Hum that does not embed them the way I see in some posts here.  Anybody?

What problem are you having with bfgminer specifically? Any error messages or screenshots you can include? The only thing I can think of is that you will need to install the Silicon Labs UART to USB driver in order to use bfgminer with Block Erupters.

What problem are you having with bfgminer specifically? Any error messages or screenshots you can include? The only thing I can think of is that you will need to install the Silicon Labs UART to USB driver in order to use bfgminer with Block Erupters.

I am working on finessing the RSI settings to resist buys on price slides, to buy as close as possible to price reversals.  I was going to post some screen caps... but am not seeing how to embed pictures...?

Thanks for the screen cap enki74, but what are you using for settings?  RSI signals?  At what threshold?

Don't answer if you are of the opinion that this type of information should be kept "secret".  Many feel they have the "secret formula, and are afraid if they share it too many people will learn it and it will not work anymore.

This position is not well thought out.  Trading has been around so long, there are no "secrets".  There are only informed decisions & strategies.  I learned everything I know from other people, and will in turn pass that to anyone who wants to learn.  We all learn from each other, and IMO it makes us all better traders; especially is a small community like this one (STB).

That said, I am currently testing the RSI signal generator.  I want it to buy/sell fast on sudden, pronounced movement (spike) but not necessarily on more gradual movement (trend).  I also want it to recover as soon as possible from an 'out of trade range' condition.  Toward that end, I am using RSI30 with 10% & 90% thresholds and the minimum drop settings allowed.  The bot is making decent trades with these settings, but as I learn to use it better, I hope to refine that.

I'v a question/remark about version 0.8 (latest)

I wanted the bot to sell all my bitcoins i had with the high/low bot and selected the all in option.
After a while the boundaries where reached and the trade was made. I got however stuck with 0.0073 BTC, for which no sell order was made.

A closes look showed me that not the complete amount of bitcoin a sell order was given for, but a portion was not sold, for which i assume the fee had to be paid off.
But either the calculation is wrong, or the fee is paid from the sales value, and no reservation should have been made for that (when trading manula on the btc-e, If i would sell all, i can sell all and fees are just subtracted from the sale earnings)

Is this bot behaviour done by design, or did i find a bug?

Oh thank God lol.  I was truly at a loss how to explain it differently.

Please do not be offended by my manner, I confess I am more a "numbers person" then a "people person".

With that basic fundamental out of the way, lets get back to the propose of this forum; Stephan's bot.

Just so it is clear, I am just a user/tester of the bot... have no other affiliation with it.  disclaimer on me, I am an experienced trader, but pretty new to playing with bots; I am learning.

One of the things I like about Stephan's bot, is that it warns you when you are making a bone-headed move on your settings; then actually does a pretty good job protecting you from both the market and yourself.  I am a great tester of these features, as I am a master of bone-headed moves.

So... back to the question that started this whole thing, trade amounts.  We now know, from the math, that "bigger is better" when trading.  So:

Step #1.  Using smaller amounts, get a feel for the market and where your profit points are.

Step #2.  Use as much money as you can afford to risk in making your trades.

If you succeed with #1, and your trade strategies are valid, you will make the most money with step #2.  If not, you will lose the most lol.

That said, I would love for there to be more discussion in this forum geared specifically toward settings & strategies in using STB.  This is _not_ a simple "plug & play" bot, despite it's name, & I would love to get a better grasp on using the tools it offers.

OMG inki74 do you not see the line that reads "Required market movement: 0.004 PPC" for BOTH amounts?!

For the love of God man!  

MINIMUM MARKET MOVEMENT DOES NOT CHANGE WITH AMOUNT!  

See in line #5 in Stephan's explanation?  See what is says?  See "Required market movement"?  What is the amount?  0.004 PPC, whether you are trading 5 PPC or 30 PPC.  Right?

Sir, if you truly cannot separate _market movement_ (does not change with trade amount) from _trade cost_ (percentage of trade amount, does move with trade amount) then trading may not be a good idea for you.  You are completely failing to grasp the most basic principals necessary to do this; even when put before you in the most plain English I can muster.

I wish you luck, but fear I have failed to help you.  I am not going to keep beating this poor dead horse.

enki74,

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are you saying that it is wrong to think that one will have less trades while trading 1 btc at a time vs trading .1 btc if not then Im still not sure how this works because from my math while trading 1 btc X 2 trades @.2% each is .004 fee, and .1 btc X 2 trades @ .2% each is .0004 fee btc a smaller number than .004 and so my thinking is that the bot will be able to activate more often on smaller movements, if this is wrong then I'm really not getting it
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Yes, that is what I am saying... that is why I said it.  Yes, your math is wrong... that is what I said.  I agree, you are really not getting it.  Yes, that is sad, because I do not know how to say it more clearly then:

Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise.

Seriously.

Believe me or don't, but I gave you the formulas the whole trade world uses.

