Bitcoin Forum
February 18, 2020, 12:42:49 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.19.0.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [OUTDATED] The Lightning Network FAQ  (Read 2830 times)
d5000
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2366
Merit: 1687


Decentralization Maximalist


View Profile
April 24, 2019, 07:12:56 PM
 #41

research thor turbo.  hint. opening channels of pegged token that dont even have an equivlent onchain confirmed funding
I've looked at Thor Turbo (still superficially, may have to re-read) but I think what you write is incorrect.

Even if there were "eternally unconfirmed" Lightning Turbo channels where "coins" have been moved before confirmation, this only affects the Bitcoin balance of the channel created by the unconfirmed transaction. Gains and losses for the involved parties would equalize, and all other channels would continue to be backed by confirmed transactions.

There is no possibility of fractional banking or "creating coins out of thin air" with this scheme, imo.

1582029769
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582029769

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582029769
Reply with quote  #2

1582029769
Report to moderator
1582029769
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582029769

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582029769
Reply with quote  #2

1582029769
Report to moderator
1582029769
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582029769

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582029769
Reply with quote  #2

1582029769
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1582029769
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582029769

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582029769
Reply with quote  #2

1582029769
Report to moderator
Khaos77
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 420
Merit: 68

Flag Day ☺


View Profile
April 25, 2019, 02:56:43 AM
 #42

research thor turbo.  hint. opening channels of pegged token that dont even have an equivlent onchain confirmed funding
I've looked at Thor Turbo (still superficially, may have to re-read) but I think what you write is incorrect.

Even if there were "eternally unconfirmed" Lightning Turbo channels where "coins" have been moved before confirmation, this only affects the Bitcoin balance of the channel created by the unconfirmed transaction. Gains and losses for the involved parties would equalize, and all other channels would continue to be backed by confirmed transactions.

There is no possibility of fractional banking or "creating coins out of thin air" with this scheme, imo.


I think you should reread what you wrote,
if some transactions never confirmed that is the very essence of a fractional reserve.  Smiley
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fractionalreservebanking.asp
Quote
Fractional reserve banking is a banking system in which only a fraction of bank deposits
are backed by actual cash on hand and are available for withdrawal.

If 100% of the LN offchain IOUs are not redeemable to an onchain coin network, then LN is a fractional reserve.

franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 25, 2019, 04:32:47 AM
 #43

research thor turbo.  hint. opening channels of pegged token that dont even have an equivlent onchain confirmed funding
I've looked at Thor Turbo (still superficially, may have to re-read) but I think what you write is incorrect.

Even if there were "eternally unconfirmed" Lightning Turbo channels where "coins" have been moved before confirmation, this only affects the Bitcoin balance of the channel created by the unconfirmed transaction. Gains and losses for the involved parties would equalize, and all other channels would continue to be backed by confirmed transactions.

There is no possibility of fractional banking or "creating coins out of thin air" with this scheme, imo.

research further
you can 'buy' balance using coinbase user account balance (no onchain tx)

also when you look into factories... HTLC's.. ln not being a consensus/blockchain network.. and the fact that the HTLC contracts are not even community audited thus can be made out of thin air. you will see that things are not as network wide fixed/ruled as you think


I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Wind_FURY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 870


Crypto-Games.net: Multiple coins, multiple games


View Profile
April 25, 2019, 07:24:29 AM
 #44

again windfury offers no code, no dev quotes, no stats.... just social drama and insults that just narrow down to "wrong coz franky" which is laughable, weak and empty of any valid counter argument.


But what you offer is claims that you did all the "research", and post all the confusing techno-babble, but end up with "there are IOU pegged promises to pay tokens in Lightning". There are none.

Are you really that of a moron? Or do you believe everyone reading that are gullible morons?


Ok wind_fury, let's get one thing straight,
you are the biggest moron in all of btctalk.
Your inability to understand the simplest concepts , is beyond asinine.


You don't need to get things straight, I AM THE BIGGEST MORON in Bitcointalk.

