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what is even stranger is those 0.00777 received btc to the addresses named above, seem to have happened only recently, on February the 6th 2014 and later.
edit: the 0.00777 theory being related might be a false after checking random top 100 richlist addresses. Too many of them received exactly 0.00777 btc. (mostly on febr the 6th 2014)
Maybe it is some troll or part of how the btc protocol works, resulting in many such 0.00777 transactions
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nice article, but it accounts only for 90k of the coins and claims that not even this is certain. I think we need something a bit more in-depth than this to be satisfied. All the addresses mentioned in this article i already mentioned in this thread plus more all having the 0.00777 received btc pattern included. It cannot be just coincidence that all addresses linked to the former 424k btc proof by karpeles all having at least one 0.00777 received btc transactions in them along with a all zero digits in front of the dot pattern sub the first digit edit: after checking some more addresses in the richlist top 100, i found many of them contain the 0.00777 received btc pattern, so this cannot be used anymore as a link to the mtgox cold storages. Most of those transactions were issued on the 6th febr 2014, but also later |
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This raises the question, who is lying?
In the Gox leaked crisis plan, it stated they had 2,000 Bitcoins to their name. This means either the document was false, Mark or an employee had lied in the document in an attempt to hide the funds or the firm have lost the private keys for the wallets rendering them nothing more than eye candy.
We are not claiming they didn't lose some coins legitimately to the malleability bug but there is no way that 500,000 coins could have been stolen. Even the planets worst auditor wouldn't have missed such a large amount of Bitcoins disappearing from the companies reserve.
Could this be an attempt to walk away with stashed Bitcoins or has the company been running on lies after finding out their wallets were missing funds and/or they lost the private keys.
This is exactly what i have been saying and everyone just calls me names and stuff. If you watch the video: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=493858.0He says he has 'identified the problem' and is 'working on it' What else could that mean other than - they screwed up their wallets/keys and are trying to fix it now. Great work you guys are doing. If we can prove they still have the coins then something surely can be done. There is the question remaining still, why if this is the case, he simply does not tell us and points us to the cold storage wallets. Either manipulation or gag order or blackmail or a mix of all that. |
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additional to what i post in here before, the addresses i linked that follow the pattern of having all zeroes in front of the dot (except the first/front digit), there is a second pattern the second pattern is, all of the addresses that were linked to the 424k proof address karpeles sent the 424k in to proof that the exchange has all funds still have at least one transaction received of exactly 0.00777 btc additional to this, there are many of the addresses which i linked that also include both patterns. Quoting myself from another thread source https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=495089.msg5454694#msg5454694the 0.00777 pattern i read about in another thread, so i just wanted to connect this with what i figured out so far. |
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Don't be shy. Add a comment about willing to dish in some reward in case someone solves this mystery. Even 0.1 btc will be good.
It cannot be that i am the only one interested in solving this when i do not even have any funds stuck in mtgox.
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This thread is only for a complete bulletproof theory There in-lies the problem. The only way to get a complete bulletproof theory is to get MtGox to open up their information and records to be scrutinized, which, hah...yeah right. With the info from the letstalkbitcoin action from 2011, it's about as solid as you can get that: 1. The two wallets being referred to were created by MtGox/Mark 2. On 2011-11-16 05:59:08, 40,000 bitcoin were transferred one wallet: ( https://blockchain.info/address/1cXNTyXj4xPGopfYZNY5xfSM1EPJJvBZV) 3. Those 40,000 bitcoin were untouched and to this moment are still in that wallet. 4. On 2011-11-16 05:59:08, 50,000 bitcoin were transferred to the other wallet: ( https://blockchain.info/address/1P3S1grZYmcqYDuaEDVDYobJ5Fx85E9fE9) 5. Those 50,000 bitcoin were untouched and to this moment are still in that wallet. TL;DR - Pretty substantial proof MTGOX/Mark had control of those wallets when the deposits were made and the bitcoin haven't moved since. i already mentioned those in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=492776.msg5437308#msg5437308You will see that many of those wallets i linked follow two patterns. One is all digits in front of the dot being zero (except the front digit of course) The second pattern is, MOST of those wallets getting a 0.00777 receive transaction in. examples the ones that wre mentioned in that thread https://blockchain.info/address/1P3S1grZYmcqYDuaEDVDYobJ5Fx85E9fE9 50k https://blockchain.info/address/1cXNTyXj4xPGopfYZNY5xfSM1EPJJvBZV 