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2301  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 07:43:13 PM
darn, for a minute there, i thought you were going to explain the hypocrisy:


then maybe you can explain why this troll take off thread on mine which has 0 posts on gold is allowed to continue?  it's filled with nothing more than anti XT troll posts:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1091654.0


If you keep bringing your attention deficit over here I'mma have to go ahead and troll your new thread
2302  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gyft Co-Founder: Credit Card Spending Now Outpacing Bitcoin on: August 30, 2015, 07:37:48 PM
He sees Bitcoin as a commodity (world's first digital commodity) rather than a currency, but his company was one of the first to integrate BTC as a payment method.  Huh

http://www.coindesk.com/gyft-co-founder-bitcoin-payments-have-decreased-by-80/

Yet Gavinistas will have you believe Bitcoin is the best thing around to buy their frappucino.
2303  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 07:23:47 PM
Quote
There is quite simply no other choice but for us to support a centralized (read unique) consensus code.

What is the basis for that assertion?

As mentioned long ago by Gavin, there can certainly be different implementations of the original reference code.  Even hard forks are possible without a centralized authority as we are witnessing now.

Seriously?

Go back to your homeworks. We can't have a proper discussion about Bitcoin development if you can't understand there should only be one consensus code

If you can't explain your reasoning, you fail.  Are you afraid I might see a flaw in your logic?

Yes, there must be the rule set which all participants must agree on (that's what consensus means).
It doesn't necessarily imply there must only be one centralized code repository.

Indeed, that's not what this means.

What I'm referring to here is what the core devs has been working on, the libconsensus. The consensus critical code: the "rule set which all participants must agree on". Historically this code has been maintained and updated by a sole consensus of developers for very obvious reasons.

Now this does not suggest others are not free to create their own implementation using this consensus code but the danger is that an irresponsible change to this code, which has to be unique and the same for ALL implementation, can cause very important damage to the network.

2304  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 07:17:45 PM
What makes it so special?

Let me see... you mean beside the fact it is the most rigorously tested implementation out there maintained by a majority of the most recognized, experienced experts in the field?


Maybe but I don't see why it couldn't change.

It could! And I'm not against it but this is an especially hard problem because the pool of people competent enough to handle these consensus critical code is very, very small. To quote:

Quote
The centralization issue you refer to is nothing more than a lack of man power. That is, only a scarce amount of people are reliable and technically able enough to handle the highly fragile development of Bitcoin. It is no wonder the guys currently leading core are some of the world's most advanced experts in their own field. This expertise cannot be easily replaced or dismissed "because decentralization". It is absolutely unproductive and irresponsible to try to advance decentralization of Bitcoin development by encouraging incapable people to start messing around with their own implementations and risk breaking consensus.
2305  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 07:13:20 PM
Quote
There is quite simply no other choice but for us to support a centralized (read unique) consensus code.

What is the basis for that assertion?

As mentioned long ago by Gavin, there can certainly be different implementations of the original reference code.  Even hard forks are possible without a centralized authority as we are witnessing now.

Seriously?

Go back to your homeworks. We can't have a proper discussion about Bitcoin development if you can't understand there should only be one consensus code
2306  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
What makes it so special?

Let me see... you mean beside the fact it is the most rigorously tested implementation out there maintained by a majority of the most recognized, experienced experts in the field?

2307  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 06:54:28 PM
It is the wrong thing to do even if you have the right to do it.
It might be wrong because you've been taught that it is wrong. Until someone gets punished here for mentioning XT, there is no problem. If someone doesn't like it, then they are free to leave.

Cypherdoc's thread was locked after the discussion turned heavily towards XT.  A Forum Administrator claimed the reason for locking the thread was that it was too broad in scope, so maybe you won't count this as "punished here for mentioning XT":

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157185.msg12199651#msg12199651

 -snip-

Definitely, not! The thread was about Gold vs Bitcoin and thread was filled with XT discussions. You do know that off-topic posts are against forum rules, right? You are acting like a stupid person to support XT and you don't strike me as a fool, Peter!


