Haasonline Simple Trade Bot For BTCe and Bitstamp[Main topic]

[Stephan224]

@San1ty:
Well thats very simple. I just keep track on all open orders at Bitstamp. As soon as i send a trade signal the amount of orders must go up. Once it goes down again i know the order has been filled.

This is not the perfect way, i agree. At version 0.9 i have improved the tracking of orders and there i will track them based on the order id itself. This enables me to offer 2 trade bots that can work on 1 exchange and 1 currency and it enabled multi-trading. Manuel trading can not impact the operation of the trade bot itself this way.


@dddbtc:
Trading on Bitstamp is still working, Bitstamp will change there API on the end of the month. Until that time you can still login using your loginname and password. Just be sure you have enabled the API capabilities. Thats all what is required. I have got 2 remote computers working on Bitstamp with no problems, so i expect you should have no problems to.

As usual i will make sure the API gets updated and with the next release you can trade at Bitstamp using the new API keys. I am implementing the new security now into the API.

Note: This is one of several reasons why i keep on recommending to get the software from me. Without it you will having a trade bot that does not work anymore by the end of the month.


@enki74:
Do you need some help from me too or did seanrarey explain it enough? Seanrarey is very, very good at mathmatics, i can tell you that.

[San1ty]

@San1ty:
Well thats very simple. I just keep track on all open orders at Bitstamp. As soon as i send a trade signal the amount of orders must go up. Once it goes down again i know the order has been filled.

This is not the perfect way, i agree. At version 0.9 i have improved the tracking of orders and there i will track them based on the order id itself. This enables me to offer 2 trade bots that can work on 1 exchange and 1 currency and it enabled multi-trading. Manuel trading can not impact the operation of the trade bot itself this way.

Thanks for replying, I'm really interested in automated trading (Quite a lot of experience with indicators and coding in Node.JS myself).

I'd like to go over a situation that I have in mind and I'd like to know how your bot reacts to this:

1) The Bot identifies a buying signal according to an indicator. It determines that it would like to buy 10 BTC at the current market sell price of $123.
2) The Bot creates an order 10 @ $123 but there is only 5 BTC being sold @ $123 and another 5 BTC @ $124.
3) The Bot now has an order open for the remaining 5 BTC, but it might never get filled.

There are a couple of solution in my opinion:

1) The bot scales up with the price, It'll pay $124 for the remaining 5 BTC.
2) The bot monitors the order and if it isn't filled after a while cancels the remaining amount and will continue trading with the 5 BTC that it managed to get.
3) The bot does not buy at all if there isn't enough BTC available at the identified price point.

What is your solution?

[enki74]

@San1ty:
Well thats very simple. I just keep track on all open orders at Bitstamp. As soon as i send a trade signal the amount of orders must go up. Once it goes down again i know the order has been filled.
Well Im not sure I get it did you see my follow on question this is how I understand it:

OK lets start with your first line .2 X 2 got it two trades to make any money to pay for fees.
2nd line .4% this is really 100 X .4% = .4 or 40 cents not 4 $ right? Why $96?

If we agree,
then... .20 btc X .4% = .0008, x 2 trades = .0016 trade fee or .0016 btc (roughly 1.6 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

then..  .80 btc X .4% = .0032,  x 2 trades = .0064 trade fee or .0064 btc (roughly 6.4 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

Im not great at math but this is how it seems to work to me, and still interested in being corrected




This is not the perfect way, i agree. At version 0.9 i have improved the tracking of orders and there i will track them based on the order id itself. This enables me to offer 2 trade bots that can work on 1 exchange and 1 currency and it enabled multi-trading. Manuel trading can not impact the operation of the trade bot itself this way.


@dddbtc:
Trading on Bitstamp is still working, Bitstamp will change there API on the end of the month. Until that time you can still login using your loginname and password. Just be sure you have enabled the API capabilities. Thats all what is required. I have got 2 remote computers working on Bitstamp with no problems, so i expect you should have no problems to.

As usual i will make sure the API gets updated and with the next release you can trade at Bitstamp using the new API keys. I am implementing the new security now into the API.

Note: This is one of several reasons why i keep on recommending to get the software from me. Without it you will having a trade bot that does not work anymore by the end of the month.


