This is really a bad analogy.  I hate it when people aren't good at analogies but think they are.

This isn't like someone getting their order for some retail product, and another person getting a different retail product (lets say two different next gen Apple Ipads), and one of them breaks for 1 customer therefore they purposefully send out an update that damages the other customer's product.  That would be a fitting real world application of your example and no, that would make absolutely no sense.

Besides being a person who consistently defends BFL no matter WHAT they do, you also fail to see the whole picture of things and let your trolling cloud your better judgment.  (yeah yeah.. we know.. your excuse is that you like to troll trolls, but you don't troll ALL trolls, you just troll the people who troll BFL threads.  Your excuse is ridiculous at this point until we see you troll the people who also troll BFL haters.) 

The big picture here is that the longer it takes to receive, there are two factors at work.  The longer it takes for one customer to make a better profit or ROI AND as more people receive asic devices, the more the difficulty goes up which means they make even less the longer it takes.

Ex.  Say for instance, they start up some serious production of Jalapenos.  Let's say within 1 month they are able to assemble and ship out 2000 jalapenos from orders.  Let's also say for this theoretical example, that it takes them 2 more months to start sending out Little Singles, Singles, and Mini-rigs.  That means there are 4000 jalapeno's out in the wild by the time these other devices are even shipped.  Let's also say that some of these jalapeno orders were made in January 2013 because they(BFL) are knocking out their queue.  That means people who ordered 6 months earlier, for devices that are worth 10 times the price, and 10 times the performance, are watching $2,413,904 a MONTH (current difficulty) being made by these 4000 jalapenos (even averaged 5GH/s to be a conservative hash rate) and they still have not received their device. 

Lets get even more granular.  I have August orders, but I have a buddy with a July order of 1 single @ 60GH/s.  Let's also say someone else has a July order for 4 jalapeno's.  Let's say he receives them next week, and my buddy's Single order doesn't get to him until August.  That means this jalapeno customer will make about 2500$ by the time a Single shows up on the other customer's doorstep.  I would personally feel slighted if I spent more money ~$1300 for a Single vs ~$700 for 4 jalapenos, and made less money.  These are people that spent MORE MONEY to fund a company's project.  These are people who made MORE of a risk.  By the time the Single order comes, the difficulty could easily double.  And the reason it doubled?  Because 20 TERAHASH has been added to the network due to all of these jalapenos, not including Asic Miner, Avalon chips, and maybe even BFL chips coming to the market. 

So seriously?  You cannot see that?  Anyone who says people shouldn't be disappointed by this arrangement is just trolling for trolling sakes.  Both camps have legitimate complaints and people who cannot come to grips with that are living in fantasy land.

If you want to be a "BitcoinTalk Forum Troll Avenger" you have to put in the work and not be selective.

Oh lord.. you're the last person (or maybe 2nd or 3rd to last person) that I would want to defend me.  You have the same problem as "those" people, it's just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

EXACTLY.  I would put a V12 in a room in my house and feed it gas daily if it mined enough.  Oil leaks, exhaust and all.

Both of these comments are comparing apples to oranges..

This situation is more like "When your meth addicted friends tells you on a monthly basis that he "is clean now" and "I'm never going to touch that stuff again".  It may be true at the time... and it may be his/her intention.  But after the 4th, 5th, 20th time they do it, you just nod your head and say "Good for you" all the while not really believing that this will be the reality.  

..The people who did not order BFL, or cancelled their orders are the people who don't really have a relationship with that person, and say in a very blunt way "whatever, you'll fall off the wagon soon enough", and even at times would rather see them fail so they won't have to deal with seeing them later on.  The people who do have orders with BFL are like the friends or family of that person.  They don't really believe it will happen, or believe in the timing, but only hope that one day what they say comes true.

I personally think the company doesn't really plan for the setbacks, and when given an expectation by a vendor (say 1-2 weeks), they tell their customer base "1 WEEK!".  By now it is at the 7-8 month mark, but they are still going.  The way I figure it is, if the company was a true scam, they would have taken the money already and moved on to a new scam.  This is beyond the meaning of "long con".  The only thing that will tell is time.  I could see a possibility that they take too long, and only a handful of people getting these devices while they are still profitable.  That would be my personal opinion of a "worst case scenario".  At that point either they can get back several returns until they file bankruptcy, and at that point, everyone looses their money that still have not received their product.  Best case scenario is within the next 2 weeks they get anywhere CLOSE to shipping out to their reported amount of 400 per day.  I have this sneaking suspicion that the reality will probably somewhere in between.

