Bitpay's screen does a timeout for 10 minutes waiting for 1 block chain confirmation. That is up to the merchant as I understand it, and the ones I've used all accepted zero confirms as soon as the transaction was "seen" on the blockchain p2p. Just a few seconds as I said. That's perfectly safe for goods and services that aren't delivered immediately at high cost. Registering domains can't accept 0 confirmations. So many other examples where 0 confirmations are not acceptable. But I also think you are technically incorrect. Bitpay and the merchant have no way to know that localbitcoins sent the payment until the 1 confirmation is seen on the block chain (unless localbitcoins and Bitpay have a collaboration or Bitpay is sniffing transactions at major pools). You must be lucky to be using a very integrated wallet and merchant collaboration. I don't think most naive users would see your experience. |
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You will also note in my other comments I did not say using a fragile gateway service was necessarily a bad idea (in fact I suggested you contact them to work out an interface), but merely pointed out you should consider how your business will cope with their (quite likely) failure to continue providing the service you need.
Initