What this did is, rich got even richer and little guy lost their slightest chance of making any money.
Hmmm, kinda like the fiat system, amirite? |
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and quite frankly with the sub 250USD price, it makes it not profitable to mine.
I think this is the biggest problem facing bitcoin right now. Selling pressure + non profitable mining is not a good situation in this very pivotal time. Unless difficulty drops significantly, I don't see any incentive on why miners would be taking a loss if the price continues tanking. |
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As we can clearly see it has not been a good investment this year. Rich people threw a lot of money at them as some sort of get even richer scheme.
2014 a Bad year for BTC investment for what specific reason? The 2014 Average is 3x higher than the 2013 average. The market price right now as it is dropping is still almost 2x above the 2013 average. You are kidding right? All that matters to anyone that gets paid in bitcoin is the value of the bitcoin at the time they were paid and the value of bitcoin now (or when they exchanged it for fiat or goods if they have already done so). Someone that is trying to make a living is not going to care about any kind of average The price of Bitcoin will drop to 30-50 USD within the next year. Bitcoin is about to take another serious nose dive. Would you care to make a wager on that?  I would match any amount of Coins you put up that you're wrong, we can use a trusted escrow if you want to hold it lol I have no Bitcoins to wager. If I did, I would be cashing out right about now. I think we are going to be seeing it in the 250 range maybe within 30 days. I was right. It did happen a little faster than I thought. I’m still new to Bitcoin. In fact, I still don’t own any. I’ve been watching the price of Bitcoin very closely for a few months. I feel that I can accurately predict what the price of Bitcoin will be. I don’t have any software or anything like that. I don’t even read much about Bitcoin. I watch the price flucuations and make my predictions based on them. I’m not sure about my prediction in a year. The problem is… so much can change between now and then. I do think Bitcoin needs to be priced between 30-50 for it to be healthy. I’m not ready to say where I think Bitcoin will be in the next month. I certainly wouldn’t be holding onto Bitcoins as an investment. I’d only have some to buy stuff with them. Don't think it was that hard to foretell. The trend has been consistently downwards over majority of the past year. No giant positive news and several top exchanges get hacked or close up shop. The question is...where is the bottom, and who is willing to try and catch a falling sword? Reminds me all too much of silver. If bitcoin breaks 200 resistance, there could be a huge free fall ahead in a long bear market. |
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Is Bitcoin really this safe with all this hacking going on?
I really need to know before I throw a ton of money towards it.
You have very little to worry about if you hold and keep the bitcoins on your harddrive and on a backup drive. Now when you choose to transfer your coins to an external source...that's when you're going to have to start worrying. |
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It appears that Litecoin's days are all but numbered. At least bitcoin still has a strong community and development/utility. I would not touch LTC with a 10 foot pole right now.
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Fiat cashout should not pose the biggest problem if you travel to the right country first. He could easyly meet buyers who wants to buy bitcoins anonymously for using in the deep webs or hiding assets.
The bigger challenge comes with the need to explain the money to the taxation authority which is certainly interested in where the money is coming from.
With no waterproof explaination for the thief, he would have to spend it without drawing attention which is susceptible to fail some day.
it is so simple to cash out and then to deposit these money without any question from anybody. you just have to think that Bitcoin allows the money laundering and nothing more. Deposit the money without any question from anybody? In most (western) countries, banks are obligated to report transactions above a certain amount (that amount typically being well below the $100K or equivalent in local currency) or bunches of transactions that appear correlated and add up to an amount above this limit. Simply dumping $5M on a bank account is going to raise some eyebrows with the hackers local tax department, which in turn might alert law enforcement. So unless the hacker lives in a country with sufficient bank secrecy it might be quite difficult to profit from his newly found wealth. This is true. In America, the IRS gets raised flags when you deposit something like $10k or more at a time in your bank account. So unless this guy plans on cashing to fiat and living off cash payments or re-distributing the wealth by giving it to his associates/family...he's going to have people in higher places watching his moves and ultimately questioning where it came from. Looks like he's already starting to use mixers to 'clean' the coins stolen. That's pretty cool blockchain can mark the funds as tainted/hacked, but ultimately there are still ways to get around this. |
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They're back up, but the problem is far from solved. There's still 18k coins missing...so unless those customers who had coins stolen are able to instantly withdraw right now, then the underlying issue remains. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Would definitely withdraw asap if I were a current user...don't make the same mistake. They're back up, but that still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of their losses or intended plan to make up for the stolen funds. Seen this happen with coinex and cryptorush with a 're-opening.' The lost funds are going to come out someone's pocket.