So the recap to this is..

OP decided to post 9 DAYS after he attempted to use the refund option on the BFL site that it did not work.  Then instead of doing anything different, repeated the exact same process 2 days before he posted this thread and states he could not find an email address or any other way to contact them.  Then doesn't post back into his own thread until 5 days later (which I assume he finally got their email address?  ...or he just waited for the website refund option to be responded to).  He then responds back to them either on the 28th or the 29th and gets his money back on the 29th.
If I wanted my money back "that" bad (who wouldn't) I wouldn't have gone through the process of creating a new thread to complain about it, I would have explored alternative contact options (email, telephone).  That only took less than 10 seconds for me when I just checked their site.  I would not have just repeated the refund process over again  on their website if I suspected as being broken..    I DEFINITELY wouldn't have waited 9 days to find their email or call their number.

didn't Ben Franklin say something about insanity being when you do the same thing and expect different results?

Not that I am saying it should take 2 weeks to get a refund back, but if I did not receive a response back from someone with 100's or 1000's of my money, I would not sit there and basically do nothing.  The telephone number is on their front page and their email contact is plainly available on their FAQ and all over their support forum.  If you searched bitcointalk OR their forums you would easily find out that most people are having troubles getting a response back when cancelling through the website, but are getting back responses pretty quickly via email.  

..it is just lame when someone decides to actually waste more time creating a thread and kind of "misleading" people with the synopsis than it would to search for 1 minute longer.  Then the thread devolves into the typical BFL trolls saying it's a Ponzi scheme, and the BFL fanboys (who somehow can't acknowledge that there are some seriously messed up things going on with that company), arguing back and forth.  Your typical thread derailment.

When I look at the synopsis in the last post, I would have taken it as "BFL didn't respond to this guy for 15 FREAKIN DAYS!!!  WATCH OUT PEOPLE!!  BFL IS TAKING 2 WEEKS OR LONGER TO REFUND MONEY"  

..when it should reflect "It took 15 days for BFL to refund my money because I assumed the original request went through fine, and instead of calling them or emailing them after a couple of days, I waited 7 days and only tried to submit the same form ONCE AGAIN, and wait another 2 to complain about it on a forum instead of calling or emailing.  Then didn't respond to my thread for 5 days.. only to say they contacted me back and within that day they refunded the money."  

29 May 2013 - ASIC Update



29 May 2013 - ASIC Update

 Almost there... I'm attaching a picture of our test board. We've almost got the firmware finalized, as you can see, we've brought power usage down quite a bit. This is a 50 GH/s unit with unbinned chips (meaning the chips were randomly selected, so some of the chips have non-functional engines. What this means is the unit can perform faster if you use binned chips with known good engines).

 I think the picture speaks for itself, and I apologize for the quality... just took a quick snap while we were working. However, you can see that our power usage is under 5w/GH/s. This should apply across all product lines. I plan on testing out the short boards tomorrow. We should be getting in many of the reworked short boards tomorrow as well as some long boards. Next week, we expect a much larger shipment of both long and short boards to arrive (possibly even this Saturday, but that's still up in the air.)

 In any event, we should have the firmware finalized by tomorrow night or Friday at the latest and ready to go.

_______________________________________

The picture included is of the 50GH miner mining at 52GH.  If anyone wants to post that pic feel free.

..it is spelled "star" oh great troller of the trolling trolls...  I bet you haven't eaten at a "4 Start" restaurant either...

next time your trolling gets so thin that you have to resort to calling people out for spelling mistakes.. make sure to keep your posts clear of the same stupid mistakes.