Newbies, listen to franky1, and Khaos77. Welcome to your Bitcoin journey. Cool

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█████████████████▄
▄████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀▀████▄
████▀██████▀█▀██████▀████
██████████████████████████
▐█████▄███████████████▄█████▌
▐███████▄▄█████████▄▄███████▌
▐██████▀█████████████▀██████▌
▐███████████████████████████▌
▀██████████████████████▀
▀████▄████▄▀▀▄████▄████▀
▀███████▀███▀███████▀
▀▀█████████████▀▀
  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
|
★.★.★   8 GAMES   ★   WAGERING CONTEST   ★   JACKPOTS   ★   FAUCET   ★.★.★
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀█▀█▄

 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄██▀▄█▄
██▀▄███
 ▀▄▄▄▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ █ ██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀▄▄▄▀▄
█▀▀▀▀▄█
 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀   ▀▄
█  █▄ █
 ▀▄██▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▀ █ ▀
▀▀▄▀▀
 ▀▄█▄
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
|
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 25, 2019, 02:56:05 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 03:31:08 PM by franky1
 #45

msats are not techno babble
its a word for a economic unit of measure thats 12 decimals. which the bitcoin network does not accept or recognise.
its a word for a economic unit of measure thats 12 decimals. which the LN network does accept and recognise.
nothing technical or babbly about it

windfury without you doing any research or learning, you keep repeating how you think there are no pegged tokens or iou's
but your lack of knowledge is just digging yourself a hole and not proving a point. in the end there is no point you repeating your mis-information because you have not even bothered or tried to check on reality

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Khaos77
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 420
Merit: 68

Flag Day ☺


View Profile
April 25, 2019, 05:07:36 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 05:21:50 PM by Khaos77
 #46

I AM THE BIGGEST MORON in Bitcointalk.

Sadly, that is the only thing you ever get right.   Tongue

Your refusals to read or even google to learn what is really going on, is one of your biggest flaws.

It is bad enough , that you are the biggest moron , but it is your refusal to read/learn that keeps you that way.


One last time : LN is an IOU system.
Quote
https://cryptobriefing.com/litecoin-not-bitcoin-will-drive-the-lightning-network/
Quote
the Lightning Network is an exchange of instant, peer-to-peer IOUs

https://blog.theabacus.io/lightning-network-2-0-b878b9bb356e?gi=9571dcb5373d
Quote
when you get a Lightning payment?
Quote
you could think of it as a Bitcoin IOU

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gyw9aq/wtf-is-the-lightning-network-and-will-it-save-bitcoin
Quote
a payment channel is just a running list of IOUs




d5000
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2366
Merit: 1687


Decentralization Maximalist


View Profile
April 25, 2019, 05:39:30 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 07:49:52 PM by d5000
 #47

I think you should reread what you wrote,
And you should re-read the second part of the sentence you marked in red Wink

Quote
If 100% of the LN offchain IOUs are not redeemable to an onchain coin network, then LN is a fractional reserve.
This isn't the case imo. The "coins" in the unconfirmed channel are only of relevance for the relation between the people that have opened the channel between them. For the Bitcoin blockchain network, they don't exist, and for the Lightning network as a whole they're irrelevant.

Example: If node A and B open an unconfirmed channel via Thor Turbo and node B is connected via C to other nodes with regular channels based on confirmed transactions, then every payment done by A, from the point of view of the network, simply converts into a payment done by B. A can only pay if B provides the necessary liquidity in the B<->C channel.

So even if B was a "bank", it couldn't create coins out of thin air - it has to provide all necessary coins for payments in the "real" Bitcoin network.

research further
you can 'buy' balance using coinbase user account balance (no onchain tx)
You are referring to this issue (coinbase as a "leaf node"), right?

This has nothing to do with LN - it's basically what all exchange/wallet services that offer an internal "transfer to user" option can do. It would only become an issue if Coinbase (and similar services) was/were to bundle the majority of all Bitcoin users.

Quote
also when you look into factories... HTLC's.. ln not being a consensus/blockchain network.. and the fact that the HTLC contracts are not even community audited thus can be made out of thin air. you will see that things are not as network wide fixed/ruled as you think
Is that a bad thing? And "the community" could always offer alternative Lightning solutions, if some LN wallet devs take decisions not desired by them.

franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 25, 2019, 09:45:27 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 10:56:01 PM by franky1
 #48

research further
you can 'buy' balance using coinbase user account balance (no onchain tx)
You are referring to this issue (coinbase as a "leaf node"), right?