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That's quite cool. But nobody in their right mind (keyword: right) would take that offer right now unless they plan to spend or convert it immediately, lol.
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The most of these exchangers are ran by amateurs, hipters, scammers, kids, who think about their self that they are GODS. That's why these things are happening. Look to their behavior. They think that they are a corporation; I am not sure why the most of these so called exchangers are posing as having large offices like Apple, Microsoft, Bank of America when it is not a shame to be modest. You can run this business from a small and cozy office if you really want that. It's perfectly normal to do that because you don't need hundreds of employees. You need someone(1-2 people) to reply to tickets (if you are a big exangers), checking the incoming and outgoing transactions (by bank wire) and a part time programmer if your platform is safe.He just have to take a look over it daily. Mtgox or Moolah are only two examples of arrogance. Look here : http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e63_1404777061 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9Ak1t09AoThis is a common behavior for almost all these "exchangers". They are "busy" people, full of the word's problems. Nobody can understand what "burden" they carry but in essence they are some kids who saw a lot of money in their hands. They are full of vanity....they know better than anyone how the "things" are in the financial industry even they have 25 years old. They create FINANCIAL "scripts" on knees and saying "it's the best" even they only tested for 1-2 weeks. A financial software costs from few hundreds of thousands to millions of USD. That's why the banks and the real forex companies are paying fortunes for their software security and even so, you cannot be sure. It is SO fucking funny when you see : "We are fully rebuilding our systems from the ground up so that customers can use Bitstamp with full confidence and trust (in 48 hours)" https://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/552091195795845120How can someone check and fix a hacking problem in days when it's about a financial platform? Thousands of code lines must be checked and rechecked + the server configuration. It is impossible in 48 hours;not even in a week. That's why all the hacks are happening. The greed and vanity will bring down all these so called exchangers. Unfortunately, their clients will pay the bill. Basically. http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/2014/12/22/lake-city-man-child-porn/20776261/This is Robert Keith Christopher Jr., better known as DeviantTwo. I worked with him for some time between November and April of 2013-2014 at Hackshard. When he quit Hackshard he became a developer/owner of Cryptorush, which subsequently failed and lost hundreds of bitcoins. I think it's possible that some disgruntled customers who lost money on Cryptorush being hacked planted CP on his computer. The news article says the police received an anonymous tip. How do I know this is the same person? Well he had the same name, lived in the same city, and was about that age and overweight, just like the guy in the picture. I also haven't been able to contact him since December 17th, 5 days before the arrest on the article. |
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That's quite impressive, but I'm guessing those total figures are mostly comprised by the sum of the customer coins held. I'd be interested to know their actual revenue figures from the past 2 years after employee/server/maintenance costs. The question is...do they really have the integrity to stick with this and be willing to work basically free of charge and at a personal cost loss for the next few months, if not years...just to pay back the stolen funds? My gut tells me no...which is why this scenario almost always plays out the same way. Whether or not this was an inside job, from a logical perspective there are very few business owners that would be willing to take that kind of hit, especially knowing it's already a sinking ship. It's like people with burried with outrageous personal debts with a meager job salary. That's why filing for bankruptcy is such a common practice nowadays especially in the current financial climate. |
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The real problem is...who's paying the auditors and who do they work for?
The last thing you want is a conflict of interest where the exchanges in question are hiring their own auditors under the table.
With real life business auditors in the U.S., they're sub-contracted by the government...so they're held to the highest standards should they misreport any information.
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Quite an uneducated post OP, nobody is forcing you to leave your coins with an exchange.
In fact it's highly recommended you do the opposite.
Such a well thought out response. And wonderful diversion from the biggest problems facing bitcoin. Yes, let's just completely put the blame on all the hundreds of thousands of users that lost money in the past 5 or so large exchanges that scammed. Offering real world solutions seems to be your forte. |
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internet screenname
Hello, AOL? We have an escapee from your walled garden... yes, if you'd send the goons with the batons and strait jackets that would be good, thanks. Ah yes, AOL chatrooms. Good times! Now tell me when was the last time you sent a guy on AOL $5,000 to hold for you in good faith while you went and slayed some troglodytes.  |
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I think a lot of you are overly optimistic and downplaying this.