If you and wrenchmonkey ceased to be on this forum, it would make it much easier to find things

This thread is a catastrophe so I figure going off topic would not be a big deal, but I think you don't understand Michelin ratings.  A 3 star Michelin rating on a restaurant means that restaurant is good enough to say "it is worth traveling to that specific country just to eat there".  There are only like 10-15 of them in the US.  Try making a reservation at a place like Jiro Ono and just "go eat".  You can't.  They are most likely booked until mid 2014.

a little more on topic.. I think the majority of you on either side of this are a bunch of idiots.  With my current ignore list this thread turns into a big blank page.  I guess I thought there would be "some" sort of information on recent developments but with all of the trolls (both sides), this thread should be closed.

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Sorry, bud, you're wrong, but right at the same time somehow.

Your stats are not real stats.  For every person tired of seeing BFL rants, 5 other are now informed.. now that may be true.  but you continued to say "by way of these shitstorms" which falsifies the whole thing.  When someone rants about BFL, the newbies thinking about a preorder and doing their due diligence will see it, and will become informed.  Everyone is allowed to rant.  Hell I see no reason not to rant from time to time.  Look who is their Director of communications.  But seeing it from the same 10 people in 20 different threads (made up stats) is doing one of two things:

1.  This means a person researching this possible purchase will be bombarded with 200 rants from 10 people.  It looses its effectiveness.  Silly childish rants with silly photoshops from the same people over and over is not doing anyone any good. 

2.  It also means that the people who are "shitstorming" their BFL hate feel like they HAVE to pound it in someone's head in order for them to get the picture?  Pretty much means that they think these people not intelligent enough, and makes this forum look like shit.  This is absolutely not what you want which brings me to your next point.


That is certainly 1 of the purposes of a forum and if it is to defend having an occasional rant about BFL then you are 100% right, but what is not happening is a collective response.  It is the same small handful of people over and over spouting off their absolute HATRED for BFL and passing it off as trying to be informative.  People should be spouting off their hatred of Josh first and foremost.  He is the one who has come on here and basically abused people.  The statement from smoothie right next to your post is a prime example.


Absolutely not the kind of statement that do any good to new people.  If this guy would have said "Until BFL fulfills all orders up to this point, I will keep letting people know what has happened in the last 10 months and how they should think twice before gambling their money away."  THAT would have sounded like a reasonable comment.  But even if he has reasonable comments, out of the 16 posts in the past 6 pages by him , he has "warned" people 14 times.  14 times.  It doesn't matter HOW reasonable your statements are, if someone has to read it 14 times it is no longer reasonable.  That is not anywhere CLOSE to "helping people out" and more on the lines of basically being EXACTLY like Josh.  Just constantly poking a stick into people and spouting off hate. 

People who do this are the self centered ones.  Even worse that they claim they are just helping the people.  Say your piece and move one. 

No sir.. you are misreading my post.  You even quoted it.  I have a Sept order, and I am keeping my order.  The point of the statement was to say, that people who preordered took a gamble... or a risk.  It is still a calculated risk, just like any other gamble, but it IS a risk.  People don't need to see 1 person saying something a dozen times.   That doesn't help anyone.  In fact, when 1 person says something 12 times, it dilutes the effectiveness and makes them look like a whiney troll.  If 12 people say it one time, it seems more legit and carries weight.  People considering a preorder need to see it, but they SHOULD be doing their homework when making such a purchase.  If they do even 30 minutes of looking up BFL in this forum they will easily find the info they are looking for even without certain people repeating themselves over and over and over.  More specifically the people who act like a pompous jerk about it. Hell, one of the titles in the forum is "BFL fucks us over again." Anyone who does not do their due diligence before spending this type of money on a preorder is either an idiot, or that damn rich that they don't care about the money.

As far as me.. I still certainly have hope.  People call me and others like me an idiot, but I did my homework.  I knew when I put in my order that BFL would NEVER ship on time (October).  I certainly didn't foresee them taking a whole year but what can you do?  In fact, I feel there is a VERY good possibility we will still see our orders on our doorsteps.  Now I'd say I'm 50/50 on whether or not that will be in the next month or two.  But like I said... that is the gamble.  Put all your chips in one company and not the other is always a risk.  If I would have had the cash, I would have invested in BFL and Avalon batch#1. 

And no.. people with twelve posts aren't newbies.  They just post less.  Been reading this forum daily since I got into bitcoining which was about this time last year.