@enki74:
Do you need some help from me too or did seanrarey explain it enough? Seanrarey is very, very good at mathmatics, i can tell you that.

[seanrarey]

@San1ty:
Well thats very simple. I just keep track on all open orders at Bitstamp. As soon as i send a trade signal the amount of orders must go up. Once it goes down again i know the order has been filled.
Well Im not sure I get it did you see my follow on question this is how I understand it:

OK lets start with your first line .2 X 2 got it two trades to make any money to pay for fees.
2nd line .4% this is really 100 X .4% = .4 or 40 cents not 4 $ right? Why $96?

If we agree,
then... .20 btc X .4% = .0008, x 2 trades = .0016 trade fee or .0016 btc (roughly 1.6 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

then..  .80 btc X .4% = .0032,  x 2 trades = .0064 trade fee or .0064 btc (roughly 6.4 cents @$100) required movement before profit.

Im not great at math but this is how it seems to work to me, and still interested in being corrected




This is not the perfect way, i agree. At version 0.9 i have improved the tracking of orders and there i will track them based on the order id itself. This enables me to offer 2 trade bots that can work on 1 exchange and 1 currency and it enabled multi-trading. Manuel trading can not impact the operation of the trade bot itself this way.


@dddbtc:
Trading on Bitstamp is still working, Bitstamp will change there API on the end of the month. Until that time you can still login using your loginname and password. Just be sure you have enabled the API capabilities. Thats all what is required. I have got 2 remote computers working on Bitstamp with no problems, so i expect you should have no problems to.

As usual i will make sure the API gets updated and with the next release you can trade at Bitstamp using the new API keys. I am implementing the new security now into the API.

Note: This is one of several reasons why i keep on recommending to get the software from me. Without it you will having a trade bot that does not work anymore by the end of the month.


@enki74:
Do you need some help from me too or did seanrarey explain it enough? Seanrarey is very, very good at mathmatics, i can tell you that.

enki74, you are confusing fee percent with market movement.  Market movement as it relates to profit does not move with the fee.

As your trade amount decreases, so do both your earnings and the fee that is collected at the exchange; but _not_ your minimum drop/raise amount.  You are mixing apples & oranges with your math.

___________clip___________
then... .20 btc X .4% = .0008, x 2 trades = .0016 trade fee or .0016 btc (roughly 1.6 cents @$100) required movement before profit.
then..  .80 btc X .4% = .0032,  x 2 trades = .0064 trade fee or .0064 btc (roughly 6.4 cents @$100) required movement before profit.
___________clip___________
Where you are going wrong in your math is your "required movement" assumption.  Required movement relates to fee percent; _not_ trade amount.  You cannot mix those, or your math is invalid.

Put another way, assuming BTC value of $100, minimum movement of price in your example is $0.40; for _any_ trade amount.Trading any amount below that (as you are suggesting) will lose money.

[Stephan224]

@San1ty:
I simply avoid it to happen at all.

If you use technical market indicators you will notice they act before the lowest or highest point is reached. Of course this can cut you off some better momentum, but that is why i created version 0.9. Using more indicators an better momentum can be found. And again, there will be overhead inside it.

In the rare case a order be at the situation you have described (0,1%) the overall best solution is chosen: Wait it out. A currency goes up and down in time and the price will be reached most of the times. In absolute rare case it does not, you need to cancel the order yourself.

@enki74:
The exchange cost are build up like this:

Trade amount * Exchange-fee = Trade costs

So:
0.2 BTC * 0.2% = 0.0004 BTC
0.5 BTC * 0.2% = 0.0010 BTC
1.0 BTC * 0.2%  = 0.0020 BTC

To make an complete profitable trade you need to exchange 2 times (buy & sell), so you need to pay these costs 2 times to the exchange.

If you set the profit or drop amount to low the software will warn you about it. (that is an security measure)

[enki74]

@San1ty:
I simply avoid it to happen at all.
So I agree and you have made my point which is that the higher the trade amount the higher the fee and therefore the larger the "price movement" must be in order to have a trade. Many small trades = more profit potential May be better to trade 10 X an hour than 10 X a day. Anyway if you could explain the new ability of .9 to be on one currency pair more with more than one trade bot, would appreciate

On another subject, do I need to reset anything after the Jump out price is triggered like today on BTC/LTC?