This has nothing to do with LN - it's basically what all exchange/wallet services that offer an internal "transfer to user" option can do. It would only become an issue if Coinbase (and similar services) was/were to bundle the majority of all Bitcoin users.
nope. thats about coinbase running a service
im talking about a USER sending BITREFILL mysql balance of fiat, altcoin or btc.. emphasis mysql database balance, not blockchain tx. and then bitrefill just making a HTLC, again emphasis without needing tethered btc. but where the HTLC is measured in msats and is designated as a pegged btc
when the USER wants to settle. nothing is broadcast. but instead a request to factory(bitrefill) is made and its then upto bitrefill to reimburse the user in whatever amount was agreed. again this can be coinbase balance. thus not touching a blockchain.

what this means is LN is NOT defined/fixed to a blockchain, and its not even defined fixed to a coinbase account. anyone can write a htlc and a partner can agree on it for any reason

also when you look into factories... HTLC's.. ln not being a consensus/blockchain network.. and the fact that the HTLC contracts are not even community audited thus can be made out of thin air. you will see that things are not as network wide fixed/ruled as you think
Is that a bad thing? And "the community" could always offer alternative Lightning solutions, if some LN wallet devs take decisions not desired by them.
getting free/discounted balance people are gonna turn down??
i know many people wear rose tint glasses, rainbow boxers and hug a stuffed unicorn when promoting LN.. but knowing the negatives is just or more important

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
WhyFhy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 560
Merit: 105


View Profile
April 25, 2019, 11:51:25 PM
 #49

Quote
Is that a bad thing? And "the community" could always offer alternative Lightning solutions, if some LN wallet devs take decisions not desired by them.

Here's the thing , To many people are stuck thinking that LN is a Alt, Service, or Fork. And hav'nt really checked it out I think its time to get #Loud & #Reckless and push more . It will be hellish for dev's at this point in time but might attract new devs and voluntary enthusiast/advocates.

Right now to much stuff is custodial since "everyday" user's are not opening channels/nodes.
 

d5000
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2366
Merit: 1687


Decentralization Maximalist


View Profile
April 26, 2019, 05:02:54 AM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 06:24:29 PM by d5000
 #50

im talking about a USER sending BITREFILL mysql balance of fiat, altcoin or btc.. emphasis mysql database balance, not blockchain tx. and then bitrefill just making a HTLC, again emphasis without needing tethered btc. but where the HTLC is measured in msats and is designated as a pegged btc
As I understood Bitrefill (have never used them, but just read their FAQ), their channels are purchased separately from the "channel transaction" - you send a transaction to them and then they open a channel with you, sending Bitcoins from their balance to you.

The way you pay that is irrelevant. They simply use the Bitcoins they own (e.g. those other users used for payments, and surely some reserves) to fund the channels. They charge a pretty hefty fee for the service (maybe financing their  channels partly with that), so I doubt I would use them just to check that out ...

If one can buy a channel via Coinbase balance then that probably simply means that Bitrefill also has a Coinbase wallet, so Coinbase user can send them MYSQL balances (as you call it). They may withdraw the coins from Coinbase if they need real Bitcoins, but that's something obviously hidden from the user.

If that's false, please send me a link where that issue is discussed. I for myself cannot find nothing strange.

Quote
when the USER wants to settle. nothing is broadcast. but instead a request to factory(bitrefill) is made and its then upto bitrefill to reimburse the user in whatever amount was agreed. again this can be coinbase balance. thus not touching a blockchain.
But then it's not Lightning but a simple Mysql wallet service. AFAiK "Thor" is a real lightning service where they send a transaction to an address you own. They require a "real" Bitcoin wallet for that.

