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1921  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: May 11, 2013, 02:24:55 PM
BkkCoins,

I may missed this but i am wondering if there will be a way to diagnose if a chip gets broken. You have mentioned that all 8 chips will stop hashing. Are you planning by design to add some debug points - hardware or software so we to be able to find out exactly which chip(s) are faulty if any?

10x!
1922  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Kneckes custom Heatsinks for DIY Avalon Boards on: April 30, 2013, 11:31:23 PM
Yes i can confirm that i wrote that but you see the maybe at the beginning of the sentence.
I cant give exact prices without knowing how much ppl are interested and how many meters profile I need, i only can give a pricerange.

ATM I am obtaining offers for both profiles at wholesalers to get the best price which is possible - requesting 100 and 1.000 Meters

Until the weekend i should get an offer from the wholesaler i think, then i can give a more exact price.
Super!

I will be away for 10 days but this will be one of the first threads to check. As i told you i am looking to get 130 heatsinks

Good luck dude.
PS: the exact price will give you pretty good estimation how many people will be interested.
My math so far:
i need (TO3) 12x48.60+ 22 Euro for shipping assuming they are less than 31 kg. I am not calculating VAT because i will not pay it when I buy them  as a company according to Eu laws. That makes 5.04 as bulk price for 10x10 heatsink
1923  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Kneckes custom Heatsinks for DIY Avalon Boards on: April 30, 2013, 11:09:08 PM
Dude,

1. I am glad that you will ship to anybody
2. If both me (all of Eu) customers do it like BtoB VAT is avoided completely for both parties you and us. No one is loosing Wink
3. No hard feelings but for that amount of money even cheaper i can get the heatsink right away localy

Summary

If you really can do it as you stated (I am OK with bulk order no holes and cut just raw profile)
-------------------------------------
Maybe i can get 6 meters raw profile, that would bring the price down to 3-5 EUR per 100x100 heatsink.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That will be deal for me

do not get me wrong i am not trying to argue with you about anything i am just pointing out my possisition and facts
1924  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Kneckes custom Heatsinks for DIY Avalon Boards on: April 30, 2013, 10:48:09 PM
I am interested also.
However i have two questions:
1. Will you ship to individuals as long as we cover the costs
2. How the price went up from 3-5 as you stated to 6+ Euro even 8-10? Because of the VAT or?

I am aware that your labor, machine and time do cost for sure but is more than double compared to your estimations
10X
PS: let us discuss price of the heatsinks alone. Shipping costs are as they are according to destination and quantity
1925  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 09:17:03 PM
Quote
You made my day !

Maybe i can get 6 meters raw profile, that would bring the price down to 3-5 EUR per 100x100 heatsink.
You are talking about TO3 package which ha better thermal resistance right. Only holes are needed correct
10X

For both profiles, yes hole patterns are needed.

the profiles have a thermal resistance of ~ 1K/W, and with a fan you can lower it to 0.5K/W.

I think i could produce 5,000 - 10,000 heatsinks, in this case the hole patterns, a week if there is demand.
Count me in i will need about 130 as a start i hope Wink
and i am in EU so shipping should be no issue

Thank you very much!

PS: Bkkcoins do you think it is a better idea to mount two additional heatsinks on top of dc/dc converters also?

1926  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 08:48:18 PM
heatsinks: https://www.buerklin.com/default.asp?event=ShowArtikel%2873B210%29&context=SE:Profilk%C3%BChlk%C3%B6rper&l=d&jump=ArtNr_73B210&ch=29287&ajaxLoad=true

heatsink2: https://www.buerklin.com/default.asp?event=ShowArtikel%2872B364%29&context=SE:Profilk%C3%BChlk%C3%B6rper&l=d&jump=ArtNr_72B364&ch=92077&ajaxLoad=true

price: 6,72€ @ 100 pcs 100x100

its also available by the meter so we can produce e.g. 100x500 for 5 boards.

I know first one is for TO3 package, but
I would offer tapping on our HAAS for a special hole pattern:



And could send the Heatsinks to Burnin and BkkCoins

Maybe i can get 6 meters raw profile, that would bring the price down to 3-5 EUR per 100x100 heatsink.

You made my day !

Maybe i can get 6 meters raw profile, that would bring the price down to 3-5 EUR per 100x100 heatsink.
You are talking about TO3 package which ha better thermal resistance right. Only holes are needed correct
10X
1927  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
Socket mount approach also sounds very good. .....


