The governments haven't really started confiscating yet but they are planning to[1][2].


My mea culpa upthread was to acknowledge that Bitcoin has virtues and will continue.

I am not positing a total annihilation of Bitcoin by an anonymous protocol coin. Rather in this poll I am asking if there is any interest in such experimentation.

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I kindly request that the same detractors please stop posting for a while so we can hear from some others. You've had your opportunity to make your points. You don't get to continue ad nausea. If you don't comply, I will close the thread, because I don't want to waste all my time here in this thread arguing with the same 3 guys. This thread is a marketing survey and I need to hear from as many people as possible.

This is obnoxious, tiring, and wasteful.

If you need to rebutt, please try to make it two or three sentences, then I will let you have the last word on our debate.


Compare the true story:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=365141.msg9666280#msg9666280

To the Wikipedia version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_A._Armstrong&oldid=630836560


The fact is that Europe's debts exceed its income by a horrific margin. So Europeans aren't working enough and are taking too many benefits.

Arguing over pedantic semantics about data won't change that undeniable fact.


I never claimed the USA wasn't fucked up before Obama. Socialism has been growing in the USA since at least FDR's New Deal in the 1930s.

Europe is also royally fucked up too by socialism. I know you think it is all the hydra of the US military killing machine that is the main problem in the world today. Europeans have been indoctrinated to believe that and ignore their own horrific bankruptcy.

And it is lying with for example the case of Belgium where people are paid to not work and discouraged from working. And it omits data on Norway, because Wikipedia doesn't want to admit it is only 33 hours. Wikipedia is often a disinformation vehicle of the powers-that-be when it comes to social issues.


You will not be able to refute it, because it is a fact. Belgium operates the way I have stated. There are ways to be paid for not working starting about age 50 (I know I saw the government documents and checks my friend receives) and the "black work" is very much prevented. Why don't you actually do some research so you can know what is going on in the world.

In the USA, we have long-term unemployment assistance and corrupt disability claims which achieve a similar but not as thorough result.


$128 trillion in unfunded social welfare liabilities:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/01/17/you-think-the-deficit-is-bad-federal-unfunded-liabilities-exceed-127-trillion/

I know you Europeans think the only problem in the USA is that we are in debt because of our military. You all think we waste our deficits on the military and we don't have a glorious social welfare program as you do. Fact is Obama has been doing a good job of emulating your megadeath-directed system, as he has reduced (inflation adjusted) military budgets (which means we can't defend your ass against Russia) and still managed to run $1 trillion annual deficits with for example 57 million Americans on food stamps.

You try to argue that your social welfare systems are not bankrupting you, hahahaha. DELUSIONAL.

STFU you fool.

Not when anonymous decentralized cash is gone and all we have remaining is non-anonymous centralized block chain that tracks every thing we do.

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I can't understand why any rational human would say it is not okay for us to experiment with anonymity?? Why would the detractors be against us trying to improve and provide other technologies which you can optionally use if you want to??

Are detractors that afraid of their Bitcoin investment that they can't tolerate freedom to innovate??

The Euro tied you all together in a horrific conundrum as I explained to you before, thus yes one can make the claim that France is Europe, but any way I don't need to make that claim in order to refute you.


That work week data is hilariously inaccurate and sanguinely non-informational. Not very many serious career Americans nor Japanese work only 40 hours per week and are often not paid hourly so there is no "overtime".

http://wdsm710.com/news/articles/2014/may/08/end-of-oil-boom-threatens-norways-welfare-model/


The retirement age data you provided is also nonsense. Consider the following detailed information.

Even this listing of benefits by country is incomplete, because for example I have a friend from Belgium and he explained to me how he was paid by the government starting from age 50 to not work and the government discourages him from working as a painter, because he has to be registered with the government for each job and location he wants to work. Otherwise it is called "black work" and he can be fined or jailed. The government has an incentive payment program to reward the people to spy on each other and report "black work".


Can you even learn to do fact checking before you make feeble posts?

You are young and inexperienced. That should be accompanied with humbleness and a desire to learn from people who are older and have more experience and knowledge than you do.

Please don't waste more of my scarce time with more idiotic posts.


The USA doesn't have long-term unemployment payments, Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare, HUD assisted housing, 57 million on food stamps, since Obama $1 trillion annual budget deficits every year, etc.  