40k https://blockchain.info/address/12HddUDLhRP2F8JjpKYeKaDxxt5wUvx5nq 40k https://blockchain.info/address/16Ls6azc76ixc9Ny7AB5ZPPq6oiEL9XwXy 40k https://blockchain.info/address/1MyGwFAJjVtB5rGJa32M6Yh46cGirUta1K 30k others i linked in my thread following those two patterns https://blockchain.info/address/13ssxUjmQqemuiBfJSBsr7gFX7UWU7uXNK 20k https://blockchain.info/address/1LDWDufjU5ATbozDZY3uChb7oPAbDaiB7K 15k https://blockchain.info/address/1MeCzxxB8eDd17DaocFLQaQtH8seVjNM67 10k https://blockchain.info/address/19PPeuu4jPjqtefSQ2FDgKmNJ88Z5wiuJt 10k .... a lot more 10k cold storages following the two patterns wasn't 777 some illuminati symbol? I am sure we will be able to compose a full list of those 0.00777 transactions containing cold storage wallets. Many of those will NOT be MtGox wallets as 777 is like 666 a heavily used number, not just by the illuminati, but also by satanists and master trolls |
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Please refrain from posting any half theories you are not even certain about they are true. We already have enough of those in other threads. This thread is only for a complete bulletproof theory, or otherwise it will just get spammed and filled to a point where i cannot maintain it anymore and would have to start another thread. |
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Locking this topic - IF anyone wants to continue this, feel free. I am not offering a reward anymore since i am moving out of crypto for good(see last message)
Current total reward: 3.65 BTC
myself: 0.3 btc
CompNsci: 1 btc
BrewCrewFan: 0.1 btc
rochkey: 0.25 btc
Gotgoxed 1.5 btc
btcusury 0.5 btc
As the title says, i will reward 0.3 BTC to whoever can without any doubt(or little doubt) show us the chain of events from MtGox filling up the cold storage wallets before it was robbed supposedly, to the coins leaving the cold storage wallets into the thief's/thieves' hand/s, possibly passing through a mixer afterwards or an exchange which does not keep track of IDs.
He will have to show us all cold storage wallets that were in MtGox's possession (the exact addresses) and show us the chain of events in the blockchain of the coins escaping those cold storage wallets.
I don't care if it is a copy and paste job, as long as you can explain exactly where all the 750k(850k with gox own BTC?) went to. You can use whatever info you want, including this site but have to deliver a complete bulletproof theory.
I might not understand it fully, and will wait for rewarding until a great majority of the community agrees or i understood it fully.
To say it again. It won't matter if you did a copy and paste job. The only thing that matters is who posts a full bulletproof theory inside THIS thread.
I encourage people to add to this reward ( i cannot promise however those people will stand to their word).
I will keep updating the total reward above as people in this thread dish more into it.
edit: keep it real. Don't dish more in than like 1% of your BTC
edit2: Just to clarify cut and paste. It should be a cut and paste from pieces completing the puzzle, not taking someone elses complete work and just pasting it in here.
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Like I said, I asked MANY times over the last week by email etc: Where are the coins? Do you have them? Can you provide the exact status? People want and need clarity, can you explain?
sry, but i must be blind, cause i missed that part of your article. Can you please point to me where you asked mark directly where the coins went to exactly as in showing you the cold storage wallets and the chain of events in the blockchain? And can you point me to how he answered to that question i cannot find within your article? Or am i to interpret something you said as in you having asked him this directly? Seriously? Let me hit copy paste-- these were the questions I asked roughly: Where are the coins? Do you have them? Can you provide the exact status? People want and need clarity, can you explain? Etc Stop trying to be a hard guy internet lawyer, it's unproductive. I did not use the exact wording you used of asking for the Blockchain evidence. You seem to be missing and not understanding that until LAST NIGHT -- I thought he had the coins and that the leaked documents were phony. I am in Abu Dhabi -- between evening my time and now no, I have not talked to Mark, I have no reason to believe he will talk to me and I sent him 2-3 emails asking what is going on and for clarity. *turns off the interrogation lamp* Alright... i am done for today. You are free to go, but don't leave the city. |
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Like I said, I asked MANY times over the last week by email etc: Where are the coins? Do you have them? Can you provide the exact status? People want and need clarity, can you explain?
sry, but i must be blind, cause i missed that part of your article. Can you please point to me where you asked mark directly where the coins went to exactly as in showing you the cold storage wallets and the chain of events in the blockchain? And can you point me to how he answered to that question i cannot find within your article? Or am i to interpret something you said as in you having asked him this directly? |
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hmmm, no special relationship i see....
you told him to step out and all that, offered him financial help. They provided you with financial statements and all this stuff,
but you are not able to ask him a simple question..
