Hello New people/ Slightly Old people

This is an old topic i started which i am now editing to reformulate as a welcome for new people as no such topic is on traction in our sub at present. I and other older members like Heisenberg, eality etc. keep looking for newbies to join the club of crypto users. The knowledge available at this forum is immense and you need to take the right path as soon as possible to avoid the pitfalls of sham bounties, Scam forks and stay true to the idea of decentralization and openness.

If you are a new Indian account, just drop in and say hello.

• Say something about how you stumbled upon bitcoin and the forum.
• What are your expectations and what are you here for.
• There is no shame in accepting that you are here for the earning opportunities. We'd just like you to not become a shitposter...lol..
• We would like to help you wisen up for the right opportunities.
• In true cypherpunk fashion, we would like you to keep details of your real name, location etc private.
• Always look at people's trust rating before dealing with them in real monetary terms here at the forum

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Below you can find the content the topic was originally about. Suffice to say, it'll serve the merit function too and we have quite a few merit sources available now to make your time and effort in the India-sub worth your while.

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There have been certain questions regarding merit sources and merit distribution in India forum. We presently don't have a moderator and people are also concerned about not receiving enough merits.

Various topics had been started at other subs and Meta during the early days of merit. Most good Indian posters get enough merits to attain Member rank. If you think you are a genuine newbie and finding it hard to level up, then quote yourself in the reply and provide a link to two of your best posts on the forum.
I'll try to help with merits when i can and I am sure other members will too.

Here are a few links copied from an old post of mine where you can look for further merits. I am not sure if those are still functioning.

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Apart from this, The Indian forum isn't yet going anywhere because it has been left to its own by our early adopters who couldn't care less. Here are my thoughts on that. Well, Support or No-support from Early adopters, I believe that we can do better than this as a community. The best of the lot is still to give some attention to their own sub.

PS: My grave thoughts on the state of Indian sub have changed due to revival of effort from a lot of  good people, old and new..You can follow those here:

New pinned discussion on Indian sub by Heisenberg
Raffle for our Sub which I want to read "Free lottery to earn Satoshis"
Translated work from Nullius, Hindi comments encouraged

This does sound fantastical but the one possible use of blockchain could be the way ML models get their data. I read something of this sort just today on Lightning Dev Alex Bosworth's twitter.

https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1160936346833174528

He talks about training Human fascimile models. The concept of Human fascimile model looks similar to the "Digital Twin" model for machinery and equipment. You need large amount of data regarding choices humans make in order to train your model. The more data you have, better the model would be.
Though he only talks about paying people using Lightning for this job, yet, i feel the tweet also points towards using the obvious database of bitcoin transactions that consists of a humungous number of choices of what is being spent where.

The tweet is pretty cryptic and hard to understand. No doubt it received such less attention. Yet, Its an interesting line of thought the way i could interpret.

There was nothing in the article in terms of an explanation on how they arrived at the results. There should have been some information regarding the methodology used for classification.
What are the 71% unclassified transactions? When those many are unclassified, how can they claim that "only 2% are unlawful".

There is additional information available regarding the methodology on the website of Elliptic. Seems like they use their "forensic tool" to trace origin of bitcoin transactions with a proprietary set of addresses whose owners are known to be associated with dirty bitcoin. Dirty bitcoin refers to those addresses that were at any time associated with the Darknet marketplaces of yore.

If we are talking about Bitcoin solving cryptographic problems, Lets talk about the real world effects that solving any of those problem are having on "Bitcoin Inc", like Jet Cash said.

When Bitcoin solved the Byzantine General's problem, it paved way for currency. That is what it has remained.

Next was privacy problems and this gave rise to currencies like Dash, Monero

Next was the smart-contract thing but they couldn't be implemented here as per consensus which lead to the whole Ethereum and ERC-20 craze.

A lot of early adherents wanted both of this functions to come to Bitcoin core code. These are slowly coming into picture now with Schnorr Sigs, Rootstock and Simplicity. I wonder why RSK and Simplicity aren't talked more about on the forum.

The problem with systems based on PoS or DPoS that are trying to build on the Dapp ecosystem and Smart-contracts is that there doesn't seem to be enough demand for the "benefits" that these systems offer over traditional systems. Whether the crypto ecosystem will evolve enough in the long term for them to gain visibility and importance, is in doubt. Several major companies have explored "blockchain-based" solutions but nothing seems to be coming out of it despite the frenzy of past 2-3 years.

