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221  Economy / Economics / Re: Accept Bitcoins only? on: August 12, 2013, 07:42:04 PM
If Bitcoin is a preferred payment mechanism, give a discount for using it equivalent to the convenience it gives you.
222  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Here come the MLM scams on: August 11, 2013, 09:00:08 PM
I tried explaining that to mom too.

Amway isn't paying her to market their goods, she's paying them to market their goods. It's backwards.

So it's a scam.

No, not a scam. Nothing is being mis-represented.

What is typically represented is how much you make out of it out of how much effort.  I doubt your mom would have signed up if she knew how little she was making.  I'm sure some recruiter told her about all these huge success stories where people made a ton.

These companies are basically scummy (not really scammy, although some make you pay up front a lot, which are more pure scams), where they basically rely on sellers to work for near free by putting social pressure on friends to buy from them.  Very few people have the proper connections to actually make anything out of them (which basically relies on having wide networks to recruit others), and it basically scams people to be employees for free.

It's a pretty successful model because there are lots of suckers out there (both those trying to get rich quick selling, and those who buy into the pressure to buy from friends).  My wife has had a huge part of her social network get involved in these, and there is a lot of pressure to buy from friends, even when the product is junk or overpriced.  The friends get a tiny cut, maybe enough to recoup costs plus a few bucks an hour, and the company gets rich.  At the very least scummy, with many that are pure scams.  It's probably more exploitative than scam, though.
223  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Got this risk message, can someone elaborate on the listentobitcoin malware? on: August 11, 2013, 08:55:23 PM
Make sure it's clear?  Reformat.
224  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: dont gamble at dice games on: August 11, 2013, 08:37:42 PM
I played satoshi dice, prime dice, and coindice

each of those companies  have larger bankrolls than you do, so they can play as long as you can, but you most likely would play until you lose... otherwise you would think you are not capitalizing on your potential.

gambling at those games is a loser market.

It is better to trade ltc to btc to alt coin and back. that is a better way to make money -- trading coins.

HEY GAIS, DONT PLAY CRAPS, ITS FOR SUCKERS.  INSTEAD, PLAY ROULETTE!
225  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do people trust in fiat money? on: August 11, 2013, 06:14:26 PM
I can't buy food with bitcoins.
I can't pay rent with bitcoins.
I can't buy gas with bitcoins.

These are the big three reasons.

Currently bitcoins can only purchase luxuries, not necessities. And before someone brings up Bitmit, I am not waiting days for my food to be delivered.

So you think people trust fiat money because they can use it to buy food/rent/gas? How about Euro then, you can't use it to buy these things in US either

You can buy those things, just in Europe.
226  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do people trust fiat money? on: August 11, 2013, 06:09:28 PM
This is a very interesting quesion since when people sell bitcoin for USD, it means they trust USD more than bitcoin

So why do people trust in fiat money, which is created out of nothing by the central banks?

Is it because they have no knowledge about money creation, or because their ignorance about the financial, or their respect/fear about the government enforcement?

One accept fiat money is because all the other merchant also accept fiat money as a payment medium, once this tradition established, it seldom changes

But this is only one reason, another reason might be that they regard fiat money as a safenet, backed by the government. Look at the FDIC rules, it just want to calm people from withdrawing their savings from banks and it worked very well

I think some kind of insurance should be built around bitcoin, to give people more confidence to handle the bitcoin. Saying this is backed by mathematics and network just scared most of them

I trust fiat because my entire life I have been able to spend it almost anywhere.  That's all that matters for currency.  Can you spend it today and in the future?

People have evolutionary reasons to not just randomly try new things with no track record.  That's why gradual changes are so prevalent and it's tough to introduce revolutionary ideas.  Society and people through trial and error find a lot of things that work, and it doesn't matter if they understand why it works or not.  People tend to get angrier around red things, for example.  They don't need to understand it.  It just served us well for a while.  There are societal customs that don't make sense, but people aren't about to change them or even question them.

Now there are times when superior ideas do come about and take a while to catch on.  Usually it takes some set of early adopters to test it out and prove it works, then more get on board.  This is the case with almost any new idea that ever happens.  And a lot of the time, the better ideas win out.

So trusting fiat will work until it doesn't.  No one needs to know why Bitcoin is superior.  Only the early adopters do.  The rest will follow along once they see it works and see some tangible ways.  They don't need to know how it works any different than knowing how an internal combustion engine works when they drive their car or how structural engineering works when they drive across bridges.  They see lots of cars driving down the street and across bridges and figure that's good enough.
227  Economy / Economics / Re: The motivations to purchase bitcoin on: August 11, 2013, 06:04:34 PM
To understand the motivations to purchase bitcoins, I would simply take a look at where people spend theit bitcoins. Which bitcoin-only businesses are currently booming?

1. The gambling industry
2. The drug marketplaces

This probably changes in the future when bitcoins start replacing Paypal. However, currently those are the two industries driving bitcoin adoption.

