With regard to mining, you are better off buying two Antminer U3s for $40 instead a 21 device for $400.
 Good thing the point of these device is absolutely not to earn revenue through mining subsidy |
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There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain.
What is this reason? Did we already forget the blocksize debate?  The reasons are quite obvious... the Bitcoin protocol is not efficient enough to process these. Even if it was the average transaction fee is larger than what you'd consider microtransactions (you cannot send satoshi using the blockchain right now) |
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Ok, here's what they can do: they're running a proprietary micropayments server so mocrotransactions won't all be directly on the blockchain. That will limit blockchain bloat but centralize payments, defeating the purpose of crypto. The interesting possibility is that they will pay you in bitcoin for running a full node, even if you aren't mining much or at all. How the economics of this business model works out is still a mystery.
Basically this computer is a hardware interface to their microtransaction server. It's a debit card that you plug into the wall. It would be stupid but this is a debit card your toaster can use. hmm. I guess that would still make it stupid.
Yeah this is what it sounds like to me, but maybe there's something here I'm not getting. If 21 centralizes microtransactions doesn't that defeat the point of bitcoin in the first place? wouldn't they increase their exposure to legal/security issues as well? I'm probably not understanding their complete plan here. The transactions will still be settled on the blockchain ultimately. There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain. Some additional trust is required to make these use cases valid. 21inc sound like people I would trust with the small amounts concerned when we speak of microtransactions. Do you really need to leverage the full security and decentralization of the Bitcoin blockchain for fractions of dollars? |
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I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely: Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud. Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated. It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product. They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome. Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work. Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products. ya.ya.yo! Ever heard of "on-demand"? On-demand doesn't invalidate the argument, because the customer still needs to pay for it. If the CPU is so weak that the customer constantly needs external processing power for everyday activities, purchasing them through Bitcoin generated (minus fees) on another chip he has to pay for first is highly inefficient, so buying a more powerful CPU makes much more sense. If the bundled CPU is still so powerful that the customer rarely if ever needs external processing power - what is the point in paying for an additional mining chip? I see some potential for 21's products by providing a machine-to-machine payment infrastructure that facilitates for example purchasing digital content. However I fail to see demand for the scenario mentioned. ya.ya.yo! So you don't see the potential for a marketplace of idle computer resources (or bandwidth) pooled together and available on demand....? This is absolutely not about purchasing the resources using the bitcoins mined from the chip but enabling interoperability between all these devices so that they can communicate together using the Bitcoin protocol. |
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I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely: Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud. Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated. It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product. They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome. Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work. Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products. ya.ya.yo! Ever heard of "on-demand"? For on-demand to work efficiently from the cloud requires a good internet connection. People in remote areas still don't have that, and people on the move often have to rely on 3G/4G. 3G/4G connections depend on how close the nearest transmitter is, and are partially blocked by buildings, trees, and rain. That specific usage scenario of using mining chips and cloud computing services wouldn't work for anyone using 3G/4G with bad reception. People outside urban areas wouldn't buy into it because it would be unlikely to work for them. Did you just pull up some outlier scenarios to justify whatever point you're trying to make? |
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Obviously dude needs some ad revenue for his website  |
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The next product won't be one you purchase, it will be embedded chips right into your computer, your cellphone, your IoT devices.
Sounds cool, any ETA? This is obviously a long term project, think 5-10 years |
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$400 seems a little expensive for a modded RPi2?
also, can you buy this thing with bitcoin? no? well...
Wait, you can't buy it with bitcoin? For all they seem to be trying to promote bitcoin, that's pretty dumb... You can purchase it with Bitcoin through Purse.io if you really want to. https://twitter.com/PurseIO/status/646075586838814720That's not the point, they should be accepting bitcoin directly through their site, not relying on a third party. They address that here: Why can't I buy the 21 Bitcoin Computer with BTC?
Patience - we will be adding support for this! However, the deeper answer is that we think payment in BTC is not as big an improvement at the present time over standard ways to purchase macroscopic physical goods. Offline currencies are fairly well adapted for that use case. We believe that where Bitcoin really shines is for micropayments, as a medium of exchange for digital goods and services. https://21.co/faq/ |
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This is a pilot program, a devkit for developers, it is not aimed at mass production or consumers.
When will we get the next product and what will it be? The next product won't be one you purchase, it will be embedded chips right into your computer, your cellphone, your IoT devices. |
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I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely: Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud. Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated. It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product. They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome. Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work. Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products. ya.ya.yo! Ever heard of "on-demand"? |
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The price is way over the top to get an internet of things going.. But surely machines like this will boost the node count significantly.
