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2381  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Yet another solution for instant payments (Constructive centralization) on: October 24, 2011, 07:05:10 PM
@zhoutong: How can the keys expire? That makes no sense to me. If the consumers don't have the private keys then they can't do the transaction as it will not be approved into the block chain unless it is signed by both parties, no?
...
Consumers do have to trust it if they need to rely upon a server to complete their transactions. If the server is unreliable they will take their coins out, if the server dies and the business goes into the dark and never releases the private keys, then the bitcoins are lost along with the private keys.
I addressed this in my comment.
Coins will be spendable if ( (server sig and client sig) or (client sig and time > October 2012) ). If the server vanishes, clients will wait a year and then be able to reclaim their coins. Server unreliability can still be a nuisance though.
2382  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Yet another solution for instant payments (Constructive centralization) on: October 24, 2011, 04:05:01 PM
Great idea. A few improvements though:

There's no reason the client should send the private key to the server. You can make bitcoins that are spendable only with digital signatures from two private keys (and with OP_EVAL, you can do it transparently as a normal Bitcoin address). So the client only needs to send a digital signature for the requested transactions. This eliminates any risk of the server stealing coins.

I think you can also make it so that the coins are spendable with just the client's key after a specified time. So even if the server loses his key, the clients can reclaim the coins after this time. If everything is fine, the time arrives and the clients wish to continue using the service, they move the coins to a new address with an updated time.

Yet more proof that all the supposed "problems" with Bitcoin are solvable with its incredibly powerful and flexible architecture.
2383  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [121 GH/s] EMC: 0 Fee/Merged Mining/PayPal Payout/SMS/US/EU/AU//More on: October 24, 2011, 05:55:04 AM
Will you add a feature to automatically convert the NMC balance to BTC?

You could make a daily job that sends the NMC of everyone with the option selected to an exchange, withdraws, and distribute the earned BTC in proportion to the namecoins taken.

Is there an exchange that has a permanent API that will allow me to deposit money and initiate sales?  Bitparking doesn't seem to have an API at all.
It looks like https://btcex.com/ has an API.
2384  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [121 GH/s] EMC: 0 Fee/Merged Mining/PayPal Payout/SMS/US/EU/AU//More on: October 23, 2011, 01:35:46 PM
Will you add a feature to automatically convert the NMC balance to BTC?

You could make a daily job that sends the NMC of everyone with the option selected to an exchange, withdraws, and distribute the earned BTC in proportion to the namecoins taken.
2385  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Flyers! on: October 20, 2011, 08:40:46 PM
The "privacy from governments & banks" bit will probably alienate a hundred times as many people as it would attract.
2386  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Animation: Bitcoins moving over the blockchain on: October 18, 2011, 02:30:56 PM
Having trouble following this.  Could you explain exactly what the blue and green lines represent, please?

A legend on the animation page itself might go a long way towards clarifying this.
The green line is how many coins were generated every day.

The blue line is how many coins were sent to some address in a given day and hasn't moved up to the time your cursor is over.

Both quantities are divided by 144, the average number of blocks per day.

For example, if your cursor is over July 15, 2011 and the blue line over March 15, 2011 is 100, it means there are 14400 bitcoins that were transferred on March 15, 2011 and either did not move since or moved only after July 15, 2011.
2387  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Animation: Bitcoins moving over the blockchain on: October 18, 2011, 10:16:30 AM
Nice graphs. Some smoothing will make them more informative. A Gaussian kernel would be best, or you could just change the bin size to 60 minutes 3 days or something (I assume it's now 1 day?).
2388  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Analysis of Bitcoin pooled mining reward systems (work in progress) on: October 17, 2011, 03:30:55 PM
For example, over a period of n rounds the buffer will change in an amount on the order of sqrt(n) times the block reward. The probability that it will take at least n rounds to recover from a negative buffer of m times the block reward is roughly (m/sqrt(n))*sqrt(2/Pi). (From which it follows that the expected time to recovery is infinite.)
I'm not sure I follow this - if m is large and n is small, you get a large probability of the negative buffer recovering quickly. Can you provide an example for me?
The approximation only holds for sufficiently large n and m. So you can't use it directly to find the probability of quick recovery. But you can do it in reverse. For example, m=10, n=1000 gives a probability of 25.2% that it will take at least 1000 rounds to recover from -500 BTC, which means probability of 74.8% to recover within 1000 rounds. While m=20, n=1000 gives a probability of 50.4% for at least 1000 rounds, meaning only 49.6% probability of less than 1000 rounds.
2389  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Analysis of Bitcoin pooled mining reward systems (work in progress) on: October 17, 2011, 01:05:54 PM
Great work Meni. As readable and informative as ever. And also nice to know that the crazy huge negative buffers I seemed to get in simulation aren't a bug but a feature. Over hundreds of thousands of simulated rounds the buffers go up and down like a bride's nightie, but the time taken to get out of a negative buffer hole can be hundreds of rounds.
Yes, Brownian motion is pretty crazy but quite a lot can be said about its dynamics. For example, over a period of n rounds the buffer will change in an amount on the order of sqrt(n) times the block reward. The probability that it will take at least n rounds to recover from a negative buffer of m times the block reward is roughly (m/sqrt(n))*sqrt(2/Pi). (From which it follows that the expected time to recovery is infinite.)