Well don't I feel like an idiot.  My bad, I forgot that P2Pool allows all the different cryptocurrencies.  I am mining LTC and seems that everyone else is talking about BTC.  I followed this link directly from a Litecoin pool comparison chart.

...carry on

Oh man... you are such a WIZARD and obviously WAY smarter than about 99% of the people... IN THE WORLD. 

now that I am done with the sarcasm, I'd say "No shit Sherlock".  I am someone with a Sept 1st order.. and I'll still be keeping my order.  Anyone who ordered that early took a gamble.  If people are so stupid that they need someone like YOU to tell them that then this community is full of idiots.  Unless a company has stock in hand, and is known to be shipping the product with no issues, and you ORDER from said company, you are taking a gamble.  People who ordered batch 1 of Avalon, were taking just as big of a gamble.  You choose your horse, then you ride it out.  Avalon won.. and those people picked the right horse, but people shouldn't be such pompous jerks to say "BFL is a scam.. get a refund!".  You don't have to say anything a DOZEN times.. that's 11 too many.  Just say what you want once, then let it play out.  The second that BFL's shops close down, don't return money, and all the people responsible move to South America... you can say "I told you so."  You have to be a supertroll to say "I told you so" to something that hasn't happened yet.

What happens if BFL ships (In greater quantity) and people receive their devices and gain any kind of profit?  I assume people like you will just create some other reason why they were still right... right?  If we are taking bets on the future, I'd bet you won't say a word about being wrong if it ends up that BFL actually becomes some sort of success. 

..but then again.. keep talking people out of their preorders.  Hopefully that means I'll skip ahead of line by a little bit.  If they don't ship.. oh well.  It would suck, but people shouldn't be gambling with money they can't afford to lose.

Sorry if this has been explained before but many people in the past couple of pages have been saying they are getting 200..400..600MHash/s.  Is that correct?  I thought mining with a single video card would be producing KHash/s and not MHash/s like bitcoin.

Currently I have:

AMD 7970: ~600KHash/s
AMD 7870: ~350KHash/s
AMD 5870: ~350KHash/s.

Technically I am running ~1.3MHash/s now.. so I doubt someone with a AMD 7770 is getting 200MHash/s but maybe I am totally missing out.  Moved from bitcoin mining to Litecoin yesterday.  Started with notroll pool but realized they have major issues paying out but in less than a day I got 2 LTC which seems about right.

..and of course after checking the litecoin calculator I come up with ~470 LTC a day if you ran 200MHash/s.. so I'm 99.9999% sure everyone else is misspeaking. 

No.. in fact they were actually nice enough to even come talk to a regular "Joe Shmoe" customer.  Apparently you don't understand what type of business this is.. OR your post was meant to be serious and if that was the case then yes, businesses WOULD be better off without a "very small percent" of customers.  Specifically the ones that drop by unannounced only to ask the same old shit that is typically asked in the forums DAY IN AND DAY OUT.  I don't see how people don't understand this concept.  Just because you are a customer, that has concerns, the SAME concerns every other customer has, and just because you drove some special distance, to see a person on the inside of BFL..WITHOUT an appointment.. doesn't mean they even have to talk to you.  What a monumental level of entitlement to have..

Try going to any other hardware manufacturer.. maybe even 3DFX when they were still around, or AMD, and try to just waltz on in and have an impromptu meeting with anyone and see how far you get.  And before anyone even posts "b-b-b-but AMD doesn't have a product that they have delayed for x months and blah blah" it doesn't matter.  They are still a company.. a company that has absolutely NO customer interfacing capabilities in their physical location, yet someone actually came out and spent ANY amount of time with this guy.  I'm pretty impressed...  some people just have this level of entitlement that just reeks of "I'm an only child and got EVERYTHING I asked for."

Now what I am NOT impressed with is them as a company...period.  Anyone who lets their "Director of communications" get on ANY forum (regardless if he uses his "official" BFL name or not, and start picking fights with EVERY naysayer like a little kid, calling names, instigating, is ridiculous.  There are some supreme dickheads on bitcointalk, but when your "Director of Communications" is in the top 5, that's bad..REALLY bad.  That specific position should be able to do what "cops" do.  Get cursed at, reamed on a daily basis by complete jerks and be as nice as can be to people.  

