a high stale rate.  The single is working on an "intensity" 500x as high.

Making BFL single compatible w/ p2pool is possible but it would require the single to handle work completion differently.  There are a couple of options but they all involved internal changes to how the single processes and reports found hashes.  As it stands right now there is nothing Kano or any other miner developer can do.

@BFL-Engineer: Has this been brought to your attention and are you working on a solution?


What is the minimum latency that fits best for P2Pool? 1 Second? 0.5 second? 0.1 second?



Regards,
192  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: at what point is a person considered a "respectable" miner? on: March 14, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
I was wondering, if the reward goes down to 25 BTC instead of 50 BTC per block, then that will drive the bitcoin price up based on scarcity law. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

That is the 1 million BTC question.

While reward going down doe cut future supply and should be bullish to prices how much and how quickly is hard to gauge.  Remember the existing 10 million coins will still be available for trade.  Revenue in BTC will definitely be falling 50%.  Prices may rise but they likely will rise less than the 100% necessary for an "even trade" and the rise is more likely to be felt in the long term.

A miner in the short term likely will see a significant drop in revenue.  If block goes from 50 * $5 = $250 (today) to 25 * $7 = $175 after the cut the fact that prices will rise in the future may be of little comfort for the marginal miner.

Simple way to avoid that is to not be the marginal miner.  Marginal miners get squeezed out and difficulty falls boosting revenue of those who "survived".  Don't be the marginal miner.


However, FUD will shock the market. It is very likely that a bubble will form (like the one formed in May if I recall correctly). How high the bubble will go and
when it will burst is another question. Another interesting effect will be the velocity of price-decline after the burst. It may take months before the price comes
down to what it is Today ( if it ever stabilizes at this price, I expect that it will be higher ).

Another interesting effect is that certain people who have huge reserves in Bitcoin will see instant value increase in their assets. This will prevent them from selling,
since they'll be waiting for bubbles peak. This will decrease the number of Bitcoins available for trade, which in turn helps increasing overall market price of the
Bitcoin... Also, those who continue mining with GPU will expect revenue decrease and may stop mining ( if the bubble kicks in late ), which may reduce network difficulty
rate, unless it's componsated by miners who increase their processing power in preparation for the big-bang day.

I believe that many miners are already considering extreme processing power increase (2x minimum) to compensate for the expected revenue loss..

193  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: at what point is a person considered a "respectable" miner? on: March 14, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
... before the 50 to 25 BTC block reward wipes out many miners' profitability (i.e. mine - anyone in Europe with expensive electricity and GPUs will be underwater with 25 BTC block reward)...

I was wondering, if the reward goes down to 25 BTC instead of 50 BTC per block, then that will drive the bitcoin price up based on
scarcity law. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

194  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 14, 2012, 07:19:34 AM
Fred,

Can you give us more details on the throttling? Is it heat related?


Throttling is heat-related. Should the environment get hotter than the acceptable
measure for the chip, then throttling will occur. There can be a degree or two difference in
throttle-threshold among different units (For example one unit may throttle at 32 Degrees
while the other throttles at 33 Degrees (Celcius) ) .


EDIT: Good Luck Smiley

195  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 13, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
Still waiting for someone in the EU / UK to let us know what the total cost was including duty and all that crap ( VAT ) etc.

Any news about a EU distributor or something like that to avoid all these silly taxes ?

Thanks !

I could do that, problem is i need to charge some profit. Also i need to charge VAT 23% when selling to EU resident.
So the price would end up being something like 850$ Sad


We are looking looking for a tax-free strategy for Europe shipments. Stay tuned...


Regards,

196  Other / Off-topic / Re: Specs on BFL Single power adapter? on: March 13, 2012, 09:15:32 AM
ZTEX have a guide for adapting to a computer PSU:

http://wiki.ztex.de/doku.php?id=en:ztex_boards:ztex_fpga_boards:cluster_power_supplies

I guess it can be applied here, not sure about the power though.


Connecting a computer PSU to BitFORCE units is very easy. For this, all you need is a barrel jack and a PSU. The center
of the barrel jack must be connected (or soldered) to the Yellow wire (providing 12Volts) and the outer-cylinder of the
jack is connected to the black wire (the GND). Please note that each yellow wire must be able to provide 70Watts
of power (that's around 5.83A per wire).

The jack needs to be 5.5mm OD and 2.5mm ID (OD=Outer Diameter, ID=Inner Diameter).