Although such use-cases with bitcoin too are proposed and under development, Bitcoin, first and foremost, has firmly been the latest type of money. Its need is almost universal which has caused the network effect.

बढ़िया काम कर रहे हो bitlover.. जो ट्रांसलेशन भी किये हैं वो काफी अच्छे हैं वरना ज्यादातर लोग सीधे अंग्रेजी को हिंदी में लिख देते हैं।  समझ में आ जाता है की लिखने वाला असल में, सीढ़ी साधी हिंदी में बात नहीं बता पा रहा है.
एक सुझाव है. टेक्निकल चीज़ों का ट्रांसलेशन थोड़ा सीधी  बोली में हो तो समझने में आसानी होगी। जैसे तुमने ऊपर  लिखा :

मान्य ब्लॉकचेन पर वैश्विक विकेंद्रीकृत आम सहमति तक पहुंचने का एक तंत्र (प्रूफ ऑफ वर्क एल्गोरिथ्म)

ऐसे समझना थोड़ा मुश्किल है।  इसी बात को अगर ऐसे लिखें:

मान्य ब्लॉकचेन के बारे में  वैश्विक स्तर पर, एक  विकेंद्रीकृत तरीके से, आम सहमति तक पहुंचने का एक तंत्र (प्रूफ ऑफ वर्क एल्गोरिथ्म)

I understand jyada difference nahi hai dono mein. What i am referring to is a "conversational style" while explaining concepts. Also, you could try making a glossary of these important words which are central to understanding blockchain and explain them in hindi..

Loving your efforts and its a pleasure to see someone trying to induce life into the Indian forum..All the best..

Great effort Bitlover.

It'd be great if you can change the formatting a bit to make it more readable.

Also, Is there any way you have an alt-account too because i feel like i have seen multiple bitlover(s)? I suppose you can declare alt-accounts at the forum to allow people to trust you easily.

FTFY Legendster..

I have had heisenberg read and merit a few of my posts. Not endorsing myself, LOL,  but I think his sense of judgement is fine..

Its really good to see this discussion. I agree with Heisenberg on the few members that he has identified. I think the problem is that the initial adopters from 2012-13 disappeared all of a sudden with the prospects of exchange bans etc. Like everything good that we get in this country, the initial few took crypto and mostly used it to fool the gullible among us. Well, i guess i should say the gullible AND Greedy. Serves them right probably.

The real issue is that no ecosystem evolved here at the Indian sub towards doing the stuff that mattered for crypto when it could. The main moderator Benson, started his own exchange until it went down because of the backstabbing friend. How many other crypto startups did we have in India which were something more than exchanges?? No trustworthy source for information on mining hardware and software, no discussion on P2P trades using crypto, No marketplace to speak of. I am yet to see anything of this sort. I will be glad to know if i am wrong but from what I have seen, the initiates didn't really do much in terms of spreading the love when it comes to Bitcoin.

For someone like me who joined in 2017-18, the crypto scene in India was a mad rush defined by greed and scams. Then came the ban hammers and people were scattered in the wind. No single person is responsible for this but the community as a whole that really didn't have anything to show in terms of contributions to BTC ecosystem as a whole. A few sprouts of ICO funded startups had near the Ethereum craze but died a quick death after the Banking regulations.

This has been the sad story of crypto so far in India. Like i said elsewhere, we just have to stay afloat now and see if there will be another crypto dawn to come. Till then, the forum is a good place to hangout and just discuss.
Good to know you guys. I am a small merit source and will be looking to distribute merit to newer accounts. I am sure our legendary friends don't need it. The problem is very few new members make merit-worthy posts.

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Another thing that i wanted to say was that, an Indian moderator doesn't really have to be fluent in a lot of languages. Most of the discussions are in English or conversational Hindi. What is needed is the conviction and commitment that the Indian community can actually get somewhere with crypto rather than just trying to make a fast buck.

We need far more developers, enthusiasts and artists than bloggers and community managers. The way this ecosystem evolved in the west is that there were well-meaning people and geeks who hoarded tens of thousands of BTC in the initial years. When the time came that BTC really grew up in value, they decided to start ways to spread it to other people (Buying coins, art, funding tech startups, hardware manufacturers etc.). The Indians who caught up early and hoarded these BTC, either started exchanges (Like our erstwhile community manager) or used it to earn money by P2P sales or trading.