Thanks again for the great work...



If you use technical market indicators you will notice they act before the lowest or highest point is reached. Of course this can cut you off some better momentum, but that is why i created version 0.9. Using more indicators an better momentum can be found. And again, there will be overhead inside it.

In the rare case a order be at the situation you have described (0,1%) the overall best solution is chosen: Wait it out. A currency goes up and down in time and the price will be reached most of the times. In absolute rare case it does not, you need to cancel the order yourself.

@enki74:
The exchange cost are build up like this:

Trade amount * Exchange-fee = Trade costs

So:
0.2 BTC * 0.2% = 0.0004 BTC
0.5 BTC * 0.2% = 0.0010 BTC
1.0 BTC * 0.2%  = 0.0020 BTC

To make an complete profitable trade you need to exchange 2 times (buy & sell), so you need to pay these costs 2 times to the exchange.

If you set the profit or drop amount to low the software will warn you about it. (that is an security measure)

[seanrarey]

enki74, first, you are embedding your replies in other people's txt... makes it very difficult to understand or read (see post above).

2nd, you are still confusing _cost of trade_ and _price movement_.  As someone who actually makes a living trading, and doing so for a great many years, I can tell you that your trading assumptions are wrong, and will lose you money.  On the up side, Stephan's bot will protect you from yourself, as it is pretty foolproof (please don't take offense), and will work hard to keep you from making losing trades.

If you want to see the result for yourself, do some manual live trading off your formula.  The beauty of math is that numbers do not lie.

[San1ty]

@San1ty:
I simply avoid it to happen at all.

If you use technical market indicators you will notice they act before the lowest or highest point is reached. Of course this can cut you off some better momentum, but that is why i created version 0.9. Using more indicators an better momentum can be found. And again, there will be overhead inside it.

In the rare case a order be at the situation you have described (0,1%) the overall best solution is chosen: Wait it out. A currency goes up and down in time and the price will be reached most of the times. In absolute rare case it does not, you need to cancel the order yourself.

Hmm, my opinion is that a bot should be completely self sufficient.
I would like to suggest you add a clean-up procedure that checks your open orders that are no longer relevant and cancels them.

Otherwise if you leave the bot unattended for a longer period, you might have an unpleasant surprise.

[enki74]

Ok whatever you don't seem to be very forthcoming with corrections....Im nothing if not good at asking questions none of which seem to be worthy of your time... Very superior attitude "As someone" who knows a few things about a few things and always willing to explain when I have a willing ear...

enki74, first, you are embedding your replies in other people's txt... makes it very difficult to understand or read (see post above).

2nd, you are still confusing _cost of trade_ and _price movement_.  As someone who actually makes a living trading, and doing so for a great many years, I can tell you that your trading assumptions are wrong, and will lose you money.  On the up side, Stephan's bot will protect you from yourself, as it is pretty foolproof (please don't take offense), and will work hard to keep you from making losing trades.

If you want to see the result for yourself, do some manual live trading off your formula.  The beauty of math is that numbers do not lie.

[seanrarey]

Ok whatever you don't seem to be very forthcoming with corrections....Im nothing if not good at asking questions none of which seem to be worthy of your time... Very superior attitude "As someone" who knows a few things about a few things and always willing to explain when I have a willing ear...

enki74, first, you are embedding your replies in other people's txt... makes it very difficult to understand or read (see post above).

2nd, you are still confusing _cost of trade_ and _price movement_.  As someone who actually makes a living trading, and doing so for a great many years, I can tell you that your trading assumptions are wrong, and will lose you money.  On the up side, Stephan's bot will protect you from yourself, as it is pretty foolproof (please don't take offense), and will work hard to keep you from making losing trades.

If you want to see the result for yourself, do some manual live trading off your formula.  The beauty of math is that numbers do not lie.

Better enki74... thank you for separating your txt from the quoted txt... makes your posts more readable.

I apologize if I have not answered your question, I did try.

Let me try in a different way.  You are confusing the fee%/actualcost/movement%/movementactualcost ratios.

The basic flaw in your math is that you are somehow tying the trade amount to the movement/% fee equation.  That is simply not correct.

Using round numbers again, suppose BTC is worth $100/ea, & the exchange charges a 0.2% fee for each trade.