I can tell that you desperately want the rules to be different, but they are not.

You do make a good point of noticing that in a forum full of experienced traders, nobody is stepping up to tell you I am wrong.

So, given that Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise, if you like, we can move on to trade strategies (since this is how the discussion started).

We know that Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise.  Given this, we now know that there are only x number of profitable trades for any given time period.  Knowing that, we can deduce that your profit truly is tied to trade about; but opposite of what you were hoping.  The larger your trade amount, the larger your return, because trading locks you into strict percentages.  Lets do an exercise:

Let use our same round number examples and say that the market moves beyond our threshold limits 4 times today.  The price moves as follows:

8am  $100
11am $100.50
2pm   $100
6pm   $100.50

Providing your starting position was "in", you could buy/sell 3 times, because the market moved $0.50, and we established that $0.40 was our break-even point with a 0.2% fee.

It is important to state here that if these are the only times the market breaks your min raise/drop threshold today, these are the only times you are going to be able to make profitable trades today.  No amount o playing with creative math is going to change that.

So, if you traded using $1, you will make $0.001 twice... for a total profit of $0.002 today.

On the other hand if you have $10,000 in your account and trade it all, you would have made $20.

This, my friend, is why the rich get richer, and the poor fight at a disadvantage.  If your math were correct, it would be an equalizer.  Shame it is not.

@enki:
Lets take your example.

Trade amount: 5 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.01 PPC per Trade    (5 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.02 PPC per Cycle     (0.01 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.02 PPC per Cycle / 5 PPC)

Trade amount: 30 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.06 PPC per Trade    (30 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.12 PPC per Cycle     (0.06 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.12 PPC per Cycle / 30 PPC)

Exchange costs total = Minimum raise and drop warning level @ STBot v0.8.x

This is the simple explanation, the real one is more complicated because i need to take the exchange price in account for example. When i display a minimum value i need to calculate it back to the other coin currency.

I hope this helps.

OK so I think your missing my point and I still may be wrong here but reading your line "no trade amount that will affect the actual drop needed to make a profit" are you saying that it is wrong to think that one will have less trades while trading 1 btc at a time vs trading .1 btc if not then Im still not sure how this works because from my math while trading 1 btc X 2 trades @.2% each is .004 fee, and .1 btc X 2 trades @ .2% each is .0004 fee btc a smaller number than .004 and so my thinking is that the bot will be able to activate more often on smaller movements, if this is wrong then I'm really not getting it but I will study your answer above further... thanks for the effort

After re reading I think the point in dispute is that the .4% fee is applied to the current price vs the trade amount so if the fee is applied to the trade amount then the higher the trade amount the higher the fee the greater the movement required, no? If not please please see if you can find a way to make it clear to me :/ thanks again for your time....

Better enki74... thank you for separating your txt from the quoted txt... makes your posts more readable.

I apologize if I have not answered your question, I did try.

Let me try in a different way.  You are confusing the fee%/actualcost/movement%/movementactualcost ratios.

The basic flaw in your math is that you are somehow tying the trade amount to the movement/% fee equation.  That is simply not correct.

Using round numbers again, suppose BTC is worth $100/ea, & the exchange charges a 0.2% fee for each trade.

Because we know it takes two trades to make a profit, we know we have to double the fee (two trades) to arrive at what our minimum drop/raise will be.  In this case, it is 0.4%

This means we can calculate the minimum drop/raise thusly: 100*0.004 = $0.40

You have now calculated the minimum amount the price must move for you to make a trade and _not_ lose money.

Lets make a trade.  Lets Trade $1 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make another trade.  Lets Trade $100 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make a final trade.  Lets Trade $0.000001 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Why?  Because (100-99.60)-(100*0.004)=0 (tradeamount[sell]-(tradeamount[buy])-(tradeamount*fee)
and (1-0.60)-(1*0.004)=0
and of course (0.000001-0.0006)-(0.000001*0.004)=0

This means that there is no trade amount that will affect the actual drop amount needed to make a profit.

Honestly sir, I am at a loss for how I could be more "forthcoming".  I grant that maybe I am not explaining it right, so I invite you to test in on your own.  Use small amounts tho, because math is a cruel, unforgiving master.  If you get it wrong, she will exact her price on you.



Sean

enki74, first, you are embedding your replies in other people's txt... makes it very difficult to understand or read (see post above).

2nd, you are still confusing _cost of trade_ and _price movement_.  As someone who actually makes a living trading, and doing so for a great many years, I can tell you that your trading assumptions are wrong, and will lose you money.  On the up side, Stephan's bot will protect you from yourself, as it is pretty foolproof (please don't take offense), and will work hard to keep you from making losing trades.

If you want to see the result for yourself, do some manual live trading off your formula.  The beauty of math is that numbers do not lie.