This also is one of the main reasons that BTC is considered shady and a Ponzi in India. Most notably, after demonetization, when a lot of unscrupulous lawyers, doctors and "professionals" had no way of settling their hoarded cash, the BTC ambassadors spawned out to tier-2 cities and sold them BTC as a means to take care of their money. These people made a killing and some more as the prices boomed 4X.
The other major story involving BTC in India was from that Son of a bitch Bhardwaj who fooled people right, left and center with his cleverly designed websites.
The close-mindedness of Indian bureaucracy is legendary, yet we as BTC enthusiasts, we only have ourselves to blame for contributing to this negative image.

It was Ben Franklin who said, "Only two things are certain in life : Death and Taxes". Unfortunately for VGS, It turned out to be true.

There is hardly any place on earth where you can run a business of this proportion and risk the taxman's ire. In his letter, VGS has said that he had taken certain "risks" and none of his employees had any role to play in it.
He sold shares to repay debt and all this while the taxman kept knocking. The stress of unpaid debt, liquidation of shares, attachment of shares by Tax authorities etc. led him to believe that he cannot turn the enterprise profitable despite his long efforts (Something he says in the opening of his letter).

It was probably this despairing realization which may have made him take such an extreme step. Crypto couldn't have saved him in this lifetime. Governments and regulators everywhere are tightening the screws. The most that you can do is to use bitcoin in a responsible manner, pay the taxes on your gains and stay afloat till this brewing storm passes over.

Btctalk name: amishmanish
Link to profile: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1107844
Rank: Sr. Member
Current post count: 720
Windice username: Will update
Wear appropriate signature: Done
Wear avatar: Done

I will update the Windice name soon as i get to a connection where i can access the website. Thanks for the consideration.

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I realized i don't fulfill quite a lot of requirements as wasn't frequenting the forum lately. Sorry for the trouble Yahoo!

This cycle of shootings and then the left and liberals heaping blame on firearms rather than the basic issues has become an unmistakably American trend now.
While the conservatives support firearms and seem to a know a lot about it, the specialty of left is stuff like Sex, Gender roles and Drugs. So much of American culture has become a running commentary on the role of these three things in the lives of millenials, teenagers, insecure 30-somethings and frustrated Middle agers. The music videos, movies, netflix all filled with this stuff. (That is why something like "Stranger Things" is so refreshing)

American culture has always celebrated righteous strength in its own uniquely, childlike way (Again, Strabger Things..). Somewhere along the way, it has lost the script to unnecessary teenage angst (George Carlin was so damn right about this) and Sexual discovery. The capitalists have ruined it for you guys in their never-ending quest to make profit out of Sex.

This is a gross oversimplification. That is not what happens when money changes hands due to "corrupt administration". It is not a case of "An individual" being forced/ pressurized. All such major scams are generally a mutual exchange between partners in cahoots.

The money that gets diverted is "Public Money". What suffers is Public Infrastructure, healthcare, education etc.

Yeah yeah. I should have known where this will go.. Not arguing with that.


Hmm. Everyone using BTC would mean putting public expenditure on a public blockchain. This would automatically result in accountability.

Yet, those with power will always find a way to get paid and they are inherently shielded by the nature of cryptocurrency.  So while bitcoin can solve the problem of Govt and Central Bank monopoly on the value of money, i think it creates additional problems when it comes to corruption. This is why it is easier to target it in a developing country like India.
But yes, targeting BTC for that is a typical diversionary tactic. Its not the tool but the intent of its use which is the problem here.


Mannnn! First, I don't really own that much. Second, I am not selling, no matter what you say..The discussion evolved and well, I concede this debate in your favor Banks.  Would you please get off that horse now??

I take it that you say so coming from the anti-taxation, anti-establishment school of thought. I don't have a problem with that as its debatable whether its a good thing or a bad thing. I think you have taken my "declare and track" statement to heart. I am obviously wrong to see that as an alternative. That was not my point though and i am quite sure that Bitcoin wasn't "designed" to support bribes and corruption.

If don't think this is the ONLY "State of Affairs" bitcoin is supposed to propagate. You should probably expand your horizons a bit. India has been a developing, over-populated country for several decades since its independence. The tendency to hoard ill-gotten cash has been the bane of development out here. From that viewpoint, the regulators/ Govt project cryptocurrency as simply another way of safely storing "Bribe money". The Govt. officials in India who amassed disproportionate assets had this "Swiss Bank" thing going on for the longest time.