5 million dollars is a huge amount to cover out of pocket unless they were making insane amounts of yearly revenue off fees.
I've seen this play out one too many times in the past.
I hate to think it, but I'm anticipating another 'we're investigating' excuse for a few more weeks or possibly even months while they halt withdrawls and lead customers on. When in fact it's an inside job and they know damn well they're just buying time.
As stated before, they know everyone will be in a rush to withdraw their funds, and their trade volume will go significantly down as they lose customers.
TLDR:
-Current customers panic and want to pull out funds immediately
-Bitstamp issues BS excuses saying their still investigating...keep halting withdrawls for months trying to buy time
-Lose significant trade volume and new customers, resulting in very little fees to pay back any losses
-Issue a 'we're insolvent' message a month or two down the road
-Everyone losses their shit...CEO moves to the bahamas
New exchange launched. Repeat cycle.
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Do you think a company such as Apple or Samsung could just get away with being ran by anonymous CEO's that simply go by an internet screenname?
The public internet didn't exist when Apple was founded, but other than that, let's think about your question. When Apple built and sold its first personal computer, nobody knew who Steve Wozniak was and by all accounts I've heard Steve Jobs was some college kid who used a lot of LSD and made his money building and selling devices to defraud the phone company. They didn't start out as a multi-billion dollar international corporation with a huge corporate headquarters. They were two almost completely anonymous guys in a garage. If the public internet were around and as popular as it is today, Apple's achievement obviously wouldn't have been as big a deal as it was, but I wouldn't be too surprised if Woz and Jobs ended up announcing their new product on some online forum, where they may or may not be using their real names. I don't know much about Samsung's backstory, but I'd be willing to bet almost any amount of money that they also didn't start out as a multi-billion dollar international corporation with a huge corporate headquarters. The world just doesn't work like that, and Bitcoin doesn't change that fact. Most likely it was a couple guys in a garage or a university dorm room (same can be said for Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Dell). Once you become a big company like Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Facebook, Google or Dell it becomes a lot harder to hide your identity.. but I seriously doubt anyone with the possible exception of a few investors had ever heard of the founders or CEOs of those companies before they became big household names. I know where you're trying to head with this. And very, very few companies start out as million dollar or billion dollar powerhouses. However, even when Gates and Jobs first started, they were still real individuals with real names with real addresses. Even before the internet existed, you had to physically call a land line number associated with a person, and mailing items had to be done with an originating address or PO box associated with a person or persons. There was still a sense of accountability. The internet has allowed for much greater leeway when it comes to pulling off scams. Proxy servers, vpn's...anon domain registrars...all allow (or at least make it extremely tough) for someone to know exactly who they're dealing with. Compound that with the fact that bitcoin addresses do not have IP addresses or physical names attached to them, and it makes it a true game of blind faith when dealing with a lot (or should I say majority) of these bitcoin startups and exchanges. No. Creating an exchange with just an internet screenname is not acceptable. I don't care how much you try to rationalize it...we've seen this play out one too many times. The system has to change. With new technology comes greater responsibility. And greater responsibility commands accountability. You cannot have accountability and remain anonymous. Those two are not synonymous in a non-ideal world. It's really a tough situation. Hardcore bitcoiners want a sovereign currency freed from the reigns of legislation and government control. Yet those same users end up getting scammed because of the lack of government controls and regulation. It's yet another case of 'you can't have your cake and eat it too.' |
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!!!! Wow, sometimes it's better not to remember, right? lol
If it makes you feel any better, I think there were very few that got in as early as you did that had the guts/courage to hold all the way up to the ATH. Win some, lose some.
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Apologies in advance if you take offense to me reordering - but it helps my narrative. There is always your unedited post to refer to above. The underlying basic tech of bitcoin may flourish under another new improved infrustructure/name down the road, but I think Bitcoin in itself has seen its best days, and lost grasp of its reigns in a downward spiral once the Mt. Gox debacle first hit. It's in an unrecoverable phase, ironically akin to the excuses the scamming exchange operators give.