Because we know it takes two trades to make a profit, we know we have to double the fee (two trades) to arrive at what our minimum drop/raise will be.  In this case, it is 0.4%

This means we can calculate the minimum drop/raise thusly: 100*0.004 = $0.40

You have now calculated the minimum amount the price must move for you to make a trade and _not_ lose money.

Lets make a trade.  Lets Trade $1 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make another trade.  Lets Trade $100 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make a final trade.  Lets Trade $0.000001 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Why?  Because (100-99.60)-(100*0.004)=0 (tradeamount[sell]-(tradeamount[buy])-(tradeamount*fee)
and (1-0.60)-(1*0.004)=0
and of course (0.000001-0.0006)-(0.000001*0.004)=0

This means that there is no trade amount that will affect the actual drop amount needed to make a profit.

Honestly sir, I am at a loss for how I could be more "forthcoming".  I grant that maybe I am not explaining it right, so I invite you to test in on your own.  Use small amounts tho, because math is a cruel, unforgiving master.  If you get it wrong, she will exact her price on you.



Sean

[JackDinn]

Hi,

Great bot, im testing with the latest version 0.9.0.0 alpha.

Unfortunately even though i have some problems and questions i shall leave them until i can use it properly. I can not use it until the timer setting is fix as its is stuck on 20 seconds at the moment and i cant really do much at that frequency.

I did also try to use it on bitstamp with just my login details but it would not connect and did in fact cause bitstamp to block my IP for 10 minutes (not quite sure how as you have to be polling really fast (1/sec i think) to get a block on your IP but i managed it somehow).

I shall give bitstamp another try and ask my some of my questions when the timer is fixed and i can test properly.

Excellent work so far , looking forward to tinkering with all the signals

Many thx.

[Stephan224]

I have already adapted the API of Bitstamp to support API Keys, this will be in the next release (before the end of the month) At this moment the old way of using the user id and password is still supported and working. (I have put a warning at my website about Bitstamp and there API)

The timer of version 0.9 is locked at 20seconds, i have confirmed that is bug in the Alpha release of version 0.9. However, just please only report the bugs of the Alpha version to me directly and not here. It has no use at all to post it here, people might get confused because of it. If the bug is in the beta release, you are of course free to post it here. But not for an Alpha release, most of the people will never see that version. An Alpha is made for testing, not for production.

------------------

Something else... i want to show the benchmark capabilities of version 0.9 Alpha. I already find out the Alpha testers are not really looking at this new feature, this is a shame because it is one of the best improvements inside version 0.9. Using the benchmark capabilities you can find out in detail what is going on and how to improve your trade bot and indicators on it.



Especially the Indicators tab is very interesting. It will show you all the signals the trade bot generates. The image below is a simple of a MACD indicator, but using the combobox you can also see the profit potential, extended currency information and all other signals.



Of course when we are done testing version 0.9 everybody will be updated and everybody can use these new features. (do not ask, just wait before the end of the month, it will come)

[enki74]

Ok whatever you don't seem to be very forthcoming with corrections....Im nothing if not good at asking questions none of which seem to be worthy of your time... Very superior attitude "As someone" who knows a few things about a few things and always willing to explain when I have a willing ear...

enki74, first, you are embedding your replies in other people's txt... makes it very difficult to understand or read (see post above).

2nd, you are still confusing _cost of trade_ and _price movement_.  As someone who actually makes a living trading, and doing so for a great many years, I can tell you that your trading assumptions are wrong, and will lose you money.  On the up side, Stephan's bot will protect you from yourself, as it is pretty foolproof (please don't take offense), and will work hard to keep you from making losing trades.

If you want to see the result for yourself, do some manual live trading off your formula.  The beauty of math is that numbers do not lie.

Better enki74... thank you for separating your txt from the quoted txt... makes your posts more readable.

I apologize if I have not answered your question, I did try.

Let me try in a different way.  You are confusing the fee%/actualcost/movement%/movementactualcost ratios.

The basic flaw in your math is that you are somehow tying the trade amount to the movement/% fee equation.  That is simply not correct.

Using round numbers again, suppose BTC is worth $100/ea, & the exchange charges a 0.2% fee for each trade.