Quote
what this means is LN is NOT defined/fixed to a blockchain, and its not even defined fixed to a coinbase account. anyone can write a htlc and a partner can agree on it for any reason
You can write any HTLC you want, but in the case there are no Bitcoins covering them, then nothing protects neither of both parties. But: HTLCs are between two parties, and only affect what happens between those two. Even if it's a group of users (=channel factories) then people outside of this group aren't affected. (I doubt someone would use a channel factory where the opening transaction isn't confirmed!).

In theory the Lightning software surely could be written in a way that you could route payments via an offchain channel opened with an unconfirmed transaction. But every LN sender could see that this channel is unconfirmed - I wouldn't use it as the HTLC protection in this case is non-existant.

Quote
i know many people wear rose tint glasses, rainbow boxers and hug a stuffed unicorn when promoting LN.. but knowing the negatives is just or more important
My opinion is still that LN isn't a service for every Bitcoin use case, but for small payments it should work well, as long as a channel can be opened and closed for a reasonable transaction fee.

Wind_FURY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 870


Crypto-Games.net: Multiple coins, multiple games


View Profile
April 26, 2019, 09:24:44 AM
 #51

msats are not techno babble
its a word for a economic unit of measure thats 12 decimals. which the bitcoin network does not accept or recognise.
its a word for a economic unit of measure thats 12 decimals. which the LN network does accept and recognise.
nothing technical or babbly about it

windfury without you doing any research or learning, you keep repeating how you think there are no pegged tokens or iou's
but your lack of knowledge is just digging yourself a hole and not proving a point. in the end there is no point you repeating your mis-information because you have not even bothered or tried to check on reality


I'm aware of "millisats", but it doesn't change the fact that there are no issuers of "IOU pegged promises to pay tokens" in Lightning. No one deposited something somewhere, and were issued something worthless. They are actual signed transactions by both participants of the channel than can be broadcasted and included in a block in a later time. It's like a smart contract between two people.

Where is the issuer of IOUs there??

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█████████████████▄
▄████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀▀████▄
████▀██████▀█▀██████▀████
██████████████████████████
▐█████▄███████████████▄█████▌
▐███████▄▄█████████▄▄███████▌
▐██████▀█████████████▀██████▌
▐███████████████████████████▌
▀██████████████████████▀
▀████▄████▄▀▀▄████▄████▀
▀███████▀███▀███████▀
▀▀█████████████▀▀
  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
|
★.★.★   8 GAMES   ★   WAGERING CONTEST   ★   JACKPOTS   ★   FAUCET   ★.★.★
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀█▀█▄

 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄██▀▄█▄
██▀▄███
 ▀▄▄▄▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ █ ██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀▄▄▄▀▄
█▀▀▀▀▄█
 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀   ▀▄
█  █▄ █
 ▀▄██▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▀ █ ▀
▀▀▄▀▀
 ▀▄█▄
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
|
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 26, 2019, 10:05:10 AM
 #52

I'm aware of "millisats", but it doesn't change the fact that there are no issuers of "IOU pegged promises to pay tokens" in Lightning. No one deposited something somewhere, and were issued something worthless. They are actual signed transactions by both participants of the channel than can be broadcasted and included in a block in a later time. It's like a smart contract between two people.

Where is the issuer of IOUs there??


the issuer is the parties themselves. THEY create the HTLC themselves
HTLCs do NOT get treated like a bitcoin blockchain CLTV tx.
HTLC's do not broadcast to a blockchain

pegged token networks do not need a central company to make the tethered pegged tokens..
in LN anyone can make pegged tethered tokens.
in LN anyone can make tokens that are not pegged/tethered

the only reason some of the pegged tethered token networks use a central company to be the sole issuer instead of letting users do it themselves is about making a company accountable.
by not having a centralised issuer does not mean that pegged tokens dont occur. it just changes who is accountable

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
amishmanish
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 468



View Profile
April 26, 2019, 10:55:23 AM
Merited by Wind_FURY (5), DooMAD (2)
 #53

I know that it's not a perfect term because Lightning channels are really Bitcoins sent in a special 2-for-2 multisig address, that are sent back and forth peer to peer between its participants, and with all transaction records stored locally. But how would you call it?

bitcoins are locked on the bitcoin network in CLTV contracts. they never leave the bitcoin network
the bitcoin network always shows the UTXO on the blockchain as having X balance(sats)

Wind_Fury gave a simple, basic definition. The highlighted part is the part open to interpretation depending on which side you want to take. Franky keeps doing his "I owe you" thing. Hope i can get some understanding from this clash.