Can we possibly vote this as the dumbest thread posted in the past 3 months?  I mean, there has been a major amount of shitbags posting in the past 3 months, but this guy takes the cake.. it is obviously a troll post.

IF he purchased a Avalon in first batch, he would have bought it at a time where bitcoins were 15$ a pop.  Complaining about $50 or $500 bitcoins is something a real miner wouldn't do.  Doesn't matter if he was drunk or not.  People in the real world just don't do this.

If you want to prove it is not a joke, post a pic of the Avalon you hate so much.  Then people will get off your ass.  Don't just post a pic of any old Avalon, that trick won't work.  Just post a pic of the Avalon and a post-it note with your tag "big pete".


..but you won't. 

^Very much like the mixture of these two

Anyone who thinks BFL is cheating people for doing this looks pretty stupid.  The issue is not arguable.  The facts are:

1.  At the time of ordering (at least on my order in September 2012, and everyone after), the prices were in USD.  You had an option TO PAY in bitcoins, but that price was ALWAY in USD.  They sold their product in USD.. that is not arguable.

2.  As you have the option to pay in bitcoins, that price was never a fixed one.  You had to pay the current USD price in bitcoins and it always changed.  3 months ago in January, bitcoins were at the 13$ mark or so.  When you ordered, if you paid in bitcoins you had to pay the market price of USD.  It means you would have had to pay about 100 bitcoins at the time for a Single.  Last month, when bitcoins were at nearing 100$, if you ordered a Single, you would have had to pay about 50.  No one denied this or brought it up for debate since the products started selling last year.

3.  If the price of bitcoins would have gone down to 4$ a bitcoin, would a person who paid "13$ a bitcoin" price be expected to only get 100 bitcoins back at 4$ a bitcoin?  This is what is making so many people look like fools.  Turn the scenario around and you actually see a clear picture.  It is safe to say EVERYONE would be complaining (and may be suing) about receiving 400$ worth of bitcoins back for something they spent 1300$ worth of bitcoins for

So why was no one bitching at them for charging someone 58 bitcoins one month for a Single, and a couple of weeks later charging someone else 27 bitcoins?  It is an easy answer.  The people with even half a brain understand this.  It is the people with such a hatred for BFL that they go to the ends of the earth finding every little thing to bitch about that they lose their minds. Many of those people seem to be people who have never ordered a product in the first place. 

Does it suck that the people who DID order do not have their bitcoins to invest and make more off of?  Of course, but THEY chose to do that.  Lots of them actually used purchased bitcoins,  or paid right from paypal, so they could have had that USD to put in an account, play the stock market, flip a house, or any other type of investments.  It's not just people who paid in bitcoins, but people ho paid in general and could have had that money to make more money.  It always sucks.  If you want to complain, complain about that. 

Anyone who thought they would get refunded in bitcoins is a damn fool.  Let me play out another scenario assuming they WOULD return in bitcoins...

I pay 260 bitcoins last year for a single. I wait till bitcoins make a MAJOR jump in price and then issue a refund.  Hell, I could order 20 devices knowing I would never let them ship, and then issue a refund whenever it is profitable for me.


For all the BFL haters.. it's not like I don't agree, but put your damn thinking caps on though.  Go back to complaining that they haven't shipped, or that they STILL could be scam.  It's old, tired, but still a legitimate problem.  Every time I see one of the typical trolls complaining about not getting paid back in original bitcoins, they look desperate and grasping at straws..
Does it suck that

Fact: You have been informed already that Josh/BFL has agreed that they lost the bet and will be donating 1000BTC to a charity.. multiple times

...you are beyond the definition of Ultra-troll.  I always thought BFL made a SUPER stupid mistake by hiring a little immature brat like Josh to be the frontman to their operation here.. but you are certainly the very essence of the word "troll".  How people just let you go on and on and on with your bullshit is beyond me.   It's really not hard to make BFL look stupid.. and when you try SOOOO damn hard it just makes you look like a jackass.  They should temp-ban all the people who's ignore button is as colorful as yours.

whoa whoa whoa.. apparently you are the "American" being so "sue happy"  That's how low lives get their money in America.. they sue everyone they can looking for that pay day.