OK. I can respect that opinion. I even agree with some of what you say. I think your fatalistic conclusion is absolutely wrong, however. Nobody has a crystal ball. But like ass holes, everyone has an opinion. And it is of *MY* opinion (and probably less popular because we're on a bitcoin promoted forum) that bitcoin exhibits all classic characteristics of a bubble market...AND COMBINED with the long string of negative press/fraud...will continue in its downward price trend until a) future investors shy away, b) current holders jump ship, and c) interest naturally dies down.
So all market bubbles are fatal? Here's the thing. You sound like you may have entered this space not long before (or perhaps even after) the spectacular run-up of a year ago. But for Bitcoin, it was just one more cycle of a repeated pattern. Sure, the magnitude was larger, but proportionally on-track with previous cycles. As, I expect, will be the next cycle. You can draw whatever conclusion you will from the absolute value of the last crash. But it is by no means our most significant crash proportionally. And looking at the history (sorry for semi-quoting myself): Peak $1200 USD, before receding over a year's time to ~$275?
Peak April 2013 at $240, before receding to $65.
Peak August 2012, when it shot up to $15 before losing over half its value.
Peak Feb 2012 - $7.50 before dropping to $4.30.
Peak June 2011 - $35 before crashing to $2.25
Peak Q3 2010 - $0.50 to $0.20
Peak Q2 2010 - $0.18 to $0.05... sure, each peak is followed by a trough. But here is the important observation to make: each successive trough is higher than the last. The euphoria phase of bitcoin is over, imo.
Again, you're speaking as if the last peak was the only euphoric phase. I see a roughly periodic wave function with exponentially-growing magnitude. How much of humanity was involved this time? Heck, most of humanity has not even heard of Bitcoin. I believe that next cycle, a larger share of the population will be participating. Larger magnitude yet. And unlike for certain recoverable bubble markets like the stock market and housing...bitcoin is not a necessity, but rather an alternative and luxury.
I'm fairly well convinced that the entire world fiat money structure is likely to collapse some time within my lifetime (I recognize some other rational people may not agree with my assessment). When that event transpires, an 'alternative' will be a necessity. If Bitcoin is mature enough when the cataclysm is upon us, Bitcoin would be a wonderful alternative. Indeed, it is a nearly ideally-engineered money - as opposed to that fiat shit. And if Bitcoin can be grown such that it merely overtakes fiat, we can avoid the effects of the collapse altogether. But, yet another discussion for another thread. To the rest of your post, I'll just respond that this wave was not the first, and I believe it is unlikely that it was the last. I definitely respect your points, and I will not refute what you stated about the previous run-ups and subsequent falls. I was actually a spectator since around 2011, but honestly never gave much consideration to investing until it started really gaining worldwide press attention. Furthermore, (sorry if this wasn't clear), I didn't state that all bubble markets ultimate fail. I stated that markets that have experienced bubbles such as the stock market and housing market are necessities and will always be around. Bitcoin itself is not a necessity so long as credit cards, money orders, bullion, and money orders are in existence. It's a splendid alternative, but not a fundamental market in and of itself...even in a SHTF scenario. I would see bitcoin videos all over the 'related videos' section while watching silver outlook clips (coincidentally, they started really popping up right around the time the price hike nearing the $2xx mark and up). It was then that I really started looking at crypto as a legitimate alternative form of currency. I come from the silver-bug side of things, so it was a bit of a departure from the norm, but the parallels between the two and their die-hard communities was undeniable. However, my tune quickly soured after I had not only been scammed on a forum, but by 2 exchanges early in my bitcoin career. All after having to jump through a seemingly neverending series of hoops just to acquire BTC. This is a fundamental flaw. Yes, you can argue I was dumb and naieve for leaving my money in these exchanges, but you also have to consider there were hundreds of thousands of others (with much more experience than I) that were taken. So this is not a simple clearcut case of 'told ya so'...else none of these exchanges would have had any volume from the get go. The Mt. Gox debachle and withdrawl problems started I believe 6 months to a year before they officially shut their doors, so many that were in doubt that actually tried to pro-actively withdraw funds still found themselves unable to. Some of these cases and extenuating circumstances weren't so simple. I also stated my opinion that the euphoria peaked right around the time when the price was scaling towards its ATH, which is backed by google trends data. http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bitcoin&cmpt=qCoincidentally, the peaks and valleys pretty much share a direct correlation with bitcoin's market value. In fact, the google trends chart is almost an exact trace of the 3 year price chart of bitcoin. So I think the market price is more of a factor of the long term sustenance of bitcoin than some may think. Sure, the technology can be amazing, but if there is not an influx of interest and new funding, then it will not survive. You always need investors for technology. Again, I'm not discrediting that another technology 'based' off bitcoin won't succeed and ultimately supplant it in the future, but I just don't see Bitcoin being the one that sees the finish line. It's simply struggled against the grips of black hatters and greedy scumbags that have exhausted consumer confidence. I truly do believe the government is already in the works of creating their own version of cryptocurrency that will basically destroy the bitcoin and altcoin markets altogether. It sucks, but we all know they have their noses on the pulse of the industry and technology. And if it's anyone that's going to be profiting off cryptos heading into the next decade, they'll make sure it's themselves. |
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Jbreher: I agree with some of your points, though to me (may not be the same for all) it seems like you're trying to downplay the greater issue by staking blame of risk vs. reward at the end user when most have been essentially robbed blind without recourse. Or are we all to just 'expect the worst' in the crypto community when entrusting our bitcoins in transactions?