sounds legit
Umm yeah it does. Think about it. Mark and Gox dealt with hundreds of people I am sure. Them communicating with me on this does not bind them to me for life, I have no special phone that can force people to answer. I never even communicated with them once in my life until 16 days ago or so. Do you really think that because someone communicates with someone that it always means they will forever? Especially in a case like this with one of the most high profile and bafflingly non-transparent events in recent history? You really think Mark is sitting there saying "Gee, people want to kill me, a million account holders are after me, no one even knows if a half billion dollars is missing or whose control it's under and I've been totally and completely opaque and secretive and unclear about the whole thing, every reporter on earth is calling me and people are stalking me....I know what I'll do! I'll call that guy Bruce who I never heard of in my life until two weeks ago and I'll tell him everything and clear this whole thing up because otherwise Jeronimus on the chat board will be scratching his head!" Seriously it's amazing how fast and loose some people on boards like this jump to making ridiculous statements questioning someone's very character and reliability without the tiniest amount of thinking going in to their statement. See, this is exactly what puzzles me. You seem well articulated and smart, and it is not about if or not Karpeles WOULD HAVE answered you, but why you did not ask at all. At the same time, you were keen enough to tell him to step out of his position when as you say this was the first time you met him. You can be all defensive you want, but i am not buying this. |
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You have no idea what you are talking about.
1, If I knew MTGOX was going to go bankrupt, why would I offer to buy MTGOX BTC? (Because I didn't know at that time)
2, I haven't made a single bitcoin trade on any exchange since early January, and luckily was too busy with my other stuff to buy even a single mtgox-BTC.
You only know about 25% of what really went on.
Go troll someone else.
Why don't you tell us the other 75% then since you pretend to know it... how about you call mark and ask him for the cold storage wallet addresses the exchange had filled up before the supposed theft, so we can track down where the coins went to? You seem to have had very close contact to him... why not just call him and ask for this info? |
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I don't have special access or relationship with him....if I did I drag him by the collar and get him to give some answers.
When the Bitcoin withdrawals were halted I contacted Mark and offered capital and help to fix the exchange.
At the time I assumed it was only a technical and management challenge and the conversation with Gonzague and Mark didn't indicate anything other than that.
They provided me with financial statements and I talked over the need for Mark to step aside and a real and professional management team to step in and fix the PR issues, hmmm, no special relationship i see.... you told him to step out and all that, offered him financial help. They provided you with financial statements and all this stuff, but you are not able to ask him a simple question.. sounds legit |
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You should have asked him for the cold storage addresses the exchange had before it got robbed, so we can follow the trace from there. See when exactly it happened etc...
Why didn't you?
If we had proceeded with discussion end then clearly before any contract was made and certainly any ownership or money changed plans we absolutely positively without question would have made him very clearly show the addresses and control and prove it. no, i mean... why don't you just call him on the phone and ask him which the cold storage btc addresses were, since you seem to have the means to contact him and you pretend to be concerned about peoples' lost coins. It would be worth a shot, wouldn't it, if you were really that concerned. I doubt such a question would step on anyone's toes unless he has something to hide. It's not like anyone can rob the cold storage wallets just by knowing the public addresses. edit: (we can see all addresses on the rich list anyway, we just don't know exactly which are related to gox) I can also not see how the US gov if they put him under a gag order would have any issue with him revealing the former cold storage wallets before the supposed theft occurred. Why would they? |
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You should have asked him for the cold storage addresses the exchange had before it got robbed, so we can follow the trace from there. See when exactly it happened etc...
Why didn't you?
How could a gag order possibly prevent him from showing us the cold storage wallet addresses the coins got stolen from? There seems no plausible reason for this.
Name a plausible reason why a gag order would prevent him from doing this please.
edit: This is what makes me wonder even more, how is it possible people close to him come up with well written articles, suggesting they are not idiots, yet they seem to forget to ask the most straightforward questions....
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I think you have shown how evidence can be used to shape a case, however to be fair to all parties the forensics really must start at the beginning and go where it leads, my guess it many interesting things will be found.
Based on what you found Mt Cox will have to account for those transactions -- they may all be legit, all illegit, or some mixture the point is we know where they came from and MG must make an accounting. Whatever he can't account for must be assumed that he has control over.
