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Please share your emails + language in a public gist.
This was my e-mail to fraud@paypal.com : Hi,
I used PayPal to place a pre-order with Butterfly Labs on xx-xx-xx for $xxx.xx.
This order has still not been filled.
I politely requested a refund on xx-xx-xx and was declined on xx-xx-xx.
Today I filed Dispute #PP-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx. This dispute was closed for being outside the 45-day window.
The seller has violated your terms of service which clearly state that the seller "Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase".
The seller is continuing to accept pre-orders for a product that they can not ship within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, they do not even pretend to be honoring your 20-day limit.
I have been a PayPal customer for x years. While I realize that this payment is beyond the 45-day limit, I believe PayPal should honor my request for a refund as the seller is still using PayPal to receive pre-order payments in a manner that clearly violates your terms of service.
Many people may be harmed financially by this seller if PayPal doesn't step in.
Regards,
Me |
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FWIW, there was one thing in this ordeal that really rubbed me the wrong way...
When Bruce from BFL called, he made the "under review" status sound like a punishment for my complaining to PayPal. He seemed surprised that I didn't care about being taken out of the queue. I think that was the only card they had.
Again, don't take this lying down. If you want your money back, take it.
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Did you tell Paypal that alot of Paypal buyers want refund from BFL?
The PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor and I spoke for a good while. I can't recall everything that was said, but I hung up with the impression that he knew quite a bit about BFL already. I hammered home the points that BFL had violated the ToS, and that a "sale" isn't a sale unless a product is delivered. PayPal loses their fees when a payment is reversed, so they are not motivated to jump in just because someone asks them to. They do however, appear to succumb to the "squeaky wheel" strategy. If you want your money back, be a stubborn pain in the ass. That's what worked for me. I can only speculate as to what might happen if lots of BFL "customers" follow the route that I took.  |
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I recently received a full refund from BFL for an order I placed several months ago. I know, I know, BFL claims that "all sales are final". Well, there's "final", and then there's "final"... It took a month, but here's what worked for me: - I sent an email to office@butterflylabs.com in which I politely requested a refund.
- About a week later, I received a reply from BFL denying my request.
- I filed a dispute with PayPal. In this dispute I noted that BFL failed to deliver, denied my refund request, and violated PayPal's Terms of Service for pre-order sales.
- PayPal closed my dispute the same day, stating that I was outside the 45-day window.
- I called PayPal's customer service and complained about my dispute being closed, and explained to PayPal exactly how BFL is violating the ToS.
- I sent an email to fraud@paypal.com in which I listed my transaction and dispute number, and explained how BFL is violating the ToS.
- A few days later, a PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor called me on the phone. He had already spoken to BFL and assured me that BFL would be contacting me. I told him that I just wanted a refund, and explained to him how BFL is violating the ToS.
- I waited a week to give BFL plenty of time to contact me. They didn't.
- I emailed the PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor and told him that BFL had not contacted me. He seemed shocked. I wasn't. He told me that PayPal could take action against BFL if necessary.
- The PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor escalated my dispute to the next level (whatever that is). He told me that someone else would call.
- The next day I received a call from a guy named Bruce at BFL. He told me that since I had complained to PayPal, BFL was placing my order "under review" and taking it out of the queue. From his tone, I got the impression that Bruce thought this would bother me. I told him that I didn't need a review, I just wanted my money back. He wouldn't give me a firm answer and just kept repeating that they were placing my order "under review" and taking it out of the queue. I even asked if this review would take a day, week, month, or year. No answer, just the same "under review" statement.
- Within 5 minutes of BFL's call, an Account Representative from PayPal called. I told her about the strange conversation with Bruce. She said that she would contact BFL again.
- My payment to BFL was refunded to my PayPal account the next business day.
IMHO, this is the bottom line: BFL needs PayPal. If you want your money back, complain to PayPal and don't give up.
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It looks like nobody who ordered in 2013 will get their order this year, if ever - or get their investment back on their purchase...
I did. It took a month, but I successfully got a refund on my several-months-old order - even after BFL told me "no". |
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PayPal turned down my refund within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria."I contacted PayPal by phone and received the same response, even though I am a long-time account holder. PayPal did promise to contact BFL and ask them to ship my order--for whatever that's worth. My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales. I believe this is BFL's Achilles heel. BFL needs PayPal.FYI: fraud@paypal.comThe PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS. From PayPal's FAQ:
Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?
A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.
A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.
PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:
Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation). I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them. Let's keep the pressure on PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook. |
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Let's try and keep this thread on the first page for great justice
I see this thread has been moved into a dark corner of the basement. Why?  |
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It looks like we need to keep the pressure on PayPal, as that seems to be the only thing getting BFL to actually ship units. FYI: fraud@paypal.com |
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they can just ship you a box of fans real quick and then put you in warranty hell
True, and that will make for a great "unboxing" video. I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them. Everyone seems focused on lighting a fire under BFL. I say, light the fire under PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook. |
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My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.
Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit.
Would you (or anyone else who knows of this) please elaborate on the highlighted statement? From PayPal's FAQ:
Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?
A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.
A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.
PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:
Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation). The PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS. |
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...
Your next step would be to fill out the form at the FTC noting that you ordered a product X number of days ago and that BFL has still not shipped it to you. When you asked for a refund, BFL refused.
Maybe. I contacted PayPal by phone and received the same response, even though I am also a long-time account holder. PayPal did promise to contact BFL and ask them to ship my order--for whatever that's worth. My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales. I believe this is BFL's Achilles heel. BFL needs PayPal. Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit. |
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...
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
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PayPal turned me down within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria." |
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I also have a friend that wants in. Are we able to up our order/payment at this time?
since you've already gotten in and just want to up the order, i'm fine with it. same shipping info right? just pm me the confirmation of payment. I just upped mine from 2 to 3. E-mail and payment sent. |
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....Wish he wasn't using gmail. I feel like I just announced to the world what I'm doing.
I felt the same way, but I appreciate what he is doing. |
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Looking at the chart, I suspect if it breaks below 68 USD, then we're looking at trouble.
Actually we'll be looking at an opportunity.  |
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You should record video....
This is a must, even if you are denied entry. |
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I just had a source confirm who predicted....
My source just confirmed that the BTC exchange rate will rise, then fall, then rise, then fall.... |
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I like the noob limit....
I don't. I tend to read more than post though. |
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coinabul.com if you want to cash out in bullion.
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