The bitcoin that get "locked up" in a multisig addresses are there to create "channel capacity". These Bitcoin are recognized and settled on the Bitcoin chain by opening/ closing transactions. So, i think unlike what franky keeps insisting, there really is bitcoin involved and not some separate coin. While this channel is open, the two parties agree to update their respective ledgers in a P2P manner without having to ride the main chain. This helps in micropayments and you avoid paying the higher fees.

Maybe, the basic point of contention here is "Channel capacity". The funding transaction to receive a payment is the first step of this "chicken and egg" problem. This isn't such a big issue when you want to spend though.

LN views this and creates pegged tokens in HTLC. these HTLC's are contracts that are in a different unit of account(msats)
the HTLC's are not broadcastable to bitcoins network. thats its pegged coin

LN payments are the HTLC's, renegotiating who owes what but are not settling up. thus its IOU


Franky you have based your argument on two things:
1. Insisting on calling HTLC an IOU document and
2. Introduction of msat/ miilisat.

The non-dramatic view on msat is that it is LN's answer to the apprehension that 1 Satoshi would be too much for micropayments if BTC price gets high enough to save Good'ol John from eating his dick on live TV. Calling it a separate coin is disingenuous and misleading. This maybe your understanding of course, and you may feel strongly about it because of the scaling debate going the LN way.

Its not an IOU because receiving/ sending LN payments does not mean you are receiving/ sending debt. At any point, the amount i can receive is limited by the "channel capacity". Please correct me if this is wrong.

also, the full dev-quote on the msat thing is:
Quote
MilliSatoshi are the native unit of the Lightning Network. A milli-satoshi
// is simply 1/1000th of a satoshi. There are 1000 milli-satoshis in a single
// satoshi. Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in
// milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native
// blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to
// the nearest satoshi.


It doesn't mean that LN payments cannot be settled, it only means that if the channel partners desire to settle, it will be rounded to nearest Satoshi. (lower value of course)

franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 26, 2019, 11:56:42 AM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 12:28:21 PM by franky1
 #54

th problem with widfury is he merges 3 questions/point into one sentance and when addressing the points he just changes the order of the points to try making it seem different but is him just repating himself

the 3 points are
tokens created . not using real bitcoin
the iou
who is a central issuer of such

so dealing with these 3 points separately.
1. Msats are a token NOT recognised by a blockchain thus LN is not using real bitcoin. bitcoins never leave the blockchain. Msat balance is created when a HTLC is created. Msats creation/utilisation are a token that doesnt even need to be tethered to a bitcoin transaction

2. the HTLC because its not an actual bitcoin asset but a different denomination/token. because its not even getting settled. HTLC's function is just to say who OWES who what, where by at a later date the parties then agree to settle the debt
EG i can put up a pair of $60 sneakers(shoes) up as collateral. and i and a friend can both agree to a HTLC of 1200000000msat total balance and then over time we agree on who owes who what. then at the endwhen one side shows they are owed th balance of a full pair of sneakers the person that is owed the sneakers gets them

to address amishmanish's query about 'limited by channel capacity'
the collateral does not have to be bitcoin locked transaction nor anythinglocked/community ruled/centrally accountable.
the msat balance(capacity) does not have to be locked tethered to anything
the msat balance(capcaity) can be increased/decreased at any point
a htlc of msats is just a 2 party IOU agreement, it's just a private agreement by those 2 parties. meaning as long as they agre to it whatever it is thats the iou agreement they are agreeing to.
 
which if you can trust that it will get settled, later on gets settled.. but no guarantee.
even converting a HTLC to a bitcoin CLTV tx (should the particular instance be based on btc collateral)
does not guarantee that the CLTV broadcast would get added to a block/confirm/settle up as desired.
so yes indeed the HTLC is a debt balancer of who owes what, whether there is collateral or not

