Well, thanks for your responses.
On point 2) the point I was making is at median difficulty the reward was about 3:1, but currently the supply of coins won't allow for even median difficulty with the change to Pog so the reward realistically will be 5:1 or there abouts. If PoDC was eliminated...the reward shifted to PoG and the max tithe increased by a similar percentage, then we wouldn't be able to hit any where close to median difficulty and the 3:1 reward would be much much higher.
If you're unwilling to mitigate your strength in voting then let's just vote tomorrow since you hold the majority of traditionally voting nodes and at least remove the uncertainty of what will happen. You've done a lot of work and deserve a large say in how things go, but with your position of strength in voting, if you plan on voting the nodes you control then there is really no point in any debate. Just tell us the direction you're taking the coin and do it...saving us the heart ache of actually thinking we may have a real voice in this coin.
On #2, I don't think you realize we have a tithe cap or a reward cap per day in POG. In Phase 1 we only pay out 90K per day. Therefore this thing about rewards being "much higher" would not be true. They are the same in phase 1 and phase 2 (they never breach the covenant of our emission schedule). On voting: For one I have the vote scheduled in 20 days or so because POG has not really been rolled out yet. It needs to enter phase2 for people to see its value first then have something to compare PODC to. Then we will vote on schedule as block 106000 or so is when people expect the vote to be. What I am confused about is why you are trying to infer that I hold the key to the vote. Why do you think I have more than 20% of the sancs? We have approx 496 nodes right now. You should be lobbying the other approx 75% sancs that are owned by people other than me. Slovakia claimed something like I received special treatment to earn free sancs.. What did I get in payroll, 30 million bbp or so in total? Maybe that helped me buy 20 of my sancs, but I just as easily could have crashed the price, isnt it more noble to run those sancs than crash the price? All the other sancs I bought on the free market. So no, there was no special treatment. On #2 let me restate: Right now, with the current reward structure and tithe cap, at median difficulty would pay out approx 3:1 reward:tithe. The problem is median difficulty (with the revisions to Pog limiting a single tithe to a max of 10), cannot be reached with our current supply. So the level that CAN be reached is a lower difficulty that pays a higher ratio. Since all of the current supply will not be used for PoG titheing (non-participants and those with Sanctuaries), the actual reward will be MUCH HIGHER. Real numbers: The median difficulty would require coins that are 30 days old, would require the "coin amount" to be 12,500 and the maximum tithe to be 5. Since the current maximum cumulative daily tithes is basically 50,000 (50,694 is the real number), it would take 50,000/2 or 25,000 in daily tithes to reach median difficulty. This means there would be 25,000/5 or 5000 individual tithes. Each of these tithes would be supported from a coin stack that was at least 30 days old and at least 12,500 BBP in size. At median difficulty, each of the tithe's would receive an equal share of the approximately 82,000 in rewards so 82,000/5000 or 16.4 BBP per tithe (just north of 3:1 ratio). But to reach median, you in effect need 30 days * 5000 tithes * 12,500 BBP to be "locked up". That is 1.875B BBP, our current supply is only 1.3B, so we cannot reach median. Since it's likely that a large number of MN will not disband and free up their stake for PoG nor the marketplaces participate, nor even 100% of the users participate, the realistic maximum stake that can be "locked" is far less than the supply. So the actual ratio will be MUCH HIGHER than 3:1 because median difficulty is impossible over the long run with the current supply and current parameters. It gets worse if PoDC is disbanded and PoG gets the whole PoDC reward. Then the maximum tithe would by the current design go to "half the monthly charity budget", which right now would be 3.3M coins/ month or 110,000 per day (roughly double the current cap), but the reward would go from 82,000/day to over 1M/day (a twelve fold increase). With a higher cap, median difficulty could not be achieved for years or possibly decades (it would start at requiring nearly 4B coins to be "locked" into PoG). And for the near term, PoG would pay out approximately 17:1 at median difficulty (which isn't going to be possible). Realistically, achieving even difficulty at 20,000 would be a stretch, but at that level would require 18 day age, 7600 size and 7 maximum tithe amount and lock up 650M coins (half our current supply) and pay 198 BBP/7 tithe or a 28:1 ratio. So yes, I've thought this out a lot more than you give me credit for. On the voting point, I'll just say you