Pretty good take on things.  A lot of the gambling, however, comes from bored speculators IMO.  I don't know of many people buying Bitcoins to play Satoshi dice, but plenty of hoarders will play since there is nothing better to do.  This isn't to say there isn't some gambling going on where people are acquiring to gamble.

You'll notice the areas where Bitcoin thrives is where it can vastly outperform the other options.  Things like online retail just aren't that useful compared to the options.  A lot of people complain about the credit card fees that exist, but that gives you a lot of protection as a consumer and the cost of acquiring Bitcoins quickly makes it not useful for the non-Bitcoin hoarder.

For Bitcoin to succeed, it will first be in places where it vastly is superior.  Drugs and gambling it currently is vastly superior.  I'm surprised we haven't seen more on the porn side as well.  Once you have more widespread usage in these areas, expect the cost of acquiring Bitcoins to drop, thus making general economic activity more common.  It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem - you don't really use Bitcoin as a currency if there is nowhere to spend it, and you don't accept it because not many people are spending it with you.  If it starts becoming more widespread (say 10% of people use it for something, even if its just some niche use), then they will be much more willing to accept it.  Then small edges become more useful (sending money with Bitcoin to a friend would be easier than PayPal, etc..., but not if your friend has to go through an exchange to spend it or find some small site to spend it).

Find areas where people cannot buy things with traditional means (gambling, drugs of course, but what else?), and that's where you'll see it take off.
228  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Adding More Decimal Places To Bitcoin Would Be Printing More Money. on: August 09, 2013, 09:17:46 PM
By "more" bitcoin units I was not referring to more value, I was referring to more quantity of units available.

But I can now see what you guys are saying-- Proportionately, you would always have the same quantity in comparison to others, even if additional Bitcoin decimal places were added. You'd just be that much better off and would be allowing others to get into the bitcoin game as well.

As a side note in a social study of this thread, it's interesting (and sad) how bitter/savage some people were when "educating" or "correcting". For those who debated in a calm manner, I applaud you. For those that resorted to attacking or insulting, well... that's on you.



I understand OP's point of view, adding smallest unit of count gives a feeling that the total amount of the smallest money unit is increased, but as others pointed out, OP mixed base unit with a fraction of base unit. Anyway, OP's thread is very interesting

If you are designing a currency system to cope with an expanding economy, you have two choices: Either fix the value of base unit and add more and more base unit (today's fiat money system); or fix the total amount of base unit, and add more and more value for each base unit

If people are used to a floated currency value, either way will work, but the beneficiaries of these two systems are different: In the first system it is the new money creator and those who get money from money creator, in the second system it is anyone who save money
Very well said and diplomatic of you. I also think it's interesting to think about and talk about all aspects of Bitcoin.

If you were looking for education, maybe ask a question instead of make a bold (and dumb) proclamation as a thread title.
229  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Old people, how did you protect purchases before widespread use of credit cards? on: August 09, 2013, 09:15:24 PM
I have noticed a number of threads in the hardware forum where people are advising others to not buy any equipment with bitcoins. Only use paypal, credit card, etc.. so that you have recourse if the supplier does not deliver a product on time.

If miners are unwilling to purchase equipment using bitcoins, it seems to be a bad sign for the entire bitcoin ecosystem.
So I started to wonder, what did people do before debit and credit cards were widespread?
Mail order goods have been around since before credit cards. Did people simply put money in an envelope and hope for the best? Was there any sort of protection or recourse for consumers who did not get their product?

What can we learn from the old timey cash economy and apply it to a bitcoin economy?

Perhaps the real problem is just the arms race to get better equipment before everyone else and ensure you get a return.
This could result in people simply making the unwise choice of sending off bitcoins before it might be appropriate to do so.

Escrow services for large purposes will be needed for these kinds of transactions.  For small transactions or places with very trustworthy businesses, you don't escrow.  Very simple system, just the Bitcoin economy is not mature enough to really have anyone fill this need.
230  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Adding More Decimal Places To Bitcoin Would Be Printing More Money. on: August 09, 2013, 07:53:46 PM
People read this kind of drivel and post threads like "Isn't the Bitcoin Community really Smart?"  LOL @ them.
231  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Transaction fees are set by core developers, not by the market on: August 09, 2013, 07:52:20 PM
Satoshi's client doesn't allow to set arbitrary fee (0.00000001 BTC for example) via interface. WTF?

Whether or not to use Satoshi's client is decided by the market.  Game over.
232  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin? on: August 08, 2013, 11:42:46 PM
The more minors the better.

If there is a flaw in Bitcoin ASICS have exposed it... concentrating too much control in too few hands.

Someone needs to create a Bitcoin fork that solves this problem... insuring mining stays widely distributed over as many users as possible.


But they are selling the ASICs to the hands of many.  They can make more money selling to rubes than mining, and there goes your central distribution theory.
233  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin? on: August 08, 2013, 09:48:52 PM

Na, still zero fucks given about whether they are profitable or lose their ass.