Starting with a very large positive buffer (say 1000 time the bitcoin reward for a block) can make it much less likely that an SMPPS pool will go in to negative buffer in the short to medium term, but the more rounds I simulate the greater the changes in buffer can be. Even if the pool knows it might go into positive at soe later point, can it survive until then?
The pool has no problem surviving as long as its buffer is high - in this case the distinction between it and PPS are blurred. If the buffer is currently positive but on a more earthly level, people are signing up for a pool which is by design doomed to failure (even if it will take a while for the failure to actually take place).
2390  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Analysis of Bitcoin pooled mining reward systems (work in progress) on: October 16, 2011, 06:26:45 PM
Chapter 4 (*MPPS) is done.
2391  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What does the Bitcoin need the most now? on: October 15, 2011, 07:40:56 PM
Education / information resources. Currently someone who learns about Bitcoin can't get clean, concise, accurate information. The wiki might be the proper venue for this but currently leaves a lot to be desired.
2392  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [IDEA] CaptchaCoin on: October 14, 2011, 10:25:19 AM
Blockchain proof of work needs to be hard to come up with but easy to verify. Captcha solutions are as hard to verify as to find, and a captcha problem can't be generated without the generator already knowing the solution.

RandomCoin - to earn RandomCoin you have to provide "true" randomness to the sysetm (I'm not sure "true" randomness e.g. quantum can be distinguished from simulated randomness). Would be a neat distributed replacement for random.org.
In theory it's possible to distinguish. In practice a good PRNG with a not-too-long truly random seed can fool pretty much anything you throw at it. In other words, much harder to verify randomness than to generate it.

Also, Intel IVB will have integrated "digital" true RNG making randomness generation easy.
2393  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Pool hopping... ethical or not? on: October 14, 2011, 09:34:44 AM
and who was I to tell people that there might be a hopping problem with a reward system designed to be hop-proof!
SMPPS was "designed to be hop-proof" by someone who hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. I've explained why it's broken until I went blue in the face ever since it was spawned.
Such a shame.  I wonder how they managed to convince themselves that their reward system was good.  I must admit that when I first read this reward system it seemed bad
I think it has something to do with falling for the myth that score-based methods penalize intermittent miners, then starting a holy crusade stating that any method is good as long as it's not score-based. And, the vulnerabilities of SMPPS are different and subtler than of proportional.

(just as with BitMinter and it's shift system).
Actually a shift system can work. I've discussed here how to do it correctly.

Honestly though, my instincts tell me that most of the reward systems out there, even though hoppable, are perfectly fine to use (very few hop them correctly and make very little for their efforts anyway).
I don't think that's true. slush and SMPPS should be avoided. ESMPPS might sort of work out ok. There are very good hopping-proof methods so there's no justification to settle for anything less.

Hmm...  Again I'm operating on instinct so I'm happy to stand corrected by someone who's done the work.  When I read SMPPS it felt as though the severity of pool hopping would be significantly reduced (compared to proportional) but I could easily be wrong here. 
Oh, it's reduced all right, in a sense. The hopper can't get more than 0-fee PPS out of it, and the honest miners' losses depend on the long-term dynamics and usually come in the form of increased maturity time rather than reduced expectation.

"perfectly fine to use" is perhaps a little strong but I only mean to suggest that if you restrict yourself to only "correct" reward systems then you must reject almost every pool in existence.  When selecting a pool with low variance it is more helpful to know which of the pools have less of a hopping problem (factoring in: the percentage hoppers can ideally expect; preventative measures bought in by the pool such as hiding information and banning hoppers; and the difficulty in hopping it).  Personally I'm interested in using correct reward systems and don't mind high variance.
I'd say fixed-N PPLNS is good enough in practice. That opens up quite a few options, such as MMC. And you have some great, even if small, double-geom pools such as EclipseMC and yourbtc.

I'm disappointed that the difficulty changes are exactly the problem with PPLNS for fixed N as I was hoping for some cool new probability fact.
Sorry, making up new probability laws is beyond my powers. Smiley
2394  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Double geometric method: Hopping-proof, low-variance reward system on: October 13, 2011, 08:47:32 PM
Perhaps you can just take the payout from the formula today, divide it by 50 and multiple with the actual income.
It needs to be the potential income when the share was submitted, not the received income when a block is found.
I'am looking for a way to determine the estimated block reward B when a share (which is not solving the block) was submitted. Is that even possible?

A possible solution i have in mind: we increase the user score for every submitted share on block x as soon as block x was solved and we know exactly how much B was.