have every right to vote all your MN, I don't feel you've cheated the system to get the (unknown) number you have. But you do know that of the Sanctuaries that normally vote, you hold the super-majority. You also know or should know that 100% participation is unheard of, even DASH only gets about 25% participation and we're more or less in line with that. So in reality, you control the direction of the coin with both your labor and can with your voting strength. So if you're dead set on PoG, just do it and reduce the uncertainty that is affecting the community. Ok, I think we are closer in agreement to the voting dilemma, that is, as long as you all know that Slovakia is lying about the sanc count and just throws numbers out there to provoke me to try to pry answers from me, by using dirty tactics (as a terrorist would). As I said I'm closer to 20-25%~ of the weight, and its my personal business if the # is fluctuating due to many personal reasons, and I'm not exadurating to hide nodes, I don't have them all set up and have unreliable hosts. The issue with me being the most active, on this-I would say that this is one of the most important decisions steering the coin. It's up to one who holds the status of Sanctuary to exercise his/her rights; its very important. If they care about this coin they should most certainly jump in and vote in 5000 blocks - so this is a very weak argument. As a matter of fact it should be spread on discord, Use your voting rights if you have them. We should see 50% on the voting rights turn out on an important vote if its important  . On dash we probably see institutions owning big shares and not knowing how to vote. Let me take a look at what you are referring to on #2. Note that I do not view your opinion as inaccurate or low - at all, nor do I think you aren't analyzing properly. I view your opinion as coming from a smart statistician, and just know that the whole time I thought you might be missing one key figure (I still think you might be missing a key figure here). Give me a few minutes and Ill respond to that separately. |
|
|
|
Thank you! It helps a lot. Another questions: - If I am entitled to tithe based on the current difficulty, How many bbp coints is the auto-tithe (tithe=x) going to send? - How often can I manually tithe? Can I send two consecutives tithe? If yes, then why there is a max limit? 1) When you check on PoG Tithe? there's a tithe amount. That is what would be sent every 4 hours if your wallet is eligible. 2) Right now, you can manually tithe as long as you are eligible. That will change soon though. Rob explained: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg49694962#msg49694962Pog primarily works the best on the machine you keep your bbp balance (as pog uses coin age to tithe).
If you want to mine on 3 machines, I recommend to set machine A up for POG, then machines B & C for solo or pool mining.
With 1187, is there a limit on how many times we can tithe and a max tithe amount? In Phase 1, if POG Diff < 5000, and the supermajority has upgraded, we only accept 5 tithes per block, and the tithe parameters have not changed. In Phase 2, after block 102025, the maximum tithe amount is 10 bbp, and we limit the tithe count to 75 per block (if diff is < 5000 for that block). In Phase 2, after block 102025, if POG diff > 5000, we limit the tithe count to 150 per block. Rejected POG tithes show up in the client as "The transaction was rejected by the network! Check your wallet to ensure the coins have not been double spent." The BBP will not be subtracted from the users balance and the icon will show as conflicted. And also just to simplify all this, after block 102024, just set tithe=10 in your wallet and it will constantly be scanning the coins to see if you are eligibile to tithe. If so it will send one - and will always be profitable in that case... So yes POG is going to be very simple in another 700 blocks. It either tithes or it doesnt. There will be only one control, the gas pedal. (In contrast to PODC, that has an airplane cockpit in it). |
|
|
|
Hmm, it looks like that tithe would not have been counted, but then otoh, we just passed 51% on this version 1187. I sent the 253 bbp back to you. What you can do in the future, is anyone who believes they have a negative ROI after block 102025, you can type: exec istithelegal txid If anyone ever observes a tithe legal = false, let me know. But this should be resolved for the most part now (since we surpassed 51% today) and then completely after block 102025 you should not see illegal tithes again (as they will be rejected by the network). This happened total of 4 times in two wallets I control. I do not mind those "extra" donations, but I am curious if this is a bug? The are calculated into pogpool at the moment. So something weird there. Its not a bug, please go with what I replied to you originally. |
|
|
|
|
The word of the day for this forum is "Diablos" - this means : backbiter, accuser, slanderer. It's another word for the Devil.