I'm about the same.  I'm almost done trying to tell people that they are stupid for using GPUs on Bitcoin mining. 

Some people just can't read or something.  Anyone in a Bitcoin mining pool with a GPU is ignorant.  It's as simple as that!

If you have free hardware and free electricity, it can certainly work.  Most people entering mining are not good at actually accounting for if its a good idea, and plenty of people have been "lucky" through price increases to be bailed out on that decision.  I do spend very little time worrying about the miners, but it gives me a little bit of joy inside seeing people who thought they could get rich quick getting crushed.
234  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin? on: August 08, 2013, 08:31:10 PM
No need to be tough, just don't see why the survivor of GPU miners is important at all.  The GPU whiners are like the bloated labor unions whining that labor is going to China.  Oh so sad, you can't compete.  Go mine LTC or buy ASICs.

That sounds much better than "I give zero fucks"

Sounds like you give a few fucks, or at least an iota of a single fuck.  If you truely gave no fucks, then you wouldn't have felt the need to say so... FUCK.

Na, still zero fucks given about whether they are profitable or lose their ass.
235  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin? on: August 08, 2013, 08:27:11 PM
Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin, as the ASIC manufacturers dump their hashrate and bleed GPU miners out of profitability?

I give zero fucks about GPU miners.

Tough guy is tough.

No need to be tough, just don't see why the survivor of GPU miners is important at all.  The GPU whiners are like the bloated labor unions whining that labor is going to China.  Oh so sad, you can't compete.  Go mine LTC or buy ASICs.
236  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin? on: August 08, 2013, 08:26:11 PM
I've been thinking about buying this:

http://www.amazon.com/computers-accessories/dp/B007ZWFKX8

and then buying one ASIC a month. Not to profit, just because I can and it would help distribute the mining. Hell maybe even set up bitcoin foundation as recipient.

GPU mining is something I can't do. My air conditioner in summer doesn't keep up, the extra heat from a box full of GPUs and the power supply to feed them I just can't do.

ASIC mining is something I can do.

GPU mining took the ability for many common people to mine away, ASIC is giving it back.
I don't need a power consuming tower and cards to do ASIC mining.

In the long run the power consumption and generated heat will be as much as with GPU mining, as everybody will be stacking up chips.

Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on so many variables it's hard to tell for sure.  But you get more Th/Watt, which is a good thing.
237  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin? on: August 08, 2013, 08:24:00 PM
Do you think people pulling out of mining is good for Bitcoin, as the ASIC manufacturers dump their hashrate and bleed GPU miners out of profitability?

I give zero fucks about GPU miners.
238  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Implementing Oracle Contracts - Feedback Requested on: August 08, 2013, 12:54:50 AM
I have updated my repository with the latest updates, including using OP_HASH160 instead of OP_RIPEMD160:
https://code.google.com/r/allenpiscitello-oracle2/

I still have a substantial effort to clean up the code and actually put most of the contract and redemption creation as part of the standard library rather than as a test case, but I expect to start on that shortly and actually integrate it.  Then on to the protocol and test application!
239  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Implementing Oracle Contracts - Feedback Requested on: August 07, 2013, 09:59:06 PM
I'd really like to make some type of youtube video animated presentation on it with voiceovers and all, but that is completely new territory for me, so I may have to settle for something basic.  Although the test app is much more important to have for people to play with.  I've made a lot of progress quickly with the prototyping, but making a real app, even if a bit clunky and ugly, will be more work, especially since I'm just working on this stuff only a few hours a week in my free time.
240  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Chess and gambling on: August 07, 2013, 09:39:54 PM
P.s. strategy (online) games are far harder to turn into a viable and steady way of playing 4 money than (online) gambling. It all becomes programmers/coders battles.

There are some strategy games that don't really have this problem.  Go and Hex both fit the bill (I'm sure there are others).  There are active AI groups for both of these games but the top level, even with serious computing power, falls significantly below strong amateur human play.  As a bonus, Go is quite popular in Asia and gambling is very popular (and usually legally grey).


Isn't hex entirely solved?

Pure skill games suck for gambling, though.  You need a lot of variance, at least, which is why backgammon is at least somewhat better.  You need a healthy supply of people who are playing at a loss to fund players at the top, and players at the bottom simply will not play if they keep getting destroyed.  They at least need the illusion of having a chance of winning against anyone.  Look at how many people make a living playing chess (besides giving lessons) vs. those that make a living playing poker.  Backgammon has a significant luck element where a poor player can upset a good player, but the good player has a large advantage.  If I played a grandmaster in chess, I would have < .001% chance of winning.  If I played a world class poker player for an hour, I would have at least a 1% chance of winning money against him, and likely much more.  If I played chess against a player 10 percentile points ahead of me in chess, he still would likely win each game 95% of the time, but in poker it might drop down to 60% (depending on the game).
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