3. seems winfury cant counter point 1&2 and is now trying to meander in the 3rd point pretending that pegged/tethered /collateral or uncollateralised tokens or iou's can only be created by central issuers. thus with his lack of knowledge/ ploy to be subtly saying there is no central issuer he believed that there can never be such a thing as pegged tokens/iou tokens/unpegged token creation. which is another flaw in how understanding.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Wind_FURY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 870


Crypto-Games.net: Multiple coins, multiple games


View Profile
April 27, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
 #55

I know that it's not a perfect term because Lightning channels are really Bitcoins sent in a special 2-for-2 multisig address, that are sent back and forth peer to peer between its participants, and with all transaction records stored locally. But how would you call it?

bitcoins are locked on the bitcoin network in CLTV contracts. they never leave the bitcoin network
the bitcoin network always shows the UTXO on the blockchain as having X balance(sats)

Wind_Fury gave a simple, basic definition. The highlighted part is the part open to interpretation depending on which side you want to take. Franky keeps doing his "I owe you" thing. Hope i can get some understanding from this clash.

The bitcoin that get "locked up" in a multisig addresses are there to create "channel capacity". These Bitcoin are recognized and settled on the Bitcoin chain by opening/ closing transactions. So, i think unlike what franky keeps insisting, there really is bitcoin involved and not some separate coin. While this channel is open, the two parties agree to update their respective ledgers in a P2P manner without having to ride the main chain. This helps in micropayments and you avoid paying the higher fees.

Maybe, the basic point of contention here is "Channel capacity". The funding transaction to receive a payment is the first step of this "chicken and egg" problem. This isn't such a big issue when you want to spend though.

LN views this and creates pegged tokens in HTLC. these HTLC's are contracts that are in a different unit of account(msats)
the HTLC's are not broadcastable to bitcoins network. thats its pegged coin

LN payments are the HTLC's, renegotiating who owes what but are not settling up. thus its IOU


Franky you have based your argument on two things:
1. Insisting on calling HTLC an IOU document and
2. Introduction of msat/ miilisat.

The non-dramatic view on msat is that it is LN's answer to the apprehension that 1 Satoshi would be too much for micropayments if BTC price gets high enough to save Good'ol John from eating his dick on live TV. Calling it a separate coin is disingenuous and misleading. This maybe your understanding of course, and you may feel strongly about it because of the scaling debate going the LN way.

Its not an IOU because receiving/ sending LN payments does not mean you are receiving/ sending debt. At any point, the amount i can receive is limited by the "channel capacity". Please correct me if this is wrong.

also, the full dev-quote on the msat thing is:
Quote
MilliSatoshi are the native unit of the Lightning Network. A milli-satoshi
// is simply 1/1000th of a satoshi. There are 1000 milli-satoshis in a single
// satoshi. Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in
// milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native
// blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to
// the nearest satoshi.


It doesn't mean that LN payments cannot be settled, it only means that if the channel partners desire to settle, it will be rounded to nearest Satoshi. (lower value of course)


Welcome to the "Stupid Club". Cool


3. seems winfury cant counter point 1&2 and is now trying to meander in the 3rd point pretending that pegged/tethered /collateral or uncollateralised tokens or iou's can only be created by central issuers. thus with his lack of knowledge/ ploy to be subtly saying there is no central issuer he believed that there can never be such a thing as pegged tokens/iou tokens/unpegged token creation. which is another flaw in how understanding.


I didn't "meander" anything, I simply NEVER agreed with you from the start about your claims that there are "IOU pegged promises to pay tokens" in the Lightning Network. What you cannot live with is that you're wrong, and everyone is starting to see that you're wrong. The same way I believed you and Jonald Fyookball about "big blocks are good", and discovered that Gavin, Mike Hearn, and Roger Ver had become malicious.

But I believe that I might have once agreed with you that Lightning was an "IOU system", and also learned that it's not. The hard way.