I rebuke the spirit of Diablos from this forum in Jesus name.
I command slanderers, and backbiters, and those that love Gossip, to leave now, and I dispel you from our core group in Jesus name.
I pray that you receive the Holy Spirit, and receive Jesus, and a strong urge to read the bible and love one another.
God didnt come to destroy sinners, but instead he commands us to Love our neighbor as ourself, and emit Love not hate.
|
|
|
|
If anyone would like to recruit new users for POG, please send them this link: 5000 bbp reward for POG New Users:https://www.biblepay.org/proof-of-giving.htmI'm creating a google-ad campaign now. If we don't see a couple new users per day starting tomorrow, Ill increase the reward. |
|
|
|
Hmm, it looks like that tithe would not have been counted, but then otoh, we just passed 51% on this version 1187. I sent the 253 bbp back to you. What you can do in the future, is anyone who believes they have a negative ROI after block 102025, you can type: exec istithelegal txid If anyone ever observes a tithe legal = false, let me know. But this should be resolved for the most part now (since we surpassed 51% today) and then completely after block 102025 you should not see illegal tithes again (as they will be rejected by the network). |
|
|
|
How long I will get these losses?
Tithes -1 655.10053560 Biblepay
Reward +1 614.55979473 Biblepay
Why this wallet got less rewards than it gave?
Other wallet I control made gains during same timeframe
Tithes -497.70015320 Biblepay
Reward +850.93978577 Biblepay
After block 102025 we move into Phase2 of pog, which should (and will) be profitable every day. Also, the diff will be nice and low and everyone can tithe every day! Please hang in there, and please be positive. If you know of any new users, I am offering 5000 bbp. |
|
|
|
Update on CryptoBridge,
A while back I mentioned that Stepollo direct messaged me on Discord offering us a free upgrade
Well, when Rob was ready for the exchanges to upgrade,
I notified CryptoBridge, and it turns out Stepollo's offer had no backing,
he didnt have permission yet from the higher ups at CryptoBridge...
they still havent upgraded us nor do I believe they have any plans or intentions to upgrade us without payment...