I think the main point is, if those addresses could in any way be linked to MtGox, then the coins cannot be stolen. No thief would be dumb enough to sell all coins in one big chunk to a single entity that is also so incredibly stupid to keep the coins as one single chunk in one address stored. If the above addresses are in any way linked to gox, then the coins are retrievable. |
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There was some irc chat long ago, where Karpeles sent around 424k BTC to a particular address as in to prove that the exchange holds enough funds. The address was this here 424k proof transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/3a1b9e330d32fef1ee42f8e86420d2be978bbe0dc5862f17da9027cf9e11f8c4 424k 06/23/2011 connected to this address are following addresses 50k 1P3S1grZYmcqYDuaEDVDYobJ5Fx85E9fE9 first input: 11/16/2011 05:59:08 40k 1cXNTyXj4xPGopfYZNY5xfSM1EPJJvBZV first input: 11/16/2011 05:59:08 40k 12HddUDLhRP2F8JjpKYeKaDxxt5wUvx5nq first input: 11/16/2011 05:38:46 40k 16Ls6azc76ixc9Ny7AB5ZPPq6oiEL9XwXy first input: 11/16/2011 05:38:46 30k 1MyGwFAJjVtB5rGJa32M6Yh46cGirUta1K first input: 11/16/2011 05:45:03 Unfortunately i fail to understand the blockchain.info chain of events completely, as there are some addresses which received less funds than they seemingly sent out. you will notice that all of those addresses contain the bitcons still, AND all of those addresses have zero digits BEFORE the dot(sub the front digit of course). they are exactly 50000.whatever, 40000.whatever and so on... if you head over to http://bitcoinrichlist.com/top100 you will be able to find similar addresses with 40k, 30k, 20k, 10k etc one example being this Nr 24, 25, 26 in the rich list are 40k with all digits in front of the dot are zero, AS WELL as one digit after the DOT. There is one more 40k which has ALL digits in front of the dot zero, but not the digit AFTER the dot. This would be this one http://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/14j6jLececs66ZQ8ew6vTFNiEn2NupacWJ?charttype=balanceThere is only 1 30k address which is already included in the list, showing this pattern, but there are two 20k addresses being at 45 and 46 in the rich list position, having all zeros after the "2" digit http://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/15CVfJUC1LKn1GKZx6RM5UMbFfnTd8vTT4?charttype=balancehttp://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/13ssxUjmQqemuiBfJSBsr7gFX7UWU7uXNK?charttype=balanceat 15k we have http://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/1LDWDufjU5ATbozDZY3uChb7oPAbDaiB7K?charttype=balancehttp://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/12WFth5HabiVrcj5waHtDP1b7gXSQPuDPz?charttype=balancehttp://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/1Fd2RVn8Ha6K6qevPFgPLneJn8VNaLPGW2?charttype=balanceat 10k we have http://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/1MeCzxxB8eDd17DaocFLQaQtH8seVjNM67?charttype=balancehttp://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/1Gg9GGQWmRk1pp4vNkMqLaEiPVNdiNvz7E?charttype=balancehttp://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/19PPeuu4jPjqtefSQ2FDgKmNJ88Z5wiuJt?charttype=balancehttp://bitcoinrichlist.com/address/15jdxjFhXUsp2xuycmKnjw8yk1WsVon69c?charttype=balance.... many more. The 10k addresses that follow this pattern are numerous going from 84-113 , meaning 30* 10k = 300k coins 194-235 5k deposits with same pattern 42*5k = 210k So we would have 1x 50k 4x 40k (one of which does not follow the exact pattern as the other 3) 1x 30k 2x 20k 3x 15k 30x 10k 42x 5k we get a total of 835k BTC. Not all of those addresses are owned by MtGox for sure, in fact, maybe none of those are owned by Gox. It's highly speculative if those BTC are part of the lost 750k especially since i cannot understand the blockchain chain of events well enough to explain certain transactions from addresses that seem to have less in than they transact out. |
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I owe them 10 LTCs apparently, which I don't intend to repay. that makes you a thief... |
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if he was trying to run with the money, wouldn't he have simply lied and told people the BTC is there still?
The US gov having confiscated and locked down his cold storage and pushed him under a gag order makes ever more sense now. Of course, this is just speculation.
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So we knew the owner of MtGox and his company's location exactly with all addresses etc.
Did that stop Karpeles from goxxxing us?
No.
Most likely, it certainly did not stop the US gov from pressuring Mark to succumb and hand over the BTC, then later desperately operating a fractional reserve, doing all kinds of shady things to get back some funds so the fractional reserve has enough of a fraction to keep operating.
Bitstamp we also know a few bits of the CEO and the location. But it did not stop them from freezing withdrawals some time ago, leaving everyone hanging in there without additional info.
Remember when the bitstamp price shoot over MtGox price for some time? Yep... that was exactly back then. Just like MtGox delaying withdrawals having an effect on the BTC price on gox, so did the maneuver Stamp pulled have an effect on the BTC price on Stamp, to the point where people trusted goxBTC/USD more than stampBTC/USD
Shortly after that, stamp pulled another two maneuvers, where the price would crash down, their service being unavailable to sell.