+1
But such pcb socket could cost 100+USd x 16 chips...we can only dream. And we will say goodbuy to cooling as long chip is contacting socket only not pcb. pcb socket is good solution for a test single chip board or something like this. I like the led idea in general for production PCB for sure. We have to be able to identify broken/defective or malfunction chips soldered on production PCB.
Bkkcoins can you put a comment here.
10X
1928  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 06:21:36 PM
The part about defective chips, or replacing individual chips intrigues me. If Klondike is a 16 chip board, and 1 or 2 fail or die, there should be a way to identify which one, and there should be a way to replace only those. Sockets are an option. Desoldering and soldering on a replacement chip can also work (all these cell phone electrician repair guys can do it.)

If you can identify or single out a chip, that would be great. If it's physical damage, that should be easy enough. If not, you're going to play mastermind or jigsaw on your board trying to figure out which ones are good and which ones are dead.
+1
I do think that 2 dbg pins are for that but we have to wait for docs. It will be great if we can do it. I do not know how chips are tested in FAB but it can happen that some small amount are "dead born" or damaged during the assembly. We have to have a way to diagnose this
1929  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Avalon batch [2] countdown! on: April 30, 2013, 06:09:00 PM
and just be glad you didn't order from BFL.
I actually ordered from BFL, i refused to pay back in september when i smelled problems.
Avalon failed to give any credible explanations for these delays, while, at the same time, the network hashrate is growing at the same exact speed they claimed they where manufacturing batch 1 products at.

What does that tells you?
That there is a shortage of capacitors and resistors in China?

You have a fab that produces money making machines. Do you shut the fab down for 2 months?

You are correct, i should never have tried to explain facts and expect explanations on bitcointalk, because i magically become the one to blame.

If there are 1000 trade ins paid each 75btc, that's 75kbtc. If they also start selling the "avalon mini" during these weeks, that's another 3000 (survey number) * 20 btc (made up price) = 60kbtc. That would bring the grand total of btc in preorders to avalon this year alone to 285kbtc. That's only 41 million dollars. All whitout delivering a single product paid this year. BFL looks like a virgin compared to that.

And i'm the one to blame!
Dude,

Sometimes there is something more important than money even though we are talking for millions!
For instance i am unplugging everything for 10 days for my vacation i do not care how much it will cost. I just do not wanna think about it.
Same can happen with anybody for any amount

Thats fine to say if it only effects you -- as a choice.  When it involves other people, thats a different story.  People have different priorities with their money.  People are here to get ahead in the game.  If money wasn't that big of a deal, they could just go back to a 9-5 job and forget bitcoin and be happy.
I am just saying that it is not the end of the world for me and for other people also. I agree that it is personal choice but my choice is to die poor i will not need the money in afterlife. So we have to spend them in one way or another. How can this happen working 7x24?Wink
1930  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 06:03:36 PM
PS: that is why i am still considering mineral oil as an option. It is bit messy but it is just nonesence for me to pay 10+USd for a pice of metal

Remember up to 3 W/chip isnt that much, a passive cooled heatsink something in the range of 1 °C/W is more than enough, and with a fan everthing should be cool as ice.

calc:
- 10 chips ~ 30 W
- ambiance Temp ~ 20°C
= 50° C without a fan and it will be lesser with a fan.

I will make a FEM simulation with a profile heatsink, and publish the result.


I know Knecke .
But such a heatsink with 1 °C/W is tick and expensive about 20 USD for 10x10 board. Make calculations for 100+ boards. I will be glad to see your caclcs and if you can post some links to cheapest one which will do the trick for 10x10 board
10X

PS. I am in EU a link to Eu site is mostly welcomed
1931  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Avalon batch [2] countdown! on: April 30, 2013, 02:43:06 PM
and just be glad you didn't order from BFL.
I actually ordered from BFL, i refused to pay back in september when i smelled problems.
Avalon failed to give any credible explanations for these delays, while, at the same time, the network hashrate is growing at the same exact speed they claimed they where manufacturing batch 1 products at.

What does that tells you?
That there is a shortage of capacitors and resistors in China?

You have a fab that produces money making machines. Do you shut the fab down for 2 months?

