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241  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: February 01, 2018, 08:31:17 AM
Well, it fails on decentralization already, and "asymptotically" means wasting more than half of human's resources.

The power law of economics says that anything which has a profit motive will centralise. But, there is no other way (yet discovered) to achieve a nash equilibrium than establishing a profit motive, so we're stuck with it.

I believe there is a way to achieve more decentralisation than we have in blockchains currently, still using PoW, but that's another post.

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Because if you are presented with different block chains, and the ethereum block chain contains more proof of economic waste than what people used to call the bitcoin block chain, according to your rule, you have to accept the ethereum block chain as the sole true consensus document

Are you honestly saying that the LCR rule doesn't distinguish between blockchains? Obviously it only functions within a single blockchain and yes, clients can tell the difference between an ethereum chain and a bitcoin one.
242  Economy / Economics / Re: Pricing and arbitrage: what are the requirements? on: February 01, 2018, 08:24:52 AM
The example detail is a bit confusing. If I understand correctly, you want to buy at an exchange with low rate, and sell at another exchange for a higher rate but the trade closes at a later date. That doesn't seem like a reasonable way to do arbitrage. The waiting part of your trade kills the idea of an arbitrage.

This is what I was thinking.

Note to other readers: I wasn't asking for conditions when arbitrage is profitable, only when its physically possible.
243  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 31, 2018, 07:42:02 PM
If it is necessary for a system to waste GW of electricity as its fundamental "security" principle, as compared to systems that can be made as economical as technologically possible, there's no justification for that huge waste, which engenders a lot of OTHER problems, like the power concentration (the centralization of decision).

The justification is asymptoticly secure, trustless, decentralisation. Take it or leave it.

PoS gives you none of that security model, and is slower than visa, making it an exercise in utter futility.
244  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 31, 2018, 04:38:57 PM
If you're talking about trustlessness, you cannot include hypotheses like this.   After all, this is very well not true, especially when there are possibilities to short bitcoin outside of the system.  It may very well be profitable to kill bitcoin, because, as you say, there's competition in the larger market too.

To use PoS proponents mostly commonly used counter argument to this claim - why would anyone with huge stocks of highly expensive mining hardware risk making all their inventory worthless by carrying out this attack?

Even if they somehow make this a profitable attack, their chances of pulling it off are minimal because they still need to outpace the rest of the world in producing the longest chain.
245  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 31, 2018, 03:54:50 PM
Because if not, the other half may be used to produce that famous B.   How do you know that in fact, bitmain doesn't have 8 times the amount of mining hardware they have sold on the market, in a secret place somewhere, ready to be switched on to produce a "false" block chain ?  Maybe they get subventions from the Chinese government to screw bitcoin, who knows ? 

We've discussed this before. There is a competition to mine; it is more profitable to mine than it is to sit on mining hardware, therefore you can be pretty sure this isn't the case.

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Hey, how come that you trust the genesis block ?  Because it is written in software that some dudes signed with their signatures on centralized Github ?  Maybe it is not the right one !  Maybe what that piece of software tells you, is actually not the "true" bitcoin block chain !  Who knows !  You trusted Core's signatures ?

You don't have to. If you're presented with two candidate blockchains with different genesis blocks, the one you accept is the longer chain of PoW. PoS cannot use this feature because block production is costless, therefore its trivial to produce myriad candidate blockchains which only online nodes can distinguish from the true blockchain.
246  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 31, 2018, 02:57:10 PM
Here's the problem bitcoin's proof of waste tries to solve:

"show me that, amongst X different possible states of consensus, consensus proposal "A" is the unique right one, even if I wasn't there, and even if I don't trust ANYBODY".  Moreover, "show me that just any other entity like me, not trusting anyone, and not having been online when these decisions were made either, will come to the same conclusion that it was A, and not B, even if that other person is presented another collection Y of possible states of consensus.".

That is indeed correct. And, in fact, any consensus design which doesn't have this condition at it's core is utterly pointless, because once you remove any of these conditions, you might as well just use Visa, which is much faster and more widely accepted than any cryptocurrency.
247  Other / Archival / Re: New Framework : Per Person Blockchain Looking for Coders on: January 31, 2018, 10:47:36 AM
Look at Raiblocks
248  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 31, 2018, 10:44:07 AM
Largely a very long rant about money being the root of all evil, isn't it?

Not at all.  Read it.  It is about the amount of waste produced by a successful PoW asset, eating up a significant part of earth's economy in electricity and hardware to produce waste and nothing else.  It has nothing to do with money, but all with Proof of Waste.

BTW, couldn't resist: https://ideas.repec.org/p/edn/esedps/110.html


Truely trustless, decentralised technologies will always be slower and more wasteful than centralised alternatives, that's a fact I don't dispute.
249  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 31, 2018, 10:33:54 AM
I would like to draw one's attention to the thread I have elsewhere, which points to a fundamental problem with PoW.  