Because we know it takes two trades to make a profit, we know we have to double the fee (two trades) to arrive at what our minimum drop/raise will be.  In this case, it is 0.4%

This means we can calculate the minimum drop/raise thusly: 100*0.004 = $0.40

You have now calculated the minimum amount the price must move for you to make a trade and _not_ lose money.

Lets make a trade.  Lets Trade $1 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make another trade.  Lets Trade $100 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make a final trade.  Lets Trade $0.000001 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Why?  Because (100-99.60)-(100*0.004)=0 (tradeamount[sell]-(tradeamount[buy])-(tradeamount*fee)
and (1-0.60)-(1*0.004)=0
and of course (0.000001-0.0006)-(0.000001*0.004)=0

This means that there is no trade amount that will affect the actual drop amount needed to make a profit.

Honestly sir, I am at a loss for how I could be more "forthcoming".  I grant that maybe I am not explaining it right, so I invite you to test in on your own.  Use small amounts tho, because math is a cruel, unforgiving master.  If you get it wrong, she will exact her price on you.



Sean

OK so I think your missing my point and I still may be wrong here but reading your line "no trade amount that will affect the actual drop needed to make a profit" are you saying that it is wrong to think that one will have less trades while trading 1 btc at a time vs trading .1 btc if not then Im still not sure how this works because from my math while trading 1 btc X 2 trades @.2% each is .004 fee, and .1 btc X 2 trades @ .2% each is .0004 fee btc a smaller number than .004 and so my thinking is that the bot will be able to activate more often on smaller movements, if this is wrong then I'm really not getting it but I will study your answer above further... thanks for the effort

After re reading I think the point in dispute is that the .4% fee is applied to the current price vs the trade amount so if the fee is applied to the trade amount then the higher the trade amount the higher the fee the greater the movement required, no? If not please please see if you can find a way to make it clear to me :/ thanks again for your time....

[enki74]

Ok whatever you don't seem to be very forthcoming with corrections....Im nothing if not good at asking questions none of which seem to be worthy of your time... Very superior attitude "As someone" who knows a few things about a few things and always willing to explain when I have a willing ear...

enki74, first, you are embedding your replies in other people's txt... makes it very difficult to understand or read (see post above).

2nd, you are still confusing _cost of trade_ and _price movement_.  As someone who actually makes a living trading, and doing so for a great many years, I can tell you that your trading assumptions are wrong, and will lose you money.  On the up side, Stephan's bot will protect you from yourself, as it is pretty foolproof (please don't take offense), and will work hard to keep you from making losing trades.

If you want to see the result for yourself, do some manual live trading off your formula.  The beauty of math is that numbers do not lie.

Better enki74... thank you for separating your txt from the quoted txt... makes your posts more readable.

I apologize if I have not answered your question, I did try.

Let me try in a different way.  You are confusing the fee%/actualcost/movement%/movementactualcost ratios.

The basic flaw in your math is that you are somehow tying the trade amount to the movement/% fee equation.  That is simply not correct.

Using round numbers again, suppose BTC is worth $100/ea, & the exchange charges a 0.2% fee for each trade.

Because we know it takes two trades to make a profit, we know we have to double the fee (two trades) to arrive at what our minimum drop/raise will be.  In this case, it is 0.4%

This means we can calculate the minimum drop/raise thusly: 100*0.004 = $0.40

You have now calculated the minimum amount the price must move for you to make a trade and _not_ lose money.

Lets make a trade.  Lets Trade $1 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make another trade.  Lets Trade $100 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Lets make a final trade.  Lets Trade $0.000001 worth of BTC.  If we buy @ $99.60 & sell @ $100 we have traded using the calculated $0.40 minimum, and have lost no money... end result = 0

Why?  Because (100-99.60)-(100*0.004)=0 (tradeamount[sell]-(tradeamount[buy])-(tradeamount*fee)
and (1-0.60)-(1*0.004)=0
and of course (0.000001-0.0006)-(0.000001*0.004)=0

This means that there is no trade amount that will affect the actual drop amount needed to make a profit.

Honestly sir, I am at a loss for how I could be more "forthcoming".  I grant that maybe I am not explaining it right, so I invite you to test in on your own.  Use small amounts tho, because math is a cruel, unforgiving master.  If you get it wrong, she will exact her price on you.