Is that's the way it should be done?
That's exactly the thing I said shouldn't be done. The correct way is much simpler, it's to use the block reward of the share itself. That is, the share is a hash of a block header you hand out for the getwork, which has a merkle root of a transaction list with a given total transaction fee, which together with generation is the total block reward. That's the value of B which should be used for this share.
2395  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [15 GH/s] yourbtc.net - DGM - Loyality Bonus - 0% Fee - API - Full Decimal on: October 13, 2011, 07:46:59 PM
In order to gain full advantage of merged mining we will gather all nmc and trade them for you into btc as a service.
This part I like...

[your payout] = [Loyality Bonus pool balance] / [all monthly valid shares] * [your monthly valid shares][/li][/list]
This part I don't like. What's the point using a hopping-proof method and then adding a hoppable feature?

The method handles transaction fees as is as long as you determine B correctly. It needs to be the total block reward corresponding to a share's getwork.

You can add namecoins by having separate Bitcoin Score and Namecoin Score, where the namecoin reward according to the method is converted to bitcoins before entering the confirmed balance.
2396  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: The power of the pool. on: October 13, 2011, 06:31:08 PM
The recent DDOS attacks on deepbit, slush, and btcguild should reinforce the ideas in this thread.
It's a shame people don't realize this more.
And, the solutions to the problem are much better understood now. You have p2pool (which can be used as a variance-reduction substrate for small pools), and there's been discussions of pools accepting shares constructed by the miner as long as the generation transaction credits the pool.

The network is probably safer with Deepbit and Slush's down than otherwise. Much ado about nothing.
To the extent that this is true, that's exactly what the ado is about - that there's a large bulk of miners who harm network security instead of improving it.
2397  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Pool hopping... ethical or not? on: October 13, 2011, 06:03:34 PM
Summary of mining pool reward systems
Analysis of Bitcoin pooled mining reward systems (work in progress)

eligius.st - merged mining with SMPPS.  hop-proof and with fairly low variance.
teukon - just thought I'd mention that SMPPS pools can be hopped to reduce payback time, at least in simulation anyway. It won't increase your total payout, but will reduce the amount you are owed at any point in time.
You yourself made the error of including SMPPS in a list of "hopper proof" methods.

As far as I can tell there are no strategies to optimise payments for double-geo and PPLNS.
Lie-in-wait. But no, assuming the attacker has no posterior knowledge of future blocks and that the atomic action is finding a share and submitting it to a pool of choice, double-geom and unit-PPLNS provably cannot be optimized.


and who was I to tell people that there might be a hopping problem with a reward system designed to be hop-proof!
SMPPS was "designed to be hop-proof" by someone who hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. I've explained why it's broken until I went blue in the face ever since it was spawned.

I'm simply too busy to look at all the reward systems carefully and evaluate them mathematically (I reject unnecessarily complicated and inelegant systems out of hand).
Way ahead of you, see links above.

at least with certain parameters fixed.
You can change the parameters, but you'll need to either modify the scores or using an invariant scoring in the first place.

PPLNS is absolutely solid for a fixed N.
No it's not. To be absolutely solid you need to use the "unit-PPLNS" variant (to which I refer in my PPLNS post simply as "the correct method").

The same problems could be faced by starting and ending a PPLNS pool (a naive implementation will be a trapezoid scheme but a graceful one will avoid this).
The correct way to end a PPLNS pool is to immediately pay out the expected values of outstanding scores.

Honestly though, my instincts tell me that most of the reward systems out there, even though hoppable, are perfectly fine to use (very few hop them correctly and make very little for their efforts anyway).
I don't think that's true. slush and SMPPS should be avoided. ESMPPS might sort of work out ok. There are very good hopping-proof methods so there's no justification to settle for anything less.


SMPSS - Simple Maximum PPS.
Shared Maximum PPS.
2398  Other / Meta / More complaints about forum advertising on: October 11, 2011, 11:16:10 AM
In order to collect more money for the creation of good forum software, the forum is selling ad space in the area beneath the first post in every topic.
Please don't.

Or at least make it as described - beneath the first post in every topic - rather than the first post in every page as it is now. That way it will kind of make sense separating the OP from the discussion.
2399  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [IDEA] Multi-level wallet encryption on: October 10, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
Ho Many, I never saw you around here, even though we met in person and you seem to be quite active.
I am, you're probably not looking hard enough. And not interested enough in mining pool reward systems, which is generally my primary area of contribution.

To sidetrack for a second, what's your opinion on this thread (totally unrelated, if you respond please post there)?
Which thread? Is a link missing?
2400  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [IDEA] Multi-level wallet encryption on: October 10, 2011, 08:22:07 PM
In case you're not already in the loop, there's been some discussions about extending the scripting language used for transaction verification and modify it to allow scripts to be transparent to senders (example). I'm not at all in the know what's going on but it's possible this can be accomplished with the right script.

PS I've been thinking about the same thing for a long while.
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