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█████████████████▄
▄████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀▀████▄
████▀██████▀█▀██████▀████
██████████████████████████
▐█████▄███████████████▄█████▌
▐███████▄▄█████████▄▄███████▌
▐██████▀█████████████▀██████▌
▐███████████████████████████▌
▀██████████████████████▀
▀████▄████▄▀▀▄████▄████▀
▀███████▀███▀███████▀
▀▀█████████████▀▀
  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
|
★.★.★   8 GAMES   ★   WAGERING CONTEST   ★   JACKPOTS   ★   FAUCET   ★.★.★
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀█▀█▄

 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄██▀▄█▄
██▀▄███
 ▀▄▄▄▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ █ ██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀▄▄▄▀▄
█▀▀▀▀▄█
 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀   ▀▄
█  █▄ █
 ▀▄██▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▀ █ ▀
▀▀▄▀▀
 ▀▄█▄
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
|
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 28, 2019, 11:09:08 AM
 #56

here you go again spewing out the "big blocks" stuff... you have been so spoonfed by your echo chamber that you dont even know whats real anymore.

i have never been in the "big block" camp. so it seems your buddies have ben whispering so much crap to you that you dont even know whats happening.

as for your research into LN/bitcoin. after months of u saying 'theres no iou' you have not even bothered to read code, use LN or anything. you cant even counter argue beyond just saying an empty claim of basically, 'wrong coz franky said it'

you have been given plenty of time to actually look into it. but you have refused. so that is a flaw on your part.
goodluck with your head in the sand mindset. but one day i hope you wake up

P.S
'wrong because gibberish'
'wrong because franky'
'wrong because techno babble'
are empty counter points that only proves you have not/cannot come up with a valid answer

if you ever want to counter someone. use stats, code, data. if you cannot. then just hold back from pressing the reply button until you can

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Wind_FURY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 870


Crypto-Games.net: Multiple coins, multiple games


View Profile
April 29, 2019, 06:05:16 AM
 #57

here you go again spewing out the "big blocks" stuff... you have been so spoonfed by your echo chamber that you dont even know whats real anymore.


Excuse me, every technical argument about big blocks are something that should be considered, and the reason why I brought that up was to prove a point that you sided with the people who have gone malicious, and wanted to undermine Bitcoin.

Quote

i have never been in the "big block" camp. so it seems your buddies have ben whispering so much crap to you that you dont even know whats happening.


Never? Then do you believe the Core developers were right to hold the hard cap to maintain small blocks? You were not debating for Bitcoin Unlimited?

Quote

as for your research into LN/bitcoin. after months of u saying 'theres no iou' you have not even bothered to read code, use LN or anything. you cant even counter argue beyond just saying an empty claim of basically, 'wrong coz franky said it'

you have been given plenty of time to actually look into it. but you have refused. so that is a flaw on your part.
goodluck with your head in the sand mindset. but one day i hope you wake up


I did, and what I found was that you are simply wrong. There are no "IOU pegged promises to pay tokens" in Lightning.

Quote

P.S
'wrong because gibberish'
'wrong because franky'
'wrong because techno babble'

are empty counter points that only proves you have not/cannot come up with a valid answer

if you ever want to counter someone. use stats, code, data. if you cannot. then just hold back from pressing the reply button until you can


You brought that on yourself. But I hope all the newbies listen to you and learn. The hard way.

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█████████████████▄
▄████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀▀████▄
████▀██████▀█▀██████▀████
██████████████████████████
▐█████▄███████████████▄█████▌
▐███████▄▄█████████▄▄███████▌
▐██████▀█████████████▀██████▌
▐███████████████████████████▌
▀██████████████████████▀
▀████▄████▄▀▀▄████▄████▀
▀███████▀███▀███████▀
▀▀█████████████▀▀
  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
|
★.★.★   8 GAMES   ★   WAGERING CONTEST   ★   JACKPOTS   ★   FAUCET   ★.★.★
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀█▀█▄