Thanks at least we tried! |
|
|
|
I support Proof of Giving (POG), Proof of Distributed Computing (PODC) is awesome, but it has its flaws, relying on centralized servers for verification, etc, Swongel pointed this stuff out long ago when the work was first being started: https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=223 >>> "Recent Posts", I think his best posts were deleted though sadly, but Rob later mentioned Swongel being right about some stuff when he started his work on POG I think the flipping point for Rob was a while back mentioned he tried to get 5 "regular" people in his life into BiblePay mining, none of them could set it up LOL, I think a lot of you do not realize how smart you guys are at computers compared to regular people, [I had to teach my Mom how to create New Folders on her PC a few years ago LOL] I dont know how things will end up, the crypto winter has been brutal, but we shall see how it goes! I'll take the bait and reply to this, since for the most part Togo, you have been a great asset to BiblePay and I want to thank you for all you have done for us. We were excited about this project together and put our life into it for a year - and we both know that a large attribute of the decline of our price is the HODL crash itself. So what Togo is saying is that Swongel made the argument at one point in time, that a mining algorithm that requires an oracle is only as good as the trustworthiness of the oracle. And even back then privately I agreed with him (so its not really technically that Im flip flopping), its that I held the true belief that we could overcome the trustworthiness of the Oracle, by writing reports that would give PODC credibility. Another words, I believed that using a third party (BOINC) to report RAC was a manageable risk, but at the time I believed we could overcome the risk by maintaining a tamper-proof environment (IE a report that alerts us of any 3rd party credit tampering). But since then, the new information supplied to me was that my friends and family even told me what is stopping them from mining on biblepay is PODC is too complicated. This alone caused me to research POG (and of course alternative CPU mining algorithms) to replace PODC. It is true however that (a man must provide as much backing as possible when one is in an endeavor) one of the aspects of PODC that was communicated to me (not by Swongel himself) and I always had it in the back of my mind, is that some larger whales will not invest in coins without a hard consensus (another words, they dont really care if we consider our Oracle to be 100% trustworthy because we have advanced alerts and reports), they simply say, can this blockchain be reconciled 100% by itself without an oracle, if not I'm not touching that coin. Its been on my mind and it is a concern; as financial systems should be 100% trustworthy; the code is public, the emissions are public, the emission rate, the supply, and where the mining is going is 100% reconcilable in POG. So I admit I didnt jump on the bandwagon with that last point until we got to where we were when I considered POG for ease-of-use. If you analyze the top 100 coins, they don't rely on oracles. The only place for oracles is in betting (IE the oracle is used to settle a smart contract that people already escrowed - in contrast to coinbase rewards). So technically, we have not achieved the whale blessing test yet; until we : Open pog up to the full reward schedule, disable PODC, and optionally our dash rebase. We would then potentially be 'whale approved' (possibly). |
|
|
|
Don't completely discard PODC,make BBP a multi-algorithm pow currency，everyone can mine bbp using the algo he likes.
We can't support the code maintenance on PODC and make it easy to use and professional unless its a full use algo. |
|
|
|
So with the PoG change, will the new values for max_tithe be 10-1 (descending) and the min_coin_age stay 0-60 and min_coin_amount stay 1-12500?
If so, then to achieve median difficulty would take 5000 tithes a day, but those users would have to have a combined "stake" of 62.5M BBP that was 30 days old, meaning to sustain that level (just median) would take more coins than currently exist (1.875B). And at that level, tithers would see a return of approximately 16 BBP for each 5 BBP tithe. Since the level of difficulty would have to be lower, you're looking at a much much higher reward in practice which becomes very troubling as, again, it would be no net cost - no risk and have no psychological floor (whereas someone generating coins that cost them 1 cent per 100 to make, has a reason to not sell for less that 1/100th of a cent).
If the min_coin_age and min_coin_amount decrease, then it diminishes the impact of decreasing the max_tithe.
I make no bones about being a PoDC supporter, but PoG is not a system that brings much benefit when I look at it objectively. No risk mining means no real price floor. When coin age exceeds a few weeks, it reduces the ease of entry for new users, but without it, the whales would rule the system. It has the potential to be very inconsistent with both rewards and how often a user can tithe, both of which make getting new users difficult. It doesn't sufficiently constrain supply...unlike Proof of Burn which eliminates coins from the economy, or Proof of Stake which typically locks coins in for longer terms for rewards. PoG adds network traffic that we can sustain for now, but when you compare to our theoretical maximum transaction limit (which I've ballparked before and don't have the numbers in front of me), 5000 additional transactions a day could start to have an impact. In short, even though I feel PoG would benefit me personally, I don't see it being beneficial for the coin at large.
I ask with all due respect, that when the PoDC vote occurs, one option is to eliminate PoG. I also request that the community at large be heard and to that end would ask for a commitment from Rob to not vote more than a handful of the Sanctuaries under his control.