How would updating this thing go?
This is a pilot program, a devkit for developers, it is not aimed at mass production or consumers. |
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Pretty exciting times. If this all plays out like 21 inc envisions it 11/16/2015 will go down in history as the start of the IoT. If you want a positive outlook on how these devices could be used check out the retweets of their CEO here: https://twitter.com/balajisIf you want the negative just think in pure fiat and commercialized mining terms: These will never ever ROI on their mining capabilities (not that they were meant to...see the big picture here guys). I'm glad that someone else gets it. The utter ignorance and narrow mindedness of people here is appalling. |
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BTW, the 21 inc computer is for pre-order at the moment...
Personally, I have a bit of strange feeling about the term "pre-order" in bitcoin mining world...
We're not talking about Butterfly labs here.... |
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It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model. Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining. https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821That's all fine and well... but you are discussing the future and we are discussing this product and whether people should buy it or not. There are better ways to be altruistic to support the bitcoin ecosystem if that is what you are implying. Yes, full nodes are good too, but I still think this is a good way to support the network, albeit an expensive one. That's not the point, if you have read the article and can't see how a whole range of engineers and developers would be interested in the capacities of such a setup then there's really not much I can do to help you figure it out. If your question is whether random joe and his buddies should be buying this device then obviously the answer is no. IT IS NOT A CONSUMER DEVICE |
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Exactly, and more importantly: you likely won't have to pay for transactions fees.
And wait several hours to get your transaction included into a rare 21inc block? They're currently mining 3-4 blocks a day. Enough to regularly settle millions of microtransactions on chain. Think of it like a payment channel maybe? Moreover, if they succeed in their plan to embed mining chips into every internet connected devices I can imagine that could eventually considerably increase their share of the mining market. |
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The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though  Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain? It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off... That's the point. The device as it stand is a pilot, eventually the mining chips will be embedded right into your computer's motherboard. it is ridiculous to spend 1.77 BTC for a device that will generate less than 0.03 BTC per month (less electricity cost). It is far more effective to buy the BTC directly. As for running a full node, there are much cheaper alternatives: http://raspnode.com/As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks. It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model. Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining. https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821 |
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It's quite simple: it enables true micropayments on the Bitcoin blockchain by making access to mining ubiquitous.
It's amazing how people with 1 year activity on this forum don't have a clue about bitcoin How the hell is that piece of garbage enabling micropayments? Why so butthurt? Tell me genius, how do you send a 2 satoshi transaction on chain right now? Tell me genius , how will you send a 2 satoshi transaction with that device? Is that device not following the bitcoin protocol rules? That device is a miner tied to a non negligible mining pool. Using some payment channel magic and their microtransactions server your 2 satoshi transaction will be aggregated with a bunch of others and settled into the blockchain as they mine blocks. |
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The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though ... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain? It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off... Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved. Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased. Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins. Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks. The project is based around microtransactions. There's no reason you need full Bitcoin decentralization for these. |
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Nah, the raspberry pi type hardware makes a lot of sense. The people they're targeting are likely already familiar with that sort of device (if not an rpi then a beaglebone black or a pcduino or etc.) and these devices make it pretty easy to just slap some other arbitrary hardware on there and have the device communicating with that hardware with very little effort. At this point it isn't even clear if people are 'getting' bitcoin, or (as per my post) tokens-equivalent-to. If they're not getting bitcoin then a payment portal to buy the tokens direct would be a lot simpler, cost effective for the end-user, etc. If they are getting bitcoin indirectly (i.e. payout is to 21's pool) then that doesn't do much against mining centralization other than growing one of the existing players. If they *are* getting bitcoin directly, then it's back to a whole bunch of microtransactions in blocks (as payout to the device owners) and a whole bunch of other mess. Agreed on the node part, though. As it is, I wish the hardware nodes available for commercial sale were more affordable. And yes, this is commentary on this specific product The payout is made to 21inc mining pool. The users are getting bitcoins, not tokens... |
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It's quite simple: it enables true micropayments on the Bitcoin blockchain by making access to mining ubiquitous.
It's amazing how people with 1 year activity on this forum don't have a clue about bitcoin How the hell is that piece of garbage enabling micropayments? Why so butthurt? Tell me genius, how do you send a 2 satoshi transaction on chain right now? |
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