Sean

OK so I think your missing my point and I still may be wrong here but reading your line "no trade amount that will affect the actual drop needed to make a profit" are you saying that it is wrong to think that one will have less trades while trading 1 btc at a time vs trading .1 btc if not then Im still not sure how this works because from my math while trading 1 btc X 2 trades @.2% each is .004 fee, and .1 btc X 2 trades @ .2% each is .0004 fee btc a smaller number than .004 and so my thinking is that the bot will be able to activate more often on smaller movements, if this is wrong then I'm really not getting it but I will study your answer above further... thanks for the effort

After re reading I think the point in dispute is that the .4% fee is applied to the current price vs the trade amount so if the fee is applied to the trade amount then the higher the trade amount the higher the fee the greater the movement required, no? If not please please see if you can find a way to make it clear to me :/ thanks again for your time....

Is there anyone else willing to weigh in on the questions above?

Just now while I use the trade bot I changed my ppc/btc sell amount from 5 to 30 30 ppc =~ .1 BTC however I get the warning that I must raise my min. currency raize to .12BTC this is not correct as I can figure and I think plays into the discussion above..... any thoughts welcome..

[Stephan224]

@enki:
Lets take your example.

Trade amount: 5 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.01 PPC per Trade    (5 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.02 PPC per Cycle     (0.01 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.02 PPC per Cycle / 5 PPC)

Trade amount: 30 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.06 PPC per Trade    (30 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.12 PPC per Cycle     (0.06 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.12 PPC per Cycle / 30 PPC)

Exchange costs total = Minimum raise and drop warning level @ STBot v0.8.x

This is the simple explanation, the real one is more complicated because i need to take the exchange price in account for example. When i display a minimum value i need to calculate it back to the other coin currency.

I hope this helps.

[seanrarey]

enki74,

________________clip________________
are you saying that it is wrong to think that one will have less trades while trading 1 btc at a time vs trading .1 btc if not then Im still not sure how this works because from my math while trading 1 btc X 2 trades @.2% each is .004 fee, and .1 btc X 2 trades @ .2% each is .0004 fee btc a smaller number than .004 and so my thinking is that the bot will be able to activate more often on smaller movements, if this is wrong then I'm really not getting it
________________clip________________

Yes, that is what I am saying... that is why I said it.  Yes, your math is wrong... that is what I said.  I agree, you are really not getting it.  Yes, that is sad, because I do not know how to say it more clearly then:

Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise.

Seriously.

Believe me or don't, but I gave you the formulas the whole trade world uses.

I can tell that you desperately want the rules to be different, but they are not.

You do make a good point of noticing that in a forum full of experienced traders, nobody is stepping up to tell you I am wrong.

So, given that Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise, if you like, we can move on to trade strategies (since this is how the discussion started).

We know that Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise.  Given this, we now know that there are only x number of profitable trades for any given time period.  Knowing that, we can deduce that your profit truly is tied to trade about; but opposite of what you were hoping.  The larger your trade amount, the larger your return, because trading locks you into strict percentages.  Lets do an exercise:

Let use our same round number examples and say that the market moves beyond our threshold limits 4 times today.  The price moves as follows:

8am  $100
11am $100.50
2pm   $100
6pm   $100.50

Providing your starting position was "in", you could buy/sell 3 times, because the market moved $0.50, and we established that $0.40 was our break-even point with a 0.2% fee.

It is important to state here that if these are the only times the market breaks your min raise/drop threshold today, these are the only times you are going to be able to make profitable trades today.  No amount o playing with creative math is going to change that.

So, if you traded using $1, you will make $0.001 twice... for a total profit of $0.002 today.

On the other hand if you have $10,000 in your account and trade it all, you would have made $20.

This, my friend, is why the rich get richer, and the poor fight at a disadvantage.  If your math were correct, it would be an equalizer.  Shame it is not.

[enki74]

@enki:
Lets take your example.

Trade amount: 5 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.01 PPC per Trade    (5 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.02 PPC per Cycle     (0.01 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.02 PPC per Cycle / 5 PPC)

Trade amount: 30 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.06 PPC per Trade    (30 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.12 PPC per Cycle     (0.06 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.12 PPC per Cycle / 30 PPC)

Exchange costs total = Minimum raise and drop warning level @ STBot v0.8.x

This is the simple explanation, the real one is more complicated because i need to take the exchange price in account for example. When i display a minimum value i need to calculate it back to the other coin currency.