 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄██▀▄█▄
██▀▄███
 ▀▄▄▄▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ █ ██
 ▀▄▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀▄▄▄▀▄
█▀▀▀▀▄█
 ▀███▀
  ▄▄▄
▄▀   ▀▄
█  █▄ █
 ▀▄██▀
  ▄▄▄
▄█▀ ▀█▄
██   ██
 ▀█▄█▀
  ▄▄▄
▀ █ ▀
▀▀▄▀▀
 ▀▄█▄
  ▄▄▄
▄█ ▄▀█▄
██ ▄▀██
 ▀▄▄█▀
|
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 29, 2019, 07:43:24 AM
 #58

if you dont understand that Msats are pegged tokens
if you dont understand that HTLC's are just agreeing who owes who wht but a HTCL is not and will never 'settle'

then you have not learned anything about LN

as for your over meanders about bigblocks and altcoins.. my stand is about scaling BITCOIN. not deburdening BITCOIN and scaling alternative networks

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
DooMAD
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2254
Merit: 1451


Leave no FUD unchallenged


View Profile WWW
April 29, 2019, 11:28:18 AM
 #59

as for your over meanders about bigblocks and altcoins.. my stand is about scaling BITCOIN. not deburdening BITCOIN and scaling alternative networks

Please name the Bitcoin users who give the slightest shit about your stand.  You keep thinking that everyone agrees with you, so surely you'd have some idea of who some of those people might be, right?

For all your talk of doing what is best for Bitcoin, you do nothing but attack the path that users on the Bitcoin network have empirically chosen to follow.  I'd tell you to find some people who agree with your stand and form a network with them if you don't like how the people on this network have decided to go about scaling, but it's pretty obvious that anyone who might agree with you has already forked off to one of the altcoins you don't want us discussing.  If people are drawing comparisons between your stand and those altcoins, the reason for that is that your stand is not compatible with the rules other users on this network have chosen to enforce.  Your stand is empty, hollow, insubstantial and ineffective.  Your stand is not recognised or acknowledged by the Bitcoin network.  If you want a network that isn't "deburdened", there are other networks catering to your desires.

franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1629



View Profile
April 29, 2019, 03:14:48 PM
Last edit: April 29, 2019, 04:59:58 PM by franky1
 #60

as for your over meanders about bigblocks and altcoins.. my stand is about scaling BITCOIN. not deburdening BITCOIN and scaling alternative networks

Please name the Bitcoin users who give the slightest shit about your stand.  You keep thinking that everyone agrees with you, so surely you'd have some idea of who some of those people might be, right?

For all your talk of doing what is best for Bitcoin, you do nothing but attack the path that users on the Bitcoin network have empirically chosen to follow.  I'd tell you to find some people who agree with your stand and form a network with them if you don't like how the people on this network have decided to go about scaling, but it's pretty obvious that anyone who might agree with you has already forked off to one of the altcoins you don't want us discussing.  If people are drawing comparisons between your stand and those altcoins, the reason for that is that your stand is not compatible with the rules other users on this network have chosen to enforce.  Your stand is empty, hollow, insubstantial and ineffective.  Your stand is not recognised or acknowledged by the Bitcoin network.  If you want a network that isn't "deburdened", there are other networks catering to your desires.

typical mindset. you say 'find people that agree', which is your subtle a foolish mindset flip flop thinking that no one disagree's with cores roadmap. sorry but this very forum shows hundreds of people disliking the fee wars, transaction throughput limit and that cores roadmap is trying to deburden bitcoin while falsely advertising it as 'scaling bitcoin'.

your mindset is also foolishly thinking that if people dont want to deburden bitcoin, those people should leave the network and make another network.
it seems all you think as a solution for the bitcoin network is for people to stop using the bitcoin network.. (facepalm)
as for saying those that have opposed cores roadmap have forked off.. im sorry to inform you that core forked some opposition off the network by controversial splits. but them people do run a core node even if they dont like it.
just because cores software is the only on that satisfies all the requiremnts of bing a full validation/full archival criteria, does not mean those using it are core loyalists. it just means they dont want the drama of REKT campaigns and mor mandatory splits, so just give in

your belief that running a core node means adoration and loyalty is your flaw. and may you wake up and realise your foolishness one day.

blockchains and bitcoins are about progress through unity and agreement.(consensus).

if you think that all disagreements should result in totalitarian control and apartheid law. then please do yourself a favour and learn the invention satoshi made. learn the meaning definition of consensus, then learn about the byzantine generals theory and how that was solved. hint. a method of mutual agreement, not division and factions

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!