Let me make my position clear:

(1) I view the block size limit as an anti-spam measure and I support increasing it.

(2) I believe Bitcoin's greatest point of centralization is presently in development and I support measures to reduce this centralization.

By supporting XT, I help push for both larger block sizes and help move us away from our dependency on Bitcoin Core.  

If another credible team forks Bitcoin Core into a third implementation that also supports larger blocks, I will support that implementation too.  

Peter, the way you're biting every worm Hearn casts toward you is very disturbing.

This newly created issue of "developer centralization" is completely disingenuous and grounded in plain ignorance. Of course I am especially tired of seeing you rehashing the same tired concern (I imagine that's how GMax felt when you kept publicly supporting the false and misguiding conclusions of your paper) so allow me to quote myself again.

Quote
You absolutely don't understand or are being willingly misleading about this "centralization" issue. There is quite simply no other choice but for us to support a centralized (read unique) consensus code. That's pretty much the only way Bitcoin works. It happens that the core developers have historically been the one trusted with maintaining this code and updating it. Several implementations have been built around this consensus code. Most of them have little support for very valid reason: their implementation is generally considered less tested and therefore potentially less secure than core implementation. Now should we blame core for attracting the most competent developers in the space? Would it be rational to ask of them to each start dividing their work between different implementations just for the sake of "decentralization"?

The centralization issue you refer to is nothing more than a lack of man power. That is, only a scarce amount of people are reliable and technically able enough to handle the highly fragile development of Bitcoin. It is no wonder the guys currently leading core are some of the world's most advanced experts in their own field. This expertise cannot be easily replaced or dismissed "because decentralization". It is absolutely unproductive and irresponsible to try to advance decentralization of Bitcoin development by encouraging incapable people to start messing around with their own implementations and risk breaking consensus.
2308  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 30, 2015, 06:48:55 PM
It helps to think of it as a tragedy of the commons: absent of a blocksize it will eventually become in the miner's best interest to include as many transactions as possible in their blocks and consequently restricting access to governance of the network by way of bloating the blockchain.
Now, your objection (ToC) is valid in principle, that it is indeed in each of A, B, C's personal interest to include as much as possible contrary to the larger scarcity goal, but I point out that in this particular scenario, self governing is less likely to fail because (a) cooperation needs to be established only among a small group of actors (i.e. pool operators) that directly control the majority behavior, and are able to directly communicate with each other (as opposed to a large, amorphous population that usually underlies ToC type scenarios), and (b) because defection is publicly visible.

If, say, the two or three largest pools really want scarcity, they could try to cooperate, set a limit, and self-enforce it. (yes, free market lovers, that's a form of collusion). Blocksize is public, so cheating is possible but visible. If cooperation of the relevant majority fails (which I consider unlikely, as per the argument above), it makes sense to talk about voting processes and hard coded limits, but not before it has been established that this type of cooperation cannot be handled by individual actors.*

Ignoring the BIP100 voting scenario I really fail to understand your logic here.

In the outcome where the blocksize limit is lifted it doesn't matter who wants scarcity and whether or not they collaborate. As soon as the "artificial" scarcity cap is removed it enables the unlimited amount of resources competing for block creation to ignore the capacity of others and drive the creation of bigger and bigger blocks. No amount of pools or "majority" can discourage them from doing so. Their only deterrent is the orphan risk which becomes infinitely small as technology improves.

Smaller players who cannot process such large blocks will simply be driven out of the market by more resourceful actors.
2309  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 06:38:10 PM
The best guarantee we have is the ability to fork the code.

this really is the bottom line that is fundamental to open source coding and one which Bitcoin should not reject out of hand just b/c core dev spins a consensus mechanism as the ultimate goal to maintain control.

That's all well with us. Fork away and enjoy your authoritarian alt coin  Wink

Speaking about authoritarianism, you don't seem to give a bat about being under the authority of Core devs no matter what they could decide. Pardon me but I fail to see your logic.