1) No; the new values are 10 max_tithe descending yes, but coin_age starts at .25 a day minimum - 60 ascending, and the min_coin_amount stays the same. 2) On the median difficulty and 'much higher reward' in practice; no, everyone works with a relative share weight which is related to their applicable coin count from #1, and the tithe cap remains the same and the max reward per day (90k) remains the same, so no this is not true, actually I dont even follow the logic here. Once coin age is spent, the newbie who waited 7 days to stake that coin has to wait until the coin age matures again to get back in the pool, so there is no additional reward in phase 2 compared to phase 1. What we do see is more participants in the pool and lower average difficulty for everyone. 3) If the 'no risk-no price floor' were true then a coin like PIVX would be worthless. Obviously people value each share of their crypto with more facets than electricity as an inputs. I listed some of them 50 pages back: future price target, innovation, expectation of dash to have more success, expectation that our devs are good, central bank expectations, many things go into pricing each share other than electricity. So you might be right about going from 7 satoshi floor to 6, but even that is laughable because Im not holding BBP to appreciate from 7 satoshi to 8 because of electric. Its laughable. Were holding biblepay because we know biblepay is deflationary, will provide real world value in the future and we believe in the devs and the technology that is entering the project. We know that some day Rob and MIP are going to succeed in the killer feature and biblepay will be in the top 100 list. At the same time the Christians will catch on and out of 1 billion, we see a certain sliver that likes crypto. Thats the expectation. Not a measly 10% increase in electric cost over 10 years . 4) If you are concerned about the PODC vote level I recommend you buy enough bbp to have more sanctuary count than me. Obviously every one who buys a sanctuary has the right to vote with it the way they please. It would be foolish not to use that right. On a side note, I still believe in POG and think PODC is too complicated for the average Christian. In addition I think adding in PODC is not completely aligned with our vision (of having a high percentage of believers who contribute in development to this coin). Well, thanks for your responses. On point 2) the point I was making is at median difficulty the reward was about 3:1, but currently the supply of coins won't allow for even median difficulty with the change to Pog so the reward realistically will be 5:1 or there abouts. If PoDC was eliminated...the reward shifted to PoG and the max tithe increased by a similar percentage, then we wouldn't be able to hit any where close to median difficulty and the 3:1 reward would be much much higher. If you're unwilling to mitigate your strength in voting then let's just vote tomorrow since you hold the majority of traditionally voting nodes and at least remove the uncertainty of what will happen. You've done a lot of work and deserve a large say in how things go, but with your position of strength in voting, if you plan on voting the nodes you control then there is really no point in any debate. Just tell us the direction you're taking the coin and do it...saving us the heart ache of actually thinking we may have a real voice in this coin. On #2, I don't think you realize we have a tithe cap or a reward cap per day in POG. In Phase 1 we only pay out 90K per day. Therefore this thing about rewards being "much higher" would not be true. They are the same in phase 1 and phase 2 (they never breach the covenant of our emission schedule). On voting: For one I have the vote scheduled in 20 days or so because POG has not really been rolled out yet. It needs to enter phase2 for people to see its value first then have something to compare PODC to. Then we will vote on schedule as block 106000 or so is when people expect the vote to be. What I am confused about is why you are trying to infer that I hold the key to the vote. Why do you think I have more than 20% of the sancs? We have approx 496 nodes right now. You should be lobbying the other approx 75% sancs that are owned by people other than me. Slovakia claimed something like I received special treatment to earn free sancs.. What did I get in payroll, 30 million bbp or so in total? Maybe that helped me buy 20 of my sancs, but I just as easily could have crashed the price, isnt it more noble to run those sancs than crash the price? All the other sancs I bought on the free market. So no, there was no special treatment. |
|
|
|
PS: you can use nick for in wallet chat if you want  wallet chat is still testnet only. If you can switch your nickname around, I wouldn't trust the chat. subway
I was thinking rather than e-mail, if you send a BBP tx with an encrypted message to the public address, then the private key can decrypt the message with the gift card code. I think this is more reliable than e-mail. I tried playing around with sign message and verify message, but it wasn't exactly what I had in mind... but I guess if the message was encrypted in tx and could be decrypted automatically by the right private key holder, the process would be easy. I can switch my nickname around on Discord or SouthXChange or PM also... Just look at Slovakia's he has 9 on SX. I'm aware of this problem though, and of course this will be taken into consideration for voting on objects (by using a keypair). I was not eluding to using the chat nickname for anything important. I was really just alluding to rather seeing a distinct list than a bloated list of duplicated wallets. It may still be valuable to engage the POG list for something (like prayer campaigns) or something in the future. |
|
|
|
|
** C-CEX ALERT **
Please don't deposit or withdraw BBP from C-CEX until further notice.