You are correct, i should never have tried to explain facts and expect explanations on bitcointalk, because i magically become the one to blame.

If there are 1000 trade ins paid each 75btc, that's 75kbtc. If they also start selling the "avalon mini" during these weeks, that's another 3000 (survey number) * 20 btc (made up price) = 60kbtc. That would bring the grand total of btc in preorders to avalon this year alone to 285kbtc. That's only 41 million dollars. All whitout delivering a single product paid this year. BFL looks like a virgin compared to that.

And i'm the one to blame!
Dude,

Sometimes there is something more important than money even though we are talking for millions!
For instance i am unplugging everything for 10 days for my vacation i do not care how much it will cost. I just do not wanna think about it.
Same can happen with anybody for any amount

1932  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 11:15:38 AM


PS: that is why i am still considering mineral oil as an option. It is bit messy but it is just nonesence for me to pay 10+USd for a pice of metal




You would still need a way to cool the oil. after days(or hours) of continuous operation, oil would start getting hot...
I know dude Smiley

One big radiator with decent pump will do it. My air conditioner is blowing constantly already Smiley

I still do think that mineral oil for 20+Pcb will be better solution in terms of price and cooling but i do not want to go over that shit unless i am not forced to

If we do find cheap heat sink supplier in alibaba and we do order upfront with cheapest shipping i do believe that we can get appropriate heatsinks for 5-6USD top which will be ok. After holidays i will sent a dozen of mails to random heatsink suppliers to check this and will report results. However before doing this i would like to have final bkkcoins confirmation for pcb size



1933  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary on: April 30, 2013, 10:35:28 AM
Quote from: BkkCoins
I looked on heatsinkusa and could only see a $12.35 option for 4" wide cut to 4" length. I guess I didn't find the right one. Can you give me a link to the $5 one? I'd like to see and if it's right then I'll just tell people they could order those, though I think even cheaper options could turn up.

I see they have a 4" wide option with 2" high fins for $12. Maybe that is large if we want to stack them close together.

They also have 3.5 and 4.2" inch sizes with .75" high fins for about $4 and $5 respectively. If 3.5x4" is big enough, $4.36 is pretty cheap.

Those 2" high heatsinks are quite beefy. The site claims a thermal resistance of 1.4 degrees C/watt for a 3"x4" section (presumably with natural convection). With such a thermal resistance, it looks like you can dissippate the heat of 16 chips with a slow/quiet fan, or perhaps no fan at all.
I think that one is very good but a bit expensive. They actually rate it at 1.4deg/W for a 3" section. So if it were 4" it should be a bit better at 1.05. With 35C air and 32W we'd be looking at 1.05*32 + 35 = 66C. Even with a small fan it would be good. However, I'd prefer to see something cheaper than $12.35. It's crazy that the most costly single part involved is a chunk of metal. When I have time I'll do some extensive searching but if other want to scour the web for something suitable I'd welcome suggestions. We're looking for something 1.05C/W or less for about $5 or less.

BkkCoins ,

Do not forget that heatsinks are heavy (with big volume weight also). As long as we are 100% sure about board size 10x10 i will look forward to alibaba and i will try to find a heatsink supplier having in mind 1+ month for delivery (to cut delivery costs as much as possible). If we need them fast it may turn out that delivery cost alone will be more than heatsinks
I will share my findings about hetsinks here also.

PS: that is why i am still considering mineral oil as an option. It is bit messy but it is just nonesence for me to pay 10+USd for a pice of metal


1934  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 06:26:07 PM
BkkCoins,
I am not an expert but simple math as I see it is:  71.5/240(chips)x7W each(about 8% on top over clocked)x16Chips as planned = 33.33W/1.2V/2 (each group of 8 chips) = 13.90A

So will be 12A enough to over clock chips at 300?
I'm curious if you've measured actual at wall power use when over-clocking? Is 8% based on that or on the 71.5 / 66 ratio. It may not be a linear increase. It would be useful to know what "at the wall" actual power use is.

The IR3895 is rated at 16A and the inductor is rated at 18A. I feel relatively safe they'll be ok at 14A but the efficiency will take a bit of a hit - about 1-2% more loss. Lowering the voltage from 1.2 to 1.15 is likely beneficial in reducing power use and heat. The voltage is determined by a resistor pair on the buck regulator and it supports as low as 1.0V. It's quite feasible during testing I'll be able to determine that a under-volted core supply is workable. It seems like Avalon does this and it's something to look at.