@San1ty:
I simply avoid it to happen at all.
So I agree and you have made my point which is that the higher the trade amount the higher the fee and therefore the larger the "price movement" must be in order to have a trade. Many small trades = more profit potential May be better to trade 10 X an hour than 10 X a day. Anyway if you could explain the new ability of .9 to be on one currency pair more with more than one trade bot, would appreciate

On another subject, do I need to reset anything after the Jump out price is triggered like today on BTC/LTC?

Thanks again for the great work...



If you use technical market indicators you will notice they act before the lowest or highest point is reached. Of course this can cut you off some better momentum, but that is why i created version 0.9. Using more indicators an better momentum can be found. And again, there will be overhead inside it.

In the rare case a order be at the situation you have described (0,1%) the overall best solution is chosen: Wait it out. A currency goes up and down in time and the price will be reached most of the times. In absolute rare case it does not, you need to cancel the order yourself.

@enki74:
The exchange cost are build up like this:

Trade amount * Exchange-fee = Trade costs

So:
0.2 BTC * 0.2% = 0.0004 BTC
0.5 BTC * 0.2% = 0.0010 BTC
1.0 BTC * 0.2%  = 0.0020 BTC

To make an complete profitable trade you need to exchange 2 times (buy & sell), so you need to pay these costs 2 times to the exchange.

If you set the profit or drop amount to low the software will warn you about it. (that is an security measure)

@San1ty:
Well thats very simple. I just keep track on all open orders at Bitstamp. As soon as i send a trade signal the amount of orders must go up. Once it goes down again i know the order has been filled.
Well Im not sure I get it did you see my follow on question this is how I understand it:

OK lets start with your first line .2 X 2 got it two trades to make any money to pay for fees.
2nd line .4% this is really 100 X .4% = .4 or 40 cents not 4 $ right? Why $96?

If we agree,
then... .20 btc X .4% = .0008, x 2 trades = .0016 trade fee or .0016 btc (roughly 1.6 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

then..  .80 btc X .4% = .0032,  x 2 trades = .0064 trade fee or .0064 btc (roughly 6.4 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

Im not great at math but this is how it seems to work to me, and still interested in being corrected




This is not the perfect way, i agree. At version 0.9 i have improved the tracking of orders and there i will track them based on the order id itself. This enables me to offer 2 trade bots that can work on 1 exchange and 1 currency and it enabled multi-trading. Manuel trading can not impact the operation of the trade bot itself this way.


@dddbtc:
Trading on Bitstamp is still working, Bitstamp will change there API on the end of the month. Until that time you can still login using your loginname and password. Just be sure you have enabled the API capabilities. Thats all what is required. I have got 2 remote computers working on Bitstamp with no problems, so i expect you should have no problems to.

As usual i will make sure the API gets updated and with the next release you can trade at Bitstamp using the new API keys. I am implementing the new security now into the API.

Note: This is one of several reasons why i keep on recommending to get the software from me. Without it you will having a trade bot that does not work anymore by the end of the month.


@enki74:
Do you need some help from me too or did seanrarey explain it enough? Seanrarey is very, very good at mathmatics, i can tell you that.

OK lets start with your first line .2 X 2 got it two trades to make any money to pay for fees.
2nd line .4% this is really 100 X .4% = .4 or 40 cents not 4 $ right? Why $96?

If we agree,
then... .20 btc X .4% = .0008, x 2 trades = .0016 trade fee or .0016 btc (roughly 1.6 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

then..  .80 btc X .4% = .0032,  x 2 trades = .0064 trade fee or .0064 btc (roughly 6.4 cents @$100) required movement before profit.


No, actually it does not.

If the trade fee is 0.2% then 0.4% is the minimum the price must move to accomplish a trade w/o making a loss.  If the price is $100, that means it needs to drop to <$96 before you can trade & expect to make a profit (favorable bounce assumed).

So, lets do an exercise.  Say price drops to $99.50  Your position is $100, so it is a drop of 0.5%.  Having done due diligence you are confident this is a spike (not a trend), the drop is sufficient to pay your fees (>0.4%) and wish to capitalize in it.  You buy, wait for the price to return to $100 and sell.

The differential is 0.5%

If you traded $1, you made one half of one cent.
If you traded $1,000 you made $5.

How much you trade had no affect on your profit points & percentages.  It only affects your net profit.

To put it in your words, the market must move exactly the same amount to realize profit; regardless of amount traded.

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ok so how many $100.20 trades a day are u going to make given its got to move 20 cent before u trade vs 100 $1 trades w $.002 fee price only needs to move .002 befor profit begins to be made..... does this make sense? Smiley smart a...
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Um, no, you are confusing fee percent with market movement.  Market movement as it relates to profit does not move with the fee lol.

No.  Fees are percentage based.  Fee for a $100 trade with a .2% fee is is $0.20.  Fees for 100 $1 trades is... any guesses...? Yep, exactly the same.

Um... there is so much wrong with your math... & yes, you would lose money.