The white Caucasian Germany today is not (yet!) Nazi Germany of the 1940s. The white Asian China today is not (yet!) Mao's 57 million executed killing fields that it was. The brown Asian Cambodia today is not (yet!) Pol Pot's genocide that it was. The white Caucasian British never considered black Africans to be humans in the Boer Wars atrocities. The white Caucasian Americans have caused the genocide of at least a million innocents in the Middle East.

The list goes on and on...

Westerners are smug in their 80 years of uninterrupted peace domestically (propped up by central banks which never let the debt default and contract), but this is coming to an end and before 2020 they will be reunited with the horror of government (as the insane level of debt comes imploding down into economic destitution).

Incorrect. There is no centralized ledger of serial numbers that tracks each exchange of cash notes.


Correct.


That doesn't make Bitcoin equivalent to cash in terms of anonymity, because in Bitcoin the proof-of-ownership is not the decentralized possession of a physical evidence as it is cash, but rather being able to cryptographically sign a key which is digitally verified against a centralized public ledger (albeit decentralized consensus, there is only one, mulitiply-referenced instance of the ledger, thus centralized) which is fully traceable and linkable.

You mentioned the physical exchange of Bitcoin private keys implying these are equivalent to cash, but you failed to realize that you have no protection against a double-spend in that case because the transfer hasn't been recorded on the centralized ledger and thus the entity formerly in possession can transmit a cryptographic spend before the new entity who is possession does! Whereas cash doesn't have a double-spend threat (other than counterfeiting which affects the entire society proportionally, not disproportionately you individually), because the proof-of-ownership is being in possession of the decentralized physical note.

This is why Bitcoin can not be decentralized without anonymity.

You can blabber mouth until you are blue in the face, but you can't change that fucking reality with the drooling.

It is one of the hallmarks of Dunning-Kruger wannabes that they see some common trait between two phenomena and then proclaim the two phenomena are equivalent. As if analogy makes them smart. Sorry. No it makes it obvious they are stupid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect


Yeah I assumed everyone could understand the difference between decentralized cash and a centralized ledger. Now I realize I had to explain it.

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It is Cryptonote, not cryptocoin. You have no mathematical nor logical clue about what you blabber about. You can carry on with your erroneous UNtechnical, n00b assumptions.

We experts need to ignore people like you who are unwilling to learn.

jonald_fyookball,

Not confronting the government has never stopped them from extracting every ounce of power, tribute, and servitude they can get.

Partial anonymity is an oxymoron.

There has always been a war between the individual and the State. Before we had cash which was anonymous. Next if don't have anonymity because cash is replaced with non-anonymous Bitcoin, the human race is fucked.

I understand you may have a different opinion. That is why this is a poll, not a sermon.

franky1,

Given your reply it is clear you don't even know the technical meaning of the terms untraceability and unlinkability. Try reading the Cryptonote whitepaper and educating yourself before you blabber more nonsense.

Totally false and opposite of reality.

You don't understand the Knowledge Age.

Your mind is still suck in the worthless dinosaur paradigm of the resource scarcity Industrial Age.

My prior post wasn't directed at you. You've been quite reasonable.

Good riddence. You continue to post off topic nonsense. For example (and there are many more), without on chain anonymity it is impossible to have robust untraceability and unlinkability no matter what anonymity techniques you do off chain. That you don't understand this, shows you are not technically qualified to blabber (which we already proved in the thread linked from the OP), but yet you do foam at the mouth any way with lies such as "you changed the title thus you are moving closer to my position". Liar. I changed the title because I realized it was possible to achieve the same level of pool centralization we have now within the proposed anonymity paradigm. Typical ignorant politician, all you know how to do is lie and fool the constituents. You lack technical ability.

franky1 I wouldn't want an idiot like you any where near me. I am thus grateful you voted 'no'. Do I need to say it more clearly? You are a Dunning-Kruger blabber mouth dolt who lies and debates disingenuously.

The reason the dark coins have failed (if they have) is because they suck. I don't write software that sucks. We can start with the fact that they don't solve any use case (neither does Bitcoin but it did solve the delusion use case and was first). They don't make transactions faster. They have block chain bloat (Monero) or they are subject to Sybil attack on master nodes (DarkCoin).