Regards,
197  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: LargeCoin C200 Integrated Mining Unit on: March 13, 2012, 08:48:54 AM
Story time! Cheesy

OK, here's one: This was after I had sold my 2-seater Cessna 150, and while I was renting planes. Arriving at the airport, I find out that all 2-seaters, which I was intimately familiar with, were rented out or in the shop, so I decide to suck it up, pay a little bit more and rent a 4-seater (Skyhawk) instead. I had been checked out in one during the BFR a few months ago, but it wasn't what you call "fits like a glove". So I take off, fly to, whatever, Monterey or something, enjoy the coastal scenery and the toy houses below and finally get back to the home airport and land. Turns out, being not 100% familiar with a Skyhawk, I land going too fast. So what does an airplane do when you land at too fast a speed? It does what it's designed to do, it takes off again. A little. It starts to hop down the runway, doing these little bunny hops. Would be a fun thing to do (the hops don't damage the landing gear or anything), except for the insignificant little fact that while you're hopping down the runway, you cannot brake. So the shopping mall conveniently located at the end of the runway starts to get larger and larger in the windshield, as I'm still hopping down the runway at 70 knots. If you panic now, you're dead. So training and survival instinct take over, I push the throttle forward, retract the flaps and pitch the airplane into best climb angle. The shopping mall is now filling the windshield, but the airplane is light, with but one person inside, and the engine does its job and finally there is a positive climb and the airplane clears the shopping mall. Once again I enter the landing pattern, but this time I land 5 knots slower and it doesn't hop and I can brake and turn off the runway.

My point is, you haven't really lived until you have almost died once.

I believe people in the shopping mall were saying the same thing once you passed the mall. What was the stall-speed of the skyhawk? 60 Knots?
198  Other / Off-topic / Re: Specs on BFL Single power adapter? on: March 12, 2012, 11:20:36 PM
Hey Mr BFL man,
If we don't need the included PSU, can we get a discount? Smiley

We can ship your unit(s) without PSU (10$ reduction).


Regards,
199  Other / Off-topic / Re: Specs on BFL Single power adapter? on: March 12, 2012, 09:15:42 PM
Tentative good news.  OEM is considering the order a small run.  Not sure if it is past business or that the economy is slow.  In the past I know the have balked at runs below thousand units.  No idea on pricing yet, no need to respond saying you want one, and don't get your hopes up yet.

My contact called me back.  He asked for a wiring diagram to give to the team. Anyone have experience making wiring drawings?  Smiley
Diagram is pretty simple but my graphical skills are lacking.  If anyone has experience and wants to help let me know in thread or by PM.

Also if someone can measure the PSU barrel adapter.  Measure in mm the length of the metalic part.  I know BFL indicates 12mm but I just want to make sure.  12mm seems a very strange length for 2.5mm/5.5mm barrel plug.  Can't seem to find a part # anywhere (Molex, digikey, half dozen suppliers, etc).  Found 8mm length and 14mm length but not 12mm length.  Huh  If someone from BFL is reading this and has part # for the barrel power socket on the BFL Single board it would help finding an exact match.

The metallic part of the barrel jack is 12mm, but it can be longer as well. The socket part number is: CP-002BH-ND (Digikey part number)
and the manufacturer part number is: PJ-002BH.


Good Luck,
200  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Algorithmically placed FPGA miner: 192MH/s and rising on: March 10, 2012, 05:45:44 PM
  Number of DSP48A1s:                           30 out of     180   16%
Aha! Interesting. When uncle Moshe (Gavrielov) gives you DSPs, make DSPeade. Wink

Thank you for providing an important puzzle piece on how Dr. Tyrell does it.

The multiplier in the DSP48-block is not needed in SHA-256, hence what he obviously uses is the 18-bit adder
BCOUT = B + D.
He uses 30 DSP blocks, 10 per red / green / blue SHA-256 instance.
For a 32 bit adder, two 18-bit adders BCOUT=B+D are needed.
Thus, he can implement five 32-bit adders per SHA instance.

So, why not just use [slow] 32-bit ripple adders everywhere, and use a few [very fast] DSP adders in some places?

The answer is, IMHO, that he uses the fast DSP adders only where they feed into longlines.
Were he to use normal ripple adders where he feeds into longlines, the aggregate delay would limit
the design to a 5 ns clock cycle.
Using the fast DSP adders will allow this design, when properly fine-tuned, to march into 4 ns clock cycle
territory, for a total MH/s number of approximately 125 MH/s or approximately 375 MH/s per Spartan6-150.

BFL Single, watch out below.



I remember nghzang mentioned that going to 200MHz on chips was not suggested (chips got so hot), and he gave
out a bitstream with a "Use at your own risk". Three loops on the same chip suggests far greater number of
Registers is being used. Since each stage toggle rate approaches 50% (This idea behind Digest functions is that their toggle-rate
must approach 50% in each stage to be effective, and so is the case in SHA256), I wonder how hot the chips will get in high
frequencies, approaching 180MHz or 190MHz...


Good Luck,
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