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2721  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Finally, a correct (endgame) difficulty calculator on: October 13, 2013, 06:41:19 AM
Have you tried using your spreadsheet on historical data to see how it performed? This would give you the ability to include confidence intervals (-ish).

How do you figure this could be applied retroactively? This doesnt give you a timeline.
2722  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Finally, a correct (endgame) difficulty calculator on: October 13, 2013, 06:39:39 AM
Where did you get your numbers for 36$ per 28nm ASIC Manufacturing Costs?

I'd expect that to be behind several NDAs..

The silicon cost is calculated based on the price per wafer and number of candidates per wafer.  Its not like TSMC or GF have pricelists on their website, but there is plenty of industry analysis literature out there that gives an idea. Im using $4000 per processed 300mm 28nm wafer, which is last years average price. I dont have a public source for you for that, but this may show the ballpark is at least correct:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20110912192619_TSMC_Reportedly_Hikes_Pricing_on_28nm_Wafers_Due_to_Increased_Demand.html
Note the articel is from 2011.

Prices may have come down further since 2012, and I strongly suspect bitcon asics use less layers than the average (making them cheaper), but otoh $4000 is a volume price that may be out of reach of bitcoin asic vendors today. Since this is an endgame calculator, that doesnt matter much. To get to the above numbers, bitcoin asics would have to become fairly big volume anyway.

As for the other costs, chip packaging is typically calculated per ball, with $0.003 per ball being a good rule of thumb. That works out to ~$3 per chip. The additional $4 per chip I used for testing and handling is probably way too much.
2723  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] Asset Exchange Marketplace + Rewritable Options Trading on: October 12, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I mean seriously you guys need to get a grip, send in copies of my passport, drivers licence, and a credit card ... NO THANKS 


But you have no problem sending your bitcoins there? Think about it...
2724  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: October 12, 2013, 10:43:51 PM
I see theseven sees the light.
2725  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Next difficulty ~215,000,000 ? on: October 12, 2013, 10:41:17 PM
Heating up quite a bit now.

Last 120   12/10/2013 10:45   263112-263232   300 944 020   x1.59
Last 10   12/10/2013 22:44   263222-263232   519 052 786   x2.74
Next   16/10/2013 17:54   264096   261 500 120   x1.38

Blockchain shows hashrate just a hair under 2PH
2726  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 06:22:01 PM
1,2M was before the update, that update was 22 April, since then with his calcutlations and added +2M Gigahash it's at more than 2M. Read the sources you quote right.
Recently said? They have those orders standing since about half a year according to your source!
Stating anything that BFL says as believable puts you in a new level of troll.
Also, I did NOT state that my previous comment is valid for KNC Orders. They had not more than a year in wait time and therefore not all orders can be accounted for. Also, they do not have that many orders stated on their own forum AND they are way more public with the upcoming independent movie and their general publicity is way better. Don't compare stuff that can't be compared.

Whatever. You try ordering 500 wafers directly at GF, let me know how it works out. FYI  GF has 3-400,000 wafer per month capacity, for less than 100 wafers per month they dont even pick up the phone and you need to go through intermediaries.
2727  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 06:06:56 PM
So, you used guestimates of people who counted order numbers and came up with over 2 MILLION Chips from BFL?!

1.2M. And FYI, that amounts to a little over 1000 wafers (http://www.silicon-edge.co.uk/j/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68), or ~$2M which coincidentally is around the amount you would need to be able to order directly at globalfoundries without having to go through intermediaries.  GF has several 100,000 wafer per month capacity, 1000 per year is not exactly a big deal for them.
BFL recently said they could now order directly at GF.  SO yeah, that sounds entirely believable to me, and it also rhymes with claims made by BFL earlier about their % of the installed asic base when you contrast that with their order queue.

Of course you are free to dismiss all those estimates, call me an idiot and actually believe published orders on this forum are more accurate. If so, you would also believe that KnC only sold 158 Jupiters:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249065.0

Not the ~1500 most people assume.
2728  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 04:33:20 PM
Quote from: DeathAndTaxes link=topic=170332.msg3325880#msg33258
Most high end modern PSU no longer need any load on the 5V or 3.3V rails.  

Yeah but most =/= all and that PSU is a few years old. Certainly worth trying.
2729  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 04:20:34 PM
Amazing that HashFast is offering up to 400% more hardware to people.  

Not that amazing once you realize all you get is a chip (which costs them <$50) and you still need a module/controller board for which they can charge whatever the heck they want,  if they dont opensource the interfaces. Even less amazing if you consider they will only give it after 3 months, and without saying if its before 24 months. So all they promise is something which by itself is worthless at some unknown point in the future. Yeay. Its like BFL sending out some extra bare asics for their jalapeno's customers next summer; would that make you happy?
2730  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 02:29:53 PM
So, in your opinion the money "plunged" into preorders exceeds 127 million usd? Are you stupid or did you not do the math before posting that?

BFL was estimated to have 3PH worth of preorders with their 65nm products. Using the cheapest option, that amounts to $135M
So yeah, IMO the total is likely higher than $127M especially since  I doubt BFL has been a big recipient of preorders lately.
Again, Bullshit. http://bfl.ptz.ro/  Even if you triple that number you have only 30 million. and you need to remember that even if, after all those who refunded got their money back, the rest ships, those are peanuts hashing wise.


And you think  more than a tiny fraction of BFL customers reported their orders to that site? Dont make me laugh. Most people never heard of it. If anything Im shocked so many did report it.

This is what I used for my 3PH estimate:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283820.0

Oh and that $300K in refunds changes exactly nothing.