We have a ticket in for them to go into maintenance and upgrade, we will post again after the wallet is ready.
|
|
|
|
|
If anyone knows the owner of c-cex, please PM me.
|
|
|
|
BiblePay pool ( https://pool.biblepay.org) is now giving away 5000 bbp to new POG users. Head to the faucet if you are new user to get started now. |
|
|
|
I'm trying to understand how that relates to Biblepay. Are you seeking to turn away Christians who do believe that evolution is real? What's the link to BBP? Are you the person who keeps posting political content in the wallet prayer? Or are we free to post our thoughts about Christianity here? Because I have collected some pretty radical interpretations of the teachings that might be interesting. In case the video is on-topic for this thread, let me share these ideas: There's not a lot of evidence I can find that evolution and Christianity are incompatible. Take this: there was a time that people did not know that black holes existed in God's universe. When we learned of them, did we think they were unreal? No, we updated our concept of God's universe to include black holes. Science will have to update its models too. That statistic of 1000 PhDs not believing evolution is misleading. In just the top 5 countries in the world, there are about 150,000 PhDs graduates...each year. So at best that 1000 PhDs represent a very, very small portion of the whole. So, it would imply that most Christian doctors actually do believe in evolution. Interesting. I want to thank Rob for bringing up this link and inviting further discussion about a fascinating topic--evolution and Christianity. I look forward to hearing others' opinions on the subject. These 1,000 signatures are just from the movement who signed on to fight the lefts campaign to discredit scientists who are skeptical of darwinism (in contrast to the % of total phds). I dont have the link for the campaign handy. Yes, of course this forum can be used for Christian edification, as long as it doesnt pollute it too much and is geared toward potential BiblePay improvements and is positive. I do maintain that if we create a topic that deserves further attention we really should create a dedicated thread for it on forum.biblepay, but of course this is a good place to throw brand new ideas in. I'm constantly looking for the Best way to spend my time to extend Gods Kingdom. So from my standpoint I sometimes throw things out that change the priorities (the most bang for the buck) for development and for BiblePay. (How does that fit, it fits because Im designing features that are consumed from Christian spaces and a Christian economy in the future, things like voting on Christian videos and content in Christian spaces, so it is relevant). As far as if darwinism is valid and all that, I started to work on a web page for that a while back, I think it is best if I stop here and finish that first before I get the middle of the discussion. EDIT: On political content, no, Im not the one who posted Vote for Trump, Im the one who posts stuff like we need to ask the country to repent for its behavior. I go as far as calling some of the Left disciples who believe in abortion to birth laws disciples of Satan, but I dont go as far as posting political beliefs in the chain. I do say pray for Trump because hes our leader in the US. |
|
|
|
I am on this coin over a year now.
i am aware of frustrations from everyone due to price decline.
If I would bail out, I will lose thousands of dollars.
However, I am so shocked on the time and effort Rob put into this coin,
it seems that he put into it all his time and a lot of his money.
I appropriate it a lot Rob, Thanks for your effort supporting us,
with this effort continuing we cannot fail.
God bless you good man.
Thanks, and I am happy you are on board, and I pray people like you make up the majority of this project in a year. |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
