BFL (BF Labs Inc; Butterfly Labs) officially refusing to refund their customers.

[sneef]

But that's the definition of a scam.  It isn't just: "take a bunch of money and disappear with it all."  

Lots of cons and frauds run with some getting return - maybe big return.  That's how they stay in business.  

It's called partial reinforcement scheduling.  If you want to keep 50 sheep at the fence, feed two some grain, then stay in sight of all of them, and they'll all stay, hoping they get theirs.

What you are describing is a Ponzi.
A scam is, most often, where everyone gets fucked.

BFL is certainly a Ponzi, and i suspect before too long they will pack up shop and move to Costa Rica, or the FTC will kick down the door and seize everything.

Either way, i feel like i got bent over the table.

[k9quaint]

But that's the definition of a scam.  It isn't just: "take a bunch of money and disappear with it all."  

Lots of cons and frauds run with some getting return - maybe big return.  That's how they stay in business.  

It's called partial reinforcement scheduling.  If you want to keep 50 sheep at the fence, feed two some grain, then stay in sight of all of them, and they'll all stay, hoping they get theirs.

What you are describing is a Ponzi.
A scam is, most often, where everyone gets fucked.

BFL is certainly a Ponzi, and i suspect before too long they will pack up shop and move to Costa Rica, or the FTC will kick down the door and seize everything.

Either way, i feel like i got bent over the table.

If you have ordered from BFL and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask BFL for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with BFL to get your refund.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Now what, playing the sentimental game? Want a tap on the back, good boy? wtf Larry the "afro-american"? Is that some special qualification?

I was only pointing out that Larry is an Afro-American. At the age of five he was severely beaten by his step-dad of which never served a single day behind bars for his actions.

In response to the rest of your post, the intent of my post was NOT to seek any sentimental recognition.

So, no, it's not some special qualification.

Care to play again?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

But that's the definition of a scam.  It isn't just: "take a bunch of money and disappear with it all."  

Lots of cons and frauds run with some getting return - maybe big return.  That's how they stay in business.  

It's called partial reinforcement scheduling.  If you want to keep 50 sheep at the fence, feed two some grain, then stay in sight of all of them, and they'll all stay, hoping they get theirs.

What you are describing is a Ponzi.
A scam is, most often, where everyone gets fucked.

BFL is certainly a Ponzi, and i suspect before too long they will pack up shop and move to Costa Rica, or the FTC will kick down the door and seize everything.

Either way, i feel like i got bent over the table.

If you have ordered from BFL and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask BFL for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with BFL to get your refund.

More people need to read this!

If you have ordered from BFL and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).

First ask BFL for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.

If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with BFL to get your refund.

[HellDiverUK]

Another guy, named Larry (an Afro-American), just started coming around to speaking again since being dramatized at a younger age

Dramatized?  TV play, movie, or stage show?

I think you meant traumatized.   

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Another guy, named Larry (an Afro-American), just started coming around to speaking again since being dramatized at a younger age

Dramatized?  TV play, movie, or stage show?

I think you meant traumatized.   

Josh was right! I'm losing it.

<In the voice of Josh>

The second time Bruno "The Drama Queen" has spoken a truism.

[JerimiahJohnson]

I placed my order with BFL over a year ago, at this point it just makes me laugh when I think about it, I guess I expect that some day it will show up but we are going on 13 months now...  we are past the point of ridiculous.

In my opinion, if you place an order with BFL now, your hardware will be useless by the time you get it (due to extremely high difficulty). There really is no point.

[vcsmith]

...
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
...

PayPal turned me down within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria."

[PuertoLibre]

I placed my order with BFL over a year ago, at this point it just makes me laugh when I think about it, I guess I expect that some day it will show up but we are going on 13 months now...  we are past the point of ridiculous.

In my opinion, if you place an order with BFL now, your hardware will be useless by the time you get it (due to extremely high difficulty). There really is no point.

You spent 1/50th of your life waiting for that BFL hardware. How does it feel compared to your Avalon purchase time?

[k9quaint]

...
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
...

PayPal turned me down within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria."

In light of your experience, your mileage may vary. It is important to try PayPal first because that is the easiest route to getting your money back.

Your next step would be to fill out the form at the FTC noting that you ordered a product X number of days ago and that BFL has still not shipped it to you. When you asked for a refund, BFL refused.

[vcsmith]

...

Your next step would be to fill out the form at the FTC noting that you ordered a product X number of days ago and that BFL has still not shipped it to you. When you asked for a refund, BFL refused.

Maybe. I contacted PayPal by phone and received the same response, even though I am also a long-time account holder.  PayPal did promise to contact BFL and ask them to ship my order--for whatever that's worth.

My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.  I believe this is BFL's Achilles heel.  BFL needs PayPal.

Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

How many individual FTC claims does it take before they open an internal investigation?

[Loredo]

My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.

Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit.

Would you (or anyone else who knows of this) please elaborate on the highlighted statement?  

[vcsmith]

My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.

Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit.

Would you (or anyone else who knows of this) please elaborate on the highlighted statement?  

From PayPal's FAQ:

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

    Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
    Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
    Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

The PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.

Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit.

Would you (or anyone else who knows of this) please elaborate on the highlighted statement?  

From PayPal's FAQ:

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

    Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
    Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
    Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

The PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS.

It seems to me that PayPal is breaking their ToS by allowing BFL to continue to use their services. I'm sure PayPal would not like to open themselves up to a lawsuit when one of BFL's miners catches fire and kills a baby.

[DPoS]

they can just ship you a box of fans real quick and then put you in warranty hell

[vcsmith]

they can just ship you a box of fans real quick and then put you in warranty hell

True, and that will make for a great "unboxing" video.  I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them.

Everyone seems focused on lighting a fire under BFL.  I say, light the fire under PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook.

[PuertoLibre]

they can just ship you a box of fans real quick and then put you in warranty hell

True, and that will make for a great "unboxing" video.  I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them.

Everyone seems focused on lighting a fire under BFL.  I say, light the fire under PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook.

I am with you, what did the fraud department say they would do next?

[dominicus]

PayPal isn't ignorant about BFL non-compliance with ToS.  They've been aware of the issue for months.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/137-first-most-boring-update.html#comment1600

Unclear if this was a one-time verification they requested, or if this is something they continue to "manage".

[vcsmith]

PayPal isn't ignorant about BFL non-compliance with ToS.  They've been aware of the issue for months.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/137-first-most-boring-update.html#comment1600

Unclear if this was a one-time verification they requested, or if this is something they continue to "manage".

It looks like we need to keep the pressure on PayPal, as that seems to be the only thing getting BFL to actually ship units.

FYI: fraud@paypal.com