I (as AnonyMint) have long ago stated that from a marketing perspective anonymity alone was not a sufficient use case for a crypto-currency.

What you haven't realized is that I proposed a use case that could skyrocket the demand for an anonymous coin. And it is good you failed to realize this. Carry on ignoramus. Nothing for you here.

cryptogeeknext,

Brave the New World. You are the company, don't enslave your potential in your fear. The antithesis of risk and profit, is insured poverty and failure. You are most likely European and have been indoctrinated by the culture and school system to believe you can't prosper without the government (or unlikely very young and a recent product of Obama education system). You will soon (couple more years to go) learn that all governments are bad (it takes a while for the accumulated damage to manifest in ways you can recognize from inside the system). Governments can only interfere with the free market. The free market is optimization, because simulated annealing is nature's only known optimization method for dynamic systems where no limits on diversity are known a priori.

Without failure, there can not exist success. Without white, black can not exist. Uniform distributions have no change, thus don't exist (aren't alive). Diversity is beautiful.

Sorry to be so closed minded on this. I know you are trying to be amicable and open discussion oriented. You are intelligent and articulate. It is what you've been taught that has influenced your understanding.


Edit: the fact that many people think that government is necessary is precisely why we need anonymity, so that another person's ideas can't force me to adhere to their chosen failure mode. I will be sovereign if I can make your government impotent against me. You will then have no right to force me to be included in your preferred tax and spend master plan. I will have the power to disagree, instead of being your slave.


I will say these opinions as loud as possible, and if encourages more downvotes, much better. We need to know realistically if there is any sanity out there.


There is no limit to the damage government can do if they are not limited by technologies such as anonymity. We always had anonymity. It was here-fore known as "cash". You take away that feature of society with non-anonymous electronic money, and the government will be unchecked in power and they will murder every single person on earth.


Edit#2: the government tasks you with paying your taxes. The multi-national corporations capture the government via regulatory capture. You are squeezed. With anonymity, they can't control you with their forced slave labor tax. You then have time to work for yourself, you innovate faster than the slow moving dinosaur corporations, driving them to extinction.  Nothing in the universe is sustainable and constant. The fundamental matter of our universe is change. If you expect that, you will always chose insured failure over risky chances for success.

I don't understand the purpose of a watch since we always carry our smart phone?

I don't feel it is stylish to put unnecessary ornaments on my body. I can't go off sprinting spontaneously with that thing on my wrist it might fall off or is just annoying.

cryptogeeknext,

If anonymity requires us to give up collaboration and interaction, then we've failed to implement it properly.

For example, just because the government can't identify a transaction to tax it, doesn't mean the parties to the transaction can't know each other.

All prosperity is created in the private sector. They can still collaborate with anonymous transactions. This will be even more so as we move to the Knowledge Age economy, where for example you don't need to know the identity of the person you are collaborating with on some digital work project (programming, 3D printer designs, marketing, etc). One day those complex physical machines you mentioned will be designed collaboratively via online interaction and anyone can print any part on a 3D printer. You want a space shuttle, okay download the designs and print the parts and assemble it.

The government doesn't create any prosperity, it only takes some from one group and redistributes it to another group, and sells debt bonds to finance any short fall.

Transparency of government doesn't solve the problem that collectives consume more than they produce, because government is forced to promise what voters want to hear regardless of available resources. The government that promises less, gets voted out to replaced by the government that promises more.

Surely Europeans love all their benefits (e.g. 35 hour work weeks, 1 month paid vacations, free health care, free schooling, free natal for mothers, guaranteed retirements, inducements to stop working by age 50 or so, etc). And their governments are bankrupt because of it and will soon implode economically with great hardship on the people.

A gorgeous super intelligent female:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8EA_1YHztE (Brave the New World)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp6C4g23uYo (so you can learn about Russia)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f5gqROO2Zc (wow)

Part of the problem there is you have two powerful governments (USA and Russia) fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. So the Ukrainian people don't have enough military power to protect and enforce their collective will.

These powers are preventing Ukraine to split by language and culture and needs to probably be two countries.