I hope this helps.

So using your example when

Trading 5 PPC + Exchange cost of .02 PPC
Trading 30 PPC + Exchange cost of .12 PPC

In order to make money on 1st example market must move .02 PPC to break even
In order to make money on 2nd example market must move .12 PPC to break even

Do you agree? If not please explain.  In the example you give above you / by the number of PPC traded this implies that each trade is broken down into 30 individual 1 PPC trades in which case yes every trade would only need .004 PPC movement but this is not the case as we are even discussing what to set it to.

[enki74]

enki74,

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are you saying that it is wrong to think that one will have less trades while trading 1 btc at a time vs trading .1 btc if not then Im still not sure how this works because from my math while trading 1 btc X 2 trades @.2% each is .004 fee, and .1 btc X 2 trades @ .2% each is .0004 fee btc a smaller number than .004 and so my thinking is that the bot will be able to activate more often on smaller movements, if this is wrong then I'm really not getting it
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Yes, that is what I am saying... that is why I said it.  Yes, your math is wrong... that is what I said.  I agree, you are really not getting it.  Yes, that is sad, because I do not know how to say it more clearly then:

Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise.

Seriously.

Believe me or don't, but I gave you the formulas the whole trade world uses.

I can tell that you desperately want the rules to be different, but they are not.

You do make a good point of noticing that in a forum full of experienced traders, nobody is stepping up to tell you I am wrong.

So, given that Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise, if you like, we can move on to trade strategies (since this is how the discussion started).

We know that Your   trade   amount   does   not  affect   minimum   price   drop/raise.  Given this, we now know that there are only x number of profitable trades for any given time period.  Knowing that, we can deduce that your profit truly is tied to trade about; but opposite of what you were hoping.  The larger your trade amount, the larger your return, because trading locks you into strict percentages.  Lets do an exercise:

Let use our same round number examples and say that the market moves beyond our threshold limits 4 times today.  The price moves as follows:

8am  $100
11am $100.50
2pm   $100
6pm   $100.50

Providing your starting position was "in", you could buy/sell 3 times, because the market moved $0.50, and we established that $0.40 was our break-even point with a 0.2% fee.

It is important to state here that if these are the only times the market breaks your min raise/drop threshold today, these are the only times you are going to be able to make profitable trades today.  No amount o playing with creative math is going to change that.

So, if you traded using $1, you will make $0.001 twice... for a total profit of $0.002 today.

On the other hand if you have $10,000 in your account and trade it all, you would have made $20.

This, my friend, is why the rich get richer, and the poor fight at a disadvantage.  If your math were correct, it would be an equalizer.  Shame it is not.

I see that you are trying to help and at the same time love to throw in the elitist egotistical berating comment all the while, I guess you figure your allowed but believe me I'm not the dullest tack in the world so would be nice if you can give help without brow beating.

It not that I "wish" something if I were to "wish" it the I would not be here asking I would just believe myself so get off the corrections of the creations in you mind of what I think you are not in my head and the reality is that what your pushing on me is whats in your head not mine. 

Know that when communication fails it is because there was not a send and receive there are always two responsible parties however you want to "score" it!

If your still with me after my feedback for you then here is something that may clear it up for me.

In your example what if between the market move 20 X each time moving $ .10 cents X your 3 points one could get more smaller trades in with more profit potentially right? I refer back to what you say here:

"It is important to state here that if these are the only times the market breaks your min raise/drop threshold today, these are the only times you are going to be able to make profitable trades today. "

So where did you get this min raise/drop level anyway you state that its .40 cents I guess because your trading $100 dollars at a time fine, but if I trade $10 then .04 cents is my min raise/drop and then the scenario that I'm trying to understand is possible, with say 50 X the number of buy sell opportunities.  Now if your saying that that may happen but unlikly then thats somthing else.... My point is that if you trade $1000 at a time the raise/drop level will be $4.00 so one may not get a single trade in a day right?

[seanrarey]

@enki:
Lets take your example.