I am not under the authority of any core dev but their historically reliable consensus development process. Its track record speaks for itself, having successfully ousted generally bad or harmful ideas out of contention for a push into the consensus code.

On the other hand you're trying to sell us into a top-down, outright authoritarian leadership of the development process  Undecided I know which one sits right with me and which one doesn't.
2310  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 06:09:58 PM
The best guarantee we have is the ability to fork the code.

this really is the bottom line that is fundamental to open source coding and one which Bitcoin should not reject out of hand just b/c core dev spins a consensus mechanism as the ultimate goal to maintain control.

That's all well with us. Fork away and enjoy your authoritarian alt coin  Wink
2311  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 30, 2015, 02:38:06 AM
Bitcoin's killer app is whenever bank lets you create a savings account in bitcoin and you don't have to worry about ever losing your keys.

Bitcoin's killer app is its deflationary nature and scarce supply in a world of inflationary money and quantitative easing.


they will make more when the "cripplecoin" miners vote to make more .. they have to because people lose bitcoins all the time by losing their private keys to their cold storage wallets and stuff.. precious metals is a much more true deflationary and scarce supply than cryptos...

Do you realise how retarded you sound?

Bitcoin could run fine under 10 bitcoins with some little magic.
2312  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP1xx DynamicMaxBlockSize on: August 30, 2015, 02:33:13 AM
I see your argument as being:  [snip]

No, my argument is: Let the market decide which transactions get in.  Don't have an artificial cap that prevents that transactional market from operating.  There will be other technological solutions that trim the fat, but let the benefits of those solutions be the reason that people move some transactions off the main chain. Don't force them out.

There is a reason why the artificial cap exists and that is because the "free market" as you so describes it does not account of the security of the system. To quote:

The reason this is important is some not all miners have an interest in creating artificial scarcity. In the case of a couple they simply couldn't operate above a certain limit. Others could not particularly care.

As technology improves, bigger actors get into the game and the inherent economies of scale take place, orphan risk from including too many transactions will necessarily diminish and large miners will necessarily have an advantage and an ability to drive smaller ones out of business in a precipitated way. This is concerning because while mining consolidating into enormous corporations is by all account an obvious outcome, we cannot afford for the same for nodes.

It helps to think of it as a tragedy of the commons: absent of a blocksize it will eventually become in the miner's best interest to include as many transactions as possible in their blocks and consequently restricting access to governance of the network by way of bloating the blockchain.
2313  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 02:24:44 AM
As long as there is fiat money, people will always first spend it since it is inflationary, so the scenario that bitcoin used for daily spending at large scale will never realize

Then the major usage left are long term saving and international remittance, both happens at very large size (over $100) and very low frequency (once a week/month)

In fact, majority of the transactions today in bitcoin network are pools paying miners and speculators deposit/withdraw from exchanges/gambling sites.

Gambling sites could occupy large amount of transaction capacity for blockchain, how to move their large amount of traffic offline is a challenge, maybe they should cooperate with bitcoin exchanges and do internal settlement without direct receiving coins from individual users



And what case do you make about decentralized app that will rely on the blockchain? i.e. OpenBazaar and Joystream?

Crippling the blockchain would just cripple what you can build on top of it.  

Sounds like the logic of a crippled brain  Roll Eyes How dare you reply to such a brilliant post with such a bland comment?

If OpenBazaar behave they can get a private, anonymity supported sidechain straight out of Blockstream Labs and run their own Lightning hub  Wink

 

That's really cool but the fact is OpenBazaar will deliver much faster than blockstream will.

I would imagine since they got a jump start from code they didn't write  Cheesy

I also imagine you are convince hordes of consumers will rush to use OpenBazaar as soon as they officially launch, right?

And you think people will rush into unproven concept / untested sidechains right from their launch?  Huh

I don't see where I said that? I'd be much more interested in an anonymous sidechain than crypto-ebay though to be honest...