But you can look at it in different ways too, like by valuation of the asic vendors. Asicminer is hardly a major player anymore, but its still valued at $40M. Cointerra value themselves at $20M (pre IPO, Im sure investors would pay much more for it).  Combined they form only a small fraction of the miner market these days, with Bitfury, BFL, KnC and HF likely being the biggest ones right now.

2731  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
So, in your opinion the money "plunged" into preorders exceeds 127 million usd? Are you stupid or did you not do the math before posting that?

BFL was estimated to have 3PH worth of preorders with their 65nm products. Using the cheapest option, that amounts to $135M
So yeah, IMO the total is likely higher than $127M especially since  I doubt BFL has been a big recipient of preorders lately.
2732  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Next difficulty ~215,000,000 ? on: October 12, 2013, 01:53:30 PM
The difficulty need to slow down, its going too fast..

lol. In all likelihood, its only going to speed up over the next ~6 months. The avalanche of 28nm products from countless vendors has barely even started.
2733  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 12, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
I agree, timing of delivery is everything as the rewards on ASIC-mining are completely front-loaded. The tail end, where electricity usage comes into play, is more about how long you, as an individual, can continue to contribute to the distribution and safety of the mining network.

That tail end is also very important for the vendors. HF/CT/etc  may still be able to sell current design asics when D is on the order of 10 billion if they can hit low enough prices. Less efficient machines would have no market beyond "free" electricity customers.
2734  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 12, 2013, 01:14:24 PM
There's nothing moot about electricity prices, you either mine enough BTC to pay them or you don't.

Electricity cost for a KnC jupiter is ~$70/month. Over the useful lifetime of the machine, thats probably <10% of the overall cost.  
OTOH, being one month earlier it will yield about ~100% more bitcoins for a given hashrate.

A machine that is 2x more efficient will be able to run for ~ 1 month longer, but that extra month will yield you less than 1 BTC
2735  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 12, 2013, 01:03:06 PM
hey most of us here I think hope it all works out with hashfast..but I too think you will get a visit from "Murphy" don't ya know....(hey I lost money to bfl and put money into knc...only so much $$$ I can throw at this stuff) ...anyway hope hashfast follows thru at a high level .....the more that get their crap together customer service/output on time wise the better...I swear if there are too many more BFL's out there..we will all run to Litecoin...more noise...more $$ from gpu stuff but heck of a lot less drama imho...

Careful what you wish for. If hashfast delivers on spec, in time and in volume, the impact on difficulty will make it about as painful as getting BFL'ed. Thats the whole point with these preorder asic miners, either you get screwed because the vendors do deliver, or you get screwed because they dont. The simple reality is that the money already plunged on preorders in all likely hood exceeds total mining revenue for the next 6 months.  The only way to have any hope of breaking even is buying from a company that does deliver, while the rest doesnt.

I have not bought any asic, nor do I intend to, but if I were a KnC customer, I would sure wish for HF's chip to come out with a major unfixable flaw in its design.
2736  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 12, 2013, 12:17:49 PM
Yes I did. Profitability curve reaches maximum pretty fast at one point, then mining enough BTC to cover electricity for half a month and then very, very slowly going down onwards. The decline is so slow that it can be compensated with dirt-cheap electricity, and you are right about that. I haven't calculated the costs of moving/relocating, or the factor of getting second-hand miners real cheep, if someone does that I would like to know the results.

Thats not the point. The point is that electricity efficiency is a moot point right now because of the sky high purchase cost. If/when HF or CT machines come down a factor 10x in purchase price, then it will become much more relevant; but for anyone buying now (or having already bought) its mostly irrelevant. At the point where KnC (and even BFL) machines cant pay for their electricity, none of the other more efficient machines have any chance of recovering their purchase price in any reasonable amount of time. And if you think Im wrong about that, you should be ordering from bitmine.ch who promise effiency down to 0.35W/GH
2737  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 12, 2013, 11:38:15 AM
The network is still tolerant to miners who waste the electricity (like Avalon, KnC), but will be intolerant starting march or april.

have you done the math on what happens when difficulty is so high that KnC users are forced to turn off their machines?
BTW, most of them will not be turned off, but be sold to someone with access to dirt cheap electricity in some US states, Russia or China. Heck, even Kuwait ($0.01 per KWH).
2738  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 12, 2013, 11:19:58 AM
Miners are already bought. Also, you've bought KnC which spends double the electricity more than HashFast or Cointerra. People are still buying these brands counting you'll have to turn off your KnC in march-april while they are still mining with theirs. All other old miners, Avalon, AsicMiner (except Bitfury) will be turned off and that will reduce the network hashrate. If you are not going to get positive ROI it doesn't mean others will not get positive ROI. Once the electricity price kicks in a few months this is gonna be totally different ball game.

Once electricity cost becomes an issue big enough for KnC users to turn off their miners, you are looking at a difficulty so high, breakeven for everyone else that purchased HF/CT/BFL at current prices will be expressed in decades, if not centuries.  If electricity costs $0.15 /KWH, then around difficulty 16B is where KnC miners would turn off their machines. At that point, a babyjet would earn you $22 per month with the same electricity cost. I hope you are still young.

2739  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Can I have the same wallet in two computers? on: October 12, 2013, 10:12:40 AM
AFAIK, bitcoind creates 100 addresses in reserve when it creates the wallet. So unless you create more than 100 reception addresses in the client,  you should be ok and the wallets should be in sync.
Dont know if armory does it, I thought it used bitcoind, but if you manually create enough spare addresses to receive coins on before hand, and then copy the wallet, it should be ok.
2740  Other / Off-topic / Re: Which operating system(s) do you use? on: October 12, 2013, 09:52:23 AM
1.elementary os on my main "workstation"

+1

Dual boot with windows 7 for when I need some windows only shit.
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