That is, for the proponents of PoW, what's the vision on that ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2847680

Largely a very long rant about money being the root of all evil, isn't it?
250  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Goodbye Blockchain. Hello Hashgraph. on: January 31, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
I wrote a short analysis on hashgraph here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2029044.0

Highlights:

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...However, as the author notes in that second paper above, in it's pure form it offers no protection from sybil attack. The author suggests using stake from another blockchain in order to weight votes to provide some protection again sybil attack, but does not talk about the inherent problems in doing so, such as the transient nature of the balance of any particular staking address in another blockchain.

In addition the author talks about using PoW to acquire voting weight, which does not suffer from the same transient problems associated with stake, but it is still largely PoS in nature since voting weight persists or decays at a finite speed, unlike the way PoW functions in bitcoin, for example.

All in all, I think it has applications outside of cryptocurrency, but IMO is poorly suited to the requirements of the consensus mechanism within one.

Cheers, Paul.
251  Economy / Economics / Re: Pricing and arbitrage: what are the requirements? on: January 28, 2018, 10:12:47 AM
For example, you are assuming that in order to arbitrage you must move your coin from one exchange to another - you would be better served to simply worry about the outcome. If you buy low and sell high, why does it matter if you combine the coin?

Indeed. But you must, at some point, withdraw both currencies from an exchange in order to balance your overall inventories... So if you can never withdraw one side, I fail to see how you can arbitrage?
252  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Scaling bitcoin: the elephant in the room on: January 28, 2018, 10:05:57 AM
For anyone interested, I've attached a draft whitepaper explaining all the details of the proposal to the first post in this topic.
253  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Scaling bitcoin: the elephant in the room on: January 27, 2018, 11:44:01 AM
The difficulty was brought in to prevent one "bad" actor with massive amounts of hashing power to mine all the blocks for himself and also to adapt to the technological improvement of processing power. So as soon as there are a massive spike in the total hashing power, then the difficulty will adjust to balance things out.

The difficulty is one of the core principles of the protocol. ^smile^

It is indeed. This proposal is radical, however it maintains the core principles of bitcoin, including the reason you state.
254  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Scaling bitcoin: the elephant in the room on: January 27, 2018, 07:15:51 AM
*) Block reward is proportional to chosen difficulty (up to a an moore's law based maximum and with a spam preventing minimum)

This is a very good idea, but it shouldn't be used as a reward to consensus.  I think consensus should be done freely and then PoS is a good method (see other thread).  However, I think PoW is a good technique for coin creation (independent of consensus decision).  If coin creation is proportional to a weighted form of proof of work, where the weight is the economic cost of proof of work (technology dependent), then we have an automatic value control mechanism, and we are finally making a CURRENCY, not a speculative get-rich-by-hodling asset.  That currency would be created more if its market price rose (it is then more interesting to spend PoW to make it, than to buy it in the market).   Coin issuance would stop if the price goes below the cost of PoW.  In other words, PoW would work as the central bank regulating supply, and there's no problem of seigniorage, because it is wasted on PoW.

If a coin is set to cost about, say, $10 in PoW, then that coin will hover steadily around $10.  If it rises, more coins are created and this extra offer plummets the price.  If it drops, no more coins are created and its scarcity can make the price rise again.  Moreover, the expectation of constant price will avoid speculation, and promote currency usage.

But again, one should not reward consensus. 

Rewarding consensus is completely and utterly key to the security and usability of a PoW cryptocurrency - without it, there is no way to bound transaction acceptability.

In addition to that, you cannot control the value of a currency by changing the PoW difficulty. Value is derived from supply and demand, changing the difficulty only affects the supply side.
255  Economy / Economics / Re: Pricing and arbitrage: what are the requirements? on: January 27, 2018, 07:11:51 AM
The market structure does not matter; the strike/price/numbers that you input and output are going to be what matters. Write out everything you plan to do, the prices, the fees, etc. and see if you come out positive, or if you're daring and confident you can just go for it and make the trades/purchases and see if you end up with more money. Either way, you will have your answer, but without more information, criteria and parameters there is no way to respond to your question, except with more questions.

For example, though - if you took BTC/USD on bitmex (which doesn't support USD deposits/withdrawals, instead uses a price pegging system), and BTC/USD on bitfinex, which uses USDT, arbitrage is not possible, because there's no way to exchange USD between exchanges, so market structure does matter in this case.

I'm just wondering what the constraints are? Is it simply the ability to deposit/withdraw the base/quote currencies on both exchanges?
256  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 26, 2018, 01:35:35 PM
It is a silly idea to want to be able to prove to you that during your absence, everything happened according to the rules.