The issue is the premise of your argument is that Open Bazaar hugely popular market place might get choked out of transaction room.

I advise your to get rid of these disease that is trying to satisfy inexisting demand because "I swear" mass adoption is coming. To quote:

But this mass thing is so not going to happen anyway, even if you "scale it" in advance. Sry but wake up, in its current form, bitcoin is out of the reach of regular sheeple.

People are too much anticipating, buying the fake dreams of them Antonopoulos, Gavin, Hearn et al., saving the planet with free insta-frappucinos.
2314  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 02:11:17 AM
As long as there is fiat money, people will always first spend it since it is inflationary, so the scenario that bitcoin used for daily spending at large scale will never realize

Then the major usage left are long term saving and international remittance, both happens at very large size (over $100) and very low frequency (once a week/month)

In fact, majority of the transactions today in bitcoin network are pools paying miners and speculators deposit/withdraw from exchanges/gambling sites.

Gambling sites could occupy large amount of transaction capacity for blockchain, how to move their large amount of traffic offline is a challenge, maybe they should cooperate with bitcoin exchanges and do internal settlement without direct receiving coins from individual users



And what case do you make about decentralized app that will rely on the blockchain? i.e. OpenBazaar and Joystream?

Crippling the blockchain would just cripple what you can build on top of it.  

Sounds like the logic of a crippled brain  Roll Eyes How dare you reply to such a brilliant post with such a bland comment?

If OpenBazaar behave they can get a private, anonymity supported sidechain straight out of Blockstream Labs and run their own Lightning hub  Wink

 

That's really cool but the fact is OpenBazaar will deliver much faster than blockstream will.

I would imagine since they got a jump start from code they didn't write  Cheesy

I also imagine you are convince hordes of consumers will rush to use OpenBazaar as soon as they officially launch, right?
2315  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 02:07:52 AM
As long as there is fiat money, people will always first spend it since it is inflationary, so the scenario that bitcoin used for daily spending at large scale will never realize

Then the major usage left are long term saving and international remittance, both happens at very large size (over $100) and very low frequency (once a week/month)

In fact, majority of the transactions today in bitcoin network are pools paying miners and speculators deposit/withdraw from exchanges/gambling sites.

Gambling sites could occupy large amount of transaction capacity for blockchain, how to move their large amount of traffic offline is a challenge, maybe they should cooperate with bitcoin exchanges and do internal settlement without direct receiving coins from individual users



And what case do you make about decentralized app that will rely on the blockchain? i.e. OpenBazaar and Joystream?

Crippling the blockchain would just cripple what you can build on top of it. 

Sounds like the logic of a crippled brain  Roll Eyes How dare you reply to such a brilliant post with such a bland comment?

If OpenBazaar behave they can get a private, anonymity supported sidechain straight out of Blockstream Labs and run their own Lightning hub  Wink

 
2316  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Evil Blockstream to rule the world? on: August 30, 2015, 02:02:13 AM
Blockstream's chocolate factory is already producing scrumptious crypto-candy.

Their tendency to induce hissy fits in disgruntled Gavinistas is just a nice side benefit.   Cheesy

xpost:


Blockstream is scaling Bitcoin in ways far more effective than XT's naive, ham-fisted, derpy 'duh just make the block moar big' approach.

Their Scaling Bitcoin workshops represent the proper way to gather information, share expertise, compare notes, find common ground, identify irreconcilable differences, and ultimately begin to move *with consensus* toward the goal of supporting more transactions, without sacrificing Bitcoin's unique distinguishing features.

Like it or not, at present Dr. Backamoto is effectively Bitcoin's CTO just as gmax is now Bitcoin's Chief Scientist.   Cool

While (former Chief Scientist) Gavin and Hearn are busy splitting the community into warring mutually-destructive factions, Blockstream is doing amazing things at the frontier of computer science and cryptography.