So this is an example of the problem of a groups' collective military being too small. One long-range, idealistic solution is if the USA and Russia also adopt the "vote with your feet" and they reduce the size of their militaries to put a stop to this abuse of Ukraine. But the Russian people support Putin with 80% approval rating. But they support him because they are ignorantly trapped in top-down oligarch economy and haven't tasted decentralization. They were manipulated by the powers-that-be that funded the Bolshevik revolution (to bring communism to Russia) and then after the fall of USSR the powers-that-be awarded all the collectivized (from communism) national resources to a few well connected oligarches.

So the process of freedom from decentralization is going to have to first break down a lot of inertia.



I agree with you that decentralization technology must improve matters, because empowering the individual always does improve prosperity because decentralization has more degrees-of-freedom, i.e. is more efficient.

I don't think we will have decentralization without anonymity, because otherwise the government can regulate what it can find (all the details of how this entirely plausible is covered in the links from the OP of this thread). That is why I remain diligent in my stance on this forum.

Government provides the service of promising more than it can collect in taxes. And the people always love it. Again this is an IRON LAW of Political Economics. This can never change because it is human nature. Everybody loves something for nothing. And politicians are expert at telling them it is plausible. Since Mesopotamia humans have been falling for it. And they will be falling for it for eternity.

The only escape is anonymity where the socialism can't extract its horrible nature from you.

Putting every transaction on the block chain does nothing to stop the government from borrowing money. It does nothing to stop kickbacks from government transactions. Are you going to prevent every contractor's employee from using an anonymous coin?

http://armstrongeconomics.com/library-research/encyclopedia-of-ethical-failure/


You see if you require the government always conduct on transparent block chain, it becomes an enslavement for everyone, otherwise you can't stop the leakage and ways of gaming the system.

The supply of Bitcoin will never be limited to 21 million coins unless you can find a way to outlaw finance and debt. But the people love debt and that is something that will never change. Usury was illegal and it coincided with a Dark Age. It was when the restriction of usury was removed that the Enlightenment and the economy began moving again. Because most people don't function on savings. Money is always power-law distributed, because most of humanity lives for today.

Statists always think they can create a nirvana. They are so delusional.

Edit: However I agree with you that there is one valid function of government. To resolve conflicts. If there is no authority with bigger guns, men fight to resolve who has the bigger gun. So here is where you vote with your feet. You withdraw your consent to that authority when it is being abused by employing your anonymity (withdraw funding by non-reporting of taxable activities), e.g. the USA military resource is being abused.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating any illegal activities. I am not a professor adviser. Please consult your own.

Also note that OpenBazaar is putting all their long-term persistent data on the Bitcoin blockchain. All these various block chain apps can't make their own block chain, because they wouldn't have sufficient hashrate to protect from 51% attacks. It is much more likely that only one or just a few block chains will win and all these apps win run on them.

http://www.wired.com/2014/04/darkmarket

OpenBazaar is a cool idea, but so far the design is such that your store only stays up if you computer is always online. I think they need to put all the store items on a block chain. But I don't think they can do that using the Bitcoin block chain.

Yet another reason Bitcoin's block chain is not sufficient to do everything we need to do.

I don't disagree, but it seems to me you missed at least one of my salient points. A paradigm is not open if it is the only way allowed. Such a goal is self-enslavement. Thus for sure there will exist anonymous block chains. So just forget being able to enforce that all corruption is 100% transparent always. There will never be a solution for that. And there shouldn't be because taking action against it, is centralizing. Politics is centralizing. Voting is centralizing. These all require a collective outcome.

Voting with our feet is decentralizing, because each person can act independently and gets his or her result instantly. As you vote by withholding your funding for the corruption (because you are anonymous you can), you contributed to minimizing it. Instantly. Decentrally.

When you agree with the efficiency of the government and see a necessary project, you agree to fund it. In order words, we privatize the government. They have to perform well. Similar to crowdfunding.

The solution to government corruption is eliminating (privatizing) government. Socialists hate this because they don't trust humanity. They think someone needs to force people to be caring and helpful. In reality, socialists create megadeath because they create the environment (government) for corruption and at the end game peak totalitarianism.

Socialism (and any other form of forced collectivism) is incongruent with openness and decentralization. I have no idea why a European or Obama socialist would support Bitcoin. They would need to be very confused (unless they are just fighting against anonymity improvements and thus want Bitcoin to be regulated).

Thank you for prompting me and giving me the insight of how to clarify my point. We learn from each other, by sharing.