Again shortly after, when the price would rocket back up, they AGAIN had their service unavailable.
They got people to panic sell once they reopened, and later when it shoot up again, they got them to panic buy, after not allowing them to sell at the top, neither buy at the bottom, as they simply closed the service, most likely just pretending it was a DDoS
This to me screams manipulation.
If BTC-e can stand up working under DDoS, why cannot bistamp which has even more funds/volume?
So what do we learn of the gox?
In the bitcoin world, where any exchange at any time can claim they got "hacked" or some criminal somehow got hold of their keys to the cold storage, having the info of the owners + location of the exchange, won't protect you from them dry looting you.
It certainly won't protect the exchange from the US gov or other gov dry looting it.
So what exactly does protect us?
The only thing that protects us is the exchanges making way more money having their business run perfectly long term, than just running with the money.
This was in particular true for gox which had 80-90% of the market back then and has ever since looked like they are trying to ruin their own business deliberately.
This can only mean two things. Either the US gov stole their coins or they were paid assassins to harm BTC or a mix of the two.
If the exchanges wanted to make something on top, they could abuse the exchange powers and trade on their own behalf at zero fees or do some shady arbitrage by conspiring with another exchange or creating a second exchange they would pretend they are not related to.
So there is basically ZERO motive for the exchange to run with your money as they can extract way more of you using other means, including just operating the exchange in a honorable way.
BTC-e is swimming in money and bitcoins with very high volumes in the past. They certainly made back all the bitcoins and USD stored on the exchange already twice.
Why would they want to run with the money when they can profit much more from just operating the exchange properly?
The only reason we might lose our deposits would be for some governments to track them and shut them down which is what could happen to any other exchange as well. In fact, it is more likely to happen to any other exchange rather than btc-e as they can reopen being anonymous, while others will be shut for good.
edit: OR, as i mentioned above, the operators being motivated to harm BTC.
Satoshi nakamoto decided to remain anonymous for good reasons as well, not because he was shy of the public.
Is any exchange 100% safe?
NO exchange is 100% safe.
Especially not since no exchange EXCEPT btc-e has made a clear statement that they are NOT operating a fractional reserve and that all funds deposited in the exchange are fully backed up by real BTC/USD.
No audits made yet, even though audits won't protect us from what Karpeles pulled as they can simply claim they were hacked or scammed or lost their key or US gov took em and they are not allowed to talk etc.
The audits if frequent however, will certainly make it harder to pull such stunts in a believable way.
The ONLY safe storage for your coins is a cold wallet you created offline and know how to safely extract funds of into your hot wallet you use to buy stuff with.
One of the best devices coming out to make this easy for average joe to handle is the TREZOR device (at least as long as they stay true to their specifications)
So is everyone having their BTC on an exchange an idiot?
No, they are not. The majority is well aware of the high risks, which however comes with high rewards too if you know what you are doing. It's a calculated risk, and many have already quadruplet their initial investment, allowing them to pull out the initial investment while having 3x the initial investment still on the exchange.
While they are not doing it for altruistic reasons, this actually helps BTC gain value, allowing people to quickly interchange their BTC for FIAT if they choose to, as well as other businesses that do not want to keep BTC only, as it is not as widely accepted at the moment as needed for such businesses to operate solely on BTC.
Even the speculation itself gives BTC value as people are interested in investing in BTC just for that gamble that also includes some social factor.
Without the speculators, noone would be able to interchange BTC for USD/EUR/etc. Holders certainly do not do exchanges. Simply investing and holding the BTC does not work if noone sells.
So the speculators do in fact help this ecosystem, even if it is greed that propels their actions in most cases.
The speculators are shoving their own grave however, since their doings help make BTC more widely accepted, and soon enough, no one will need to interchange BTC for FIAT anymore, the price stabilizing in the process and there not being enough profit to be made for speculators anymore.
The exchanges will then operate on their own behalf and do their own trades, as only at zero fees exchanging BTC/USD will grant some profits still.
to finalize...
So reading the above you understand why some risk takers that are important for the BTC ecosystem choose to put their money into less than safe exchanges.
The only thing those speculators can do, is to guesstimate the risks of the exchanges available to them. It certainly would not be a good thing if all speculators had their funds in just one exchange that could gox us.
There should be at least 5-10 medium to large sized exchanges to make sure that when one goes down, not everything is lost.
It turns out, it is a good thing that not everyone trusts the same exchange.
..the end
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