Its a difficult problem to solve and a difficult propaganda to counter. Obviously not as simple as giving unsolicited advice about selling BTC. If you want to continue this discussion by doling out sermons from your high chair of libertarianism then you are welcome not to reply. If you can point out a way to better counter these obvious "perception issues" or know of an example where this was done then you are welcome Mr Banks.

To be fair, the argument for banning cryptocurrency use in India is too strong.

This has a lot to do with the history of Money Laundering and Tax evasion in India. Over the past decades tax evasion has been a huge issue in India. People simply do not declare real income. To do this, cash as a means of transaction used to be encouraged in India by small traders, real estate dealers etc in order to obfuscate the trail of money.

A lot of money pumped into Central Govt schemes used to find its way to middlemen through bribes. To rein this, a system of Direct Benefit Transfers was widely promoted by this Govt. This lead to reduction in the funds being funneled by middlemen. This is where the funds used in corrupt practices come into picture.
The demonetization that most people are crying about was in fact the time when cryptocurrency gained wide usage in India. It was sold by the early adopters as an easy option to convert undeclared cash into safe, untraceable value. Govt committees understand that cryptocurrency is an untraceable form of value. The immediate use case in India would be for corrupt practices like bribes and undisclosed income. They don't want to get into the nuances of having it declared and then tracking them. Banning seems to be the simplest way to go about it.

This will be really bad for enthusiasts like me.

Totally agree with figment-of-my-ass too. It has a way of knowing when something is wrong..no pun intended!

Wind_Fury gave a simple, basic definition. The highlighted part is the part open to interpretation depending on which side you want to take. Franky keeps doing his "I owe you" thing. Hope i can get some understanding from this clash.

The bitcoin that get "locked up" in a multisig addresses are there to create "channel capacity". These Bitcoin are recognized and settled on the Bitcoin chain by opening/ closing transactions. So, i think unlike what franky keeps insisting, there really is bitcoin involved and not some separate coin. While this channel is open, the two parties agree to update their respective ledgers in a P2P manner without having to ride the main chain. This helps in micropayments and you avoid paying the higher fees.

Maybe, the basic point of contention here is "Channel capacity". The funding transaction to receive a payment is the first step of this "chicken and egg" problem. This isn't such a big issue when you want to spend though.


Franky you have based your argument on two things:
1. Insisting on calling HTLC an IOU document and
2. Introduction of msat/ miilisat.

The non-dramatic view on msat is that it is LN's answer to the apprehension that 1 Satoshi would be too much for micropayments if BTC price gets high enough to save Good'ol John from eating his dick on live TV. Calling it a separate coin is disingenuous and misleading. This maybe your understanding of course, and you may feel strongly about it because of the scaling debate going the LN way.

Its not an IOU because receiving/ sending LN payments does not mean you are receiving/ sending debt. At any point, the amount i can receive is limited by the "channel capacity". Please correct me if this is wrong.

also, the full dev-quote on the msat thing is:

It doesn't mean that LN payments cannot be settled, it only means that if the channel partners desire to settle, it will be rounded to nearest Satoshi. (lower value of course)

Bitcointalk Profile Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1107844
Current amount of posts (Including this one):715 + 1
SegWit BTC Address: bc1q58fyah8t0k3qz8u66g33ryl3x6d4n809p8hckf
Amount of EARNED merit in the last 120 days: 24

Total Earned merit since T-0 (introduction of merit): 226
Looks like I had some of my posts deleted as the post count in my earlier application was 721..Is the notification on post deletion not working anymore? I remember getting notifications earlier.

Well, Here is hoping for the best!

Bitcointalk Profile Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1107844
Current amount of posts (Including this one):721 + 1
SegWit BTC Address: bc1q58fyah8t0k3qz8u66g33ryl3x6d4n809p8hckf
Amount of EARNED merit in the last 120 days: 24

I originally applied and it was a pretty close call the last two times. Hope i can get in this time..

You say it has affected various sectors badly and then you go on to list Banking. Demonetisation didn't affect banking negatively but positively by bringing another huge swathe of population into the banked category. It also helped the liquidity issue in one stroke without the need ti devakue the currency by "printing" more money.

Next you talk about medical. Sure it hit those hospitals that make millions by cash transactions. Real estate is another such sector. Look how real estate prices dropped as it became difficult to trade in "cash" and inflate land value.
People support DeMo because of these positive effects including bringing more people into the taxation fold. Short term pains for long term gains.

You said you have personal experiencd to share about the pains of DeMo. It'd be great if you can share the details if its not a privacy issue for you.