I can't continue having this discussion if you truly believe that statement to be true.
257  Economy / Economics / Pricing and arbitrage: what are the requirements? on: January 26, 2018, 01:28:36 PM
Hello all,

I've been mulling over in my head what the requirements are for inter-exchange arbitrage to affect the price of a particular market.

For example, if you have two exchanges, with the same market structure, both accepting deposits and withdrawals in base and quote currencies, it seems arbitrage is clearly possible, should a pricing discrepancy present itself.

But what happens if the market structure is different between exchanges?

Say, exchange A has a 'standard' LTC/BTC market where you sell 1 BTC and get 0.1 LTC instantly, but exchange B, is a CFD exchange trading LTC/BTC where you go short 1 BTC and then have to close the trade at a later point?

Is arbitrage still possible?

Cheers, Paul.
258  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 26, 2018, 11:34:22 AM
Order is simply a consensus.  It has not much to do with time.  In fact, transactions don't even need to be time-ordered.  If there are no double-spends, their order is automatic.

If there were no double spends, we don't need a blockchain, or bitcoin or anything fancy. But guess what?

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But that's all that is needed; order.  Not "real world time".  Of course, IF you tag real world time to transactions, you automatically get an ordering.  And IF you tag real world time to consensus pictures, they are of course also automatically ordered.  But it is not a necessary condition.

Trustless ordering cannot occur without a unforgeable proxy for elapsed time.

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In order to avoid this, one needs to make sure that nobody is accumulating hardware capacity without using it.  Bitcoin is only protected if one can make sure nobody has a significant amount of unused hardware.  If one has a huge pile of unused hardware, one can switch it on and outperform the existing system with not much more proof of work than was put into it.

So bitcoin's ultimate protection is not by proof of work, but by proof-of-non-existence-of-unused-hardware.  See, the attack of piling up unused hardware is obvious in PoW.

No one piles up unused hardware because there exists a competition to mine; mining is, on average, more profitable than attacking the network, that is the key of why PoW is superior to PoS.

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That really depends on the PoS algorithm.  It would be a stupid algorithm that doesn't allow staking.

No it doesn't depend on the PoS algorithm; block producers are elected by stake, and to prevent that election happening repeatedly as stake moves around (creating attack vectors), stake must be bonded in some way by preventing new blocks from being produced right away. So if you send your stake to yourself, you're subject to that bonding period. If everyone does that, no one can produce a block and the network stalls, forever.
259  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Scaling bitcoin: the elephant in the room on: January 26, 2018, 09:37:44 AM
You basically mentioned uncle blocks which is used by Ethereum.

While it could reward miners and not wasting resources used to mine blocks, there are some flaws such as :
1. Increasing bitcoin production which could rise maximum bitcoin supply and could cause inflation.
2. It could be abused by miners to earn more coins and my 1st point would happen even worse.
3. While i don't have much info, i'm sure adding uncle blocks will require more computing power to run full nodes which could risk decentralization.

Source :
https://bitslog.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/uncle-mining-an-ethereum-consensus-protocol-flaw/

In ethereum, uncle blocks contain redundant data. In my proposal, there is never any redundant data, because every transaction sent mines itself, so the analysis in that link doesn't apply.
260  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? on: January 26, 2018, 09:35:13 AM
Yes, and nobody needs that.  One only needs ORDER, not "real world time proxies".  

And how do you think you arrive at the order? Without reliable time-stamping, you don't and cant. It is the building block upon which all this is based.


In proof of work, if you do slightly more work than the "good guys" (that is, the ensemble of miners that were working "honestly"), you won.  It is sufficient that you have proven, say, 50% more hashes than the "good guys" your chain will take over.  With a digital signature, that is not "50% more", but 2^128 times more or so.

'Slightly more' work than the rest of the network is vastly more work than solving a single block.

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They are only vulnerable to attacks from the inside, that is, from their owners, and then it depends exactly on the PoS scheme used.  They cannot be attacked from the outside, from someone who doesn't have any stake in the system and never owned some stash.  As to the exact attacks that are possible, that depends on the precise implementation of the PoS scheme.

If I pay 100% of staking, stake-owners to send a transaction to themselves at at precisely 12:00pm next monday, whichever chain I choose would be stalled forever. That's a fairly obvious external 'attack'.

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PoW can even be attacked with all users offline, because the PoW stake holders have nothing to do with the coin.  If tomorrow, the Chinese government confiscates most of the mining equipment, bitcoin is in the hands of the Chinese government.  With a PoS coin, that's simply impossible.

Sorry, that's just plainly incorrect. If the chinese government confiscates all mining equipment in china, bitcoin blocks will slow down as the rest of the world gradually takes up the slack. On the other hand, if some force confiscates all the staking stake from a PoS chain, the chain is dead forever barring a hard fork.
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