I thought about a programmable resistor to allow software control of core voltage but I'm not sure that's worthwhile. It would depend if there is a suitable product cheap enough. Like an I2C/SPI 8 pin chip or something. I may explore that later if time allows - it would be pretty nice.
I have not measured power yet. I do completely agree that we have to pay the efficiency cost when we do overclock. What woried me that other elemnts will not allow more than 12A but this turns to be false a.larm
Thank you for your update
1935  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 02:56:02 PM
BkkCoins,

Please comment my Power thoughts. I am armature with hardware. So please excuse me if there is something stupid posted

According to Avalon:

Chip power efficienty: 6.6W/GHs @ 1.15 V

When chip is clocked at 300 my Avalon is making 71.5 Gh stable all the time

I am not an expert but simple math as I see it is:  71.5/240(chips)x7W each(about 8% on top over clocked)x16Chips as planned = 33.33W/1.2V/2 (each group of 8 chips) = 13.90A

As you stated:

I only pull 12A from each IR3895 keeping it in the more efficient operating area and not pushing it's heat dissipation.

So will be 12A enough to over clock chips at 300?
PS:
Other way around

Module power consumption: 149W @ 20GHs / 164W@ 22GHs

164/80*16/1.2/2=13.67 Amps clocked at 275 (or 285 i do not remember exact number)
However it would be more when clocked at 300
1936  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 12:58:36 PM


Since I won't have to do it all myself I've decided that the 2 layer board is history and I'll be moving directly to working only on the 4 layer board. In 100+ qty the cost difference is not worth the hassle, and the 4 layers will result in an overall better board. It does raise the ante a bit for people who want to make their own boards, as they'll need to commit more up front, but I think later I'll be able to offer cheap enough boards for those who only need a few.


1+ for four layer PCB!
1937  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 11:53:22 AM
Small donation of 0.3 btc is on the way. No one expects a free boards or chips or WHATEVER  for donation or at least me. My thinking is that we have to help you out to cover the expenses at least since it is not a business project for you as i see things. I am not mentioning the time and knowledge invested
Thx. At this stage it's not really a business. It's more like another possible chance to have a working open source board in 9-10 weeks. It'll be really hard if none of the current DIY board makers get there.

But later when I have a working board it's entirely feasible to take on orders and ship kits, or assembled units. I'm just not comfortable with being another "order now, maybe later" type outfit. When I have a working board I'll figure out what to do next. Maybe take investors and go big, or maybe fund myself and go small. Maybe just mine away and be happy. But the result will be another board design out there for anyone to build.
+1
Do whatever you want dude. I am really happy that you are here and working on it Cheesy
As long you are helping the community we are obliged to help you out that is my way of thinking. I am completely aware that shit can always happen but i will not be disappointed whatever comes out.
10X
1938  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 11:35:46 AM

Anyone who wants to help out with a donation is welcome. I'm not committing to give boards for donations yet. Anything sent to my address below will be put towards more chips before the May 1st zefir deadline (since I already have an order and can combine them for shpg).

Donate: 1BvpJvejSmtWjuDfytZL5HTBUjoXokazp9


Small donation of 0.3 btc is on the way. No one expects a free boards or chips or WHATEVER  for donation or at least me. My thinking is that we have to help you out to cover the expenses at least since it is not a business project for you as i see things. I am not mentioning the time and knowledge invested

Guy's, please donate whatever you can afford!!! Every Btc matters!

10X
1939  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 10:30:00 AM
......
 Also need to add holes between chips to mount heat sink on back. Board shown above is far from complete.


I know. Can you publish address for donations also. I will send some btc right away because of your efforts

PS: What about power supply when multiple boards will be stacked? It wil go to additional power connector? or we will have to extend/divide our PSU PCI connectors?
Shall the  for ALU heat sink will be enough? I know cooper is recommended but it will be expensive as long as know. Do you have a price idea how much ALU/Cooper heatsink may cost for 10x10 board?
10X
1940  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC OS Board - Preliminary on: April 29, 2013, 09:48:21 AM
Super!

I am in!
Buy the way as far as i know 4 layer PCB needs testing itself. Not all factories can do that. Is your PCB factory a reliable one?

PS: do not forget holes for stacking to make them tower like setup Wink



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