Well, if the inevitable result of entrusting exchanges is getting ripped off, then yes - I suppose we each should expect the worst. It seems to me no different than any other part of life. If you are going to trust the untrustworthy, you're gonna get screwed. I'm not saying that the thievery is justified. I'm saying that we should regard it as inevitable that enabling scammers is going to result in scams occurring. p2p? I've combed over that multiple times in other posts. It's no different. You're still putting your trust in another faceless entity over the internet with no verifiable name/address/location. Go through an escrow? Lol. What if the escrow packs of shop once they've hit personal economic hardship?
I guess this one is on me for not clarifying. How 'bout I say f2f - as in face-to-face. I've had a 100% track record so far with this. As have all of which I am aware. You keep saying I'm blaming the technology. No, I'm not.
I must have misunderstood you then. Perhaps due to an earlier quote from your OP: And this is precisely the reason why I believe bitcoin will ultimate fade into the sunset of obscurity along with failed techs like tablet pc's and palm pilots.
What good is fiat without banks? Or are we all to just hoard coins in our personal computers and let them collect dust while maintaining a 'wait and see/trust no one' approach? I'm sure that's the entire point of bitcoin, right? To just hoard and remain stagnant.
I have no idea what you are indicating by "What good is fiat without banks?". I don't think there is any particular 'supposed to do'. Crypto is a technology, not a director of human activity. Maybe start by asking what it is that you want it to do for you? Hoarding is a possibility, sure. If more of the planet comes onboard, you're likely to accumulate purchasing power by simply holding a fixed amount of it. Of course, with no activity, the world may not hop onboard. You can use it to purchase things.... the list of vendors is large and growing larger by the day. I personally feel that remittances (a multi-billion USD market with astronomical profit margins) will be the first real 'killer app', but I expect that it is dependent upon several more years' worth of infrastructure buildout. Despite the cynicism I display in the opening sentences of this post, I am hopeful that crypto continues to grow, to the point where it overtakes fiat in gross global economic activity. I see this as more likely than not (your analysis may differ). A wonderous world awaits humanity if we can wrest monetary control from the hands of self-rewarding parasitic warmonger vampire-squids. (That last sentence should be a clue that I suspect that you and I likely could have an extended discussion on the merits or demerits of the fiat monetary system - but that should likely wait for another thread). The problem is...how are people supposed to exchange bitcoin if we are not to trust exchanges...at all? F2F is of course the most foolproof method...but that's essentially destroying the entire point of crypto currency. It's for the digital transfer of funds quickly and efficiently to people 1 mile away...or 8,000 miles away. Having to seek out potential buyers in your local city, set up meet times/drive to meet...is a borderline archaic method in this day an age. About the only time people do this is for the sale of tangible goods like furniture on craigslist. It should not be the go-to means of digital currencies...or that's a very very bad sign. I'd love to see alternative exchange technologies that have truly secure means, or are physically insured. But I'm not sure they exist. Or else I'd assume they'd be way more popular by now. Either that, or they have some severe disadvantages that has prevented them from gaining large volume. |
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