EG, https://blockstream.com/2015/08/24/treesignatures/

So much praise for vaperware  Roll Eyes

What a sad individual you are  Cry
2317  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 30, 2015, 01:57:54 AM
Bitcoin's killer app is whenever bank lets you create a savings account in bitcoin and you don't have to worry about ever losing your keys.

Bitcoin's killer app is its deflationary nature and scarce supply in a world of inflationary money and quantitative easing.
2318  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 30, 2015, 01:56:29 AM

Quote
[ mass adoption ] will NEVER happen if the network doesn't scale efficiently.

One must wonder whether mass adoption will ever happen.  The block size limit has not been an obstacle so far, yet adoption does not seem to be exactly exploding.  (The block size limit might be an obstacle within a year, if the traffic keeps growing at the recent rate.)


Internet adoption didn't dramatically accelerate until the World Wide Web. Bitcoin is still looking for that "killer app".  There are many potential candidates, but what will take off is probably something we haven't even thought of yet. 

Heh, so you're a "killer app" troll too   Roll Eyes

Consider that Bitcoin adoption is not merely about adding users but attracting capital. Bitcoin as it exists can accommodate an infinite amount of capital. There is no "scaling" problem in that regard.

Now what you are concerned with "transaction scaling" is a different set of problem. One that is often correlated to the growth of the network but any perspicacious onlooker will have noticed there is something missing from this theory.

You have misconception about Bitcoin's utility value and you need to address it before coming forward with more arguments!

I know what Bitcoin's utility value to me is, but nobody has the whole picture. What are you implying is the "real" utility value?  Yes, we absolutely need to attract new capital.  How do you think we're gonna do it?

By attracting capital looking for a safe, deflationary, impossible to censor or seize store of wealth.  

Stop the posturing about mainstream sheeple adoptions. The sheeps are generally poor and can only procure so much value to Bitcoin. We are still a couple years from crossing the technological chasm as Bitcoin as it stands is quite honestly not a competitive consumer product.

Fortunately there are trillions of capital who will soon be looking for that exit. Better strap your helmet and just be patient. Stop trying to "make Bitcoin better" Wink
2319  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts from Russia on the block size situation and Blockstream on: August 30, 2015, 01:49:02 AM
As long as there is fiat money, people will always first spend it since it is inflationary, so the scenario that bitcoin used for daily spending at large scale will never realize

Then the major usage left are long term saving and international remittance, both happens at very large size (over $100) and very low frequency (once a week/month)

In fact, majority of the transactions today in bitcoin network are pools paying miners and speculators deposit/withdraw from exchanges/gambling sites.

Gambling sites could occupy large amount of transaction capacity for blockchain, how to move their large amount of traffic offline is a challenge, maybe they should cooperate with bitcoin exchanges and do internal settlement without direct receiving coins from individual users



Fantastic post! Absolutely lucid and rational for once.
2320  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 30, 2015, 01:35:08 AM
who will bother to open an account with coinbase to buy bitcoins so they can buy stuff while paying a high fee ?? whats the point.. pay high fees.. instead use a debit card doesnt cost end user nothing to use a debit card and its easy.. no reason to use bitcoin that has multiples of issues that we all are aware of .. and if you are a gun owner and support the second amendment then you need to oppose the implementation of the "blockchain blacklists" code. i happen to be one of the "dwayne" brothers and i think your "blockchain blacklists" is a real cute trick. obviously there is only once choice.. cripple bitcoin with low bandwidth, slow payments with high fees ...... RIP XT or bitcoin make your choice.

about to get smacked down by the bear troll fud (i gotta get me one these cameras!) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIhCNbdIFT4

Indeed. What is the point of buying bitcoins to buy stuff? That is the question maybe you should ask yourself.

Did you consider maybe you did not have the right idea about what Bitcoin's real utility is?

it doesnt matter what i think or used to think about bitcoin utility..  problem is i think making a tool to intimidate gun owners with "blockchain blacklists" is unacceptable .. bitcoin not going to be reserve currency .

Uh. Ok.

Now I remember why I always skip over your posts.

 Cheesy
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