Trade amount: 5 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.01 PPC per Trade    (5 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.02 PPC per Cycle     (0.01 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.02 PPC per Cycle / 5 PPC)

Trade amount: 30 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.06 PPC per Trade    (30 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.12 PPC per Cycle     (0.06 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.12 PPC per Cycle / 30 PPC)

Exchange costs total = Minimum raise and drop warning level @ STBot v0.8.x

This is the simple explanation, the real one is more complicated because i need to take the exchange price in account for example. When i display a minimum value i need to calculate it back to the other coin currency.

I hope this helps.

So using your example when

Trading 5 PPC + Exchange cost of .02 PPC
Trading 30 PPC + Exchange cost of .12 PPC

In order to make money on 1st example market must move .02 PPC to break even
In order to make money on 2nd example market must move .12 PPC to break even

Do you agree? If not please explain.  In the example you give above you / by the number of PPC traded this implies that each trade is broken down into 30 individual 1 PPC trades in which case yes every trade would only need .004 PPC movement but this is not the case as we are even discussing what to set it to.

OMG inki74 do you not see the line that reads "Required market movement: 0.004 PPC" for BOTH amounts?!

For the love of God man!  

MINIMUM MARKET MOVEMENT DOES NOT CHANGE WITH AMOUNT!  

See in line #5 in Stephan's explanation?  See what is says?  See "Required market movement"?  What is the amount?  0.004 PPC, whether you are trading 5 PPC or 30 PPC.  Right?

Sir, if you truly cannot separate _market movement_ (does not change with trade amount) from _trade cost_ (percentage of trade amount, does move with trade amount) then trading may not be a good idea for you.  You are completely failing to grasp the most basic principals necessary to do this; even when put before you in the most plain English I can muster.

I wish you luck, but fear I have failed to help you.  I am not going to keep beating this poor dead horse.

[enki74]

@enki:
Lets take your example.

Trade amount: 5 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.01 PPC per Trade    (5 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.02 PPC per Cycle     (0.01 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.02 PPC per Cycle / 5 PPC)

Trade amount: 30 PPC
Exchange fee: 0.2%
Exchange costs: 0.06 PPC per Trade    (30 PPC * 0.2%)
Exchange costs total: 0.12 PPC per Cycle     (0.06 PPC per Trade * 2)
Required market movement: 0.004 PPC      (0.12 PPC per Cycle / 30 PPC)

Exchange costs total = Minimum raise and drop warning level @ STBot v0.8.x

This is the simple explanation, the real one is more complicated because i need to take the exchange price in account for example. When i display a minimum value i need to calculate it back to the other coin currency.

I hope this helps.

So using your example when

Trading 5 PPC + Exchange cost of .02 PPC
Trading 30 PPC + Exchange cost of .12 PPC

In order to make money on 1st example market must move .02 PPC to break even
In order to make money on 2nd example market must move .12 PPC to break even

Do you agree? If not please explain.  In the example you give above you / by the number of PPC traded this implies that each trade is broken down into 30 individual 1 PPC trades in which case yes every trade would only need .004 PPC movement but this is not the case as we are even discussing what to set it to.

OMG inki74 do you not see the line that reads "Required market movement: 0.004 PPC" for BOTH amounts?!

For the love of God man!  

MINIMUM MARKET MOVEMENT DOES NOT CHANGE WITH AMOUNT!  

See in line #5 in Stephan's explanation?  See what is says?  See "Required market movement"?  What is the amount?  0.004 PPC, whether you are trading 5 PPC or 30 PPC.  Right?

Sir, if you truly cannot separate _market movement_ (does not change with trade amount) from _trade cost_ (percentage of trade amount, does move with trade amount) then trading may not be a good idea for you.  You are completely failing to grasp the most basic principals necessary to do this; even when put before you in the most plain English I can muster.

I wish you luck, but fear I have failed to help you.  I am not going to keep beating this poor dead horse.

$1000 traded will require fee of $4 correct?

$1 dollar traded will require fee of .004 correct?

If you could please explain that market does not need to move more to cover the cost of $4 than the one of $1 dollar

O shit, I got it from putting it this way,  what your saying is one makes more $ on the bigger trade to offset the cost.

Got it, perhaps you could have said that?

Yes let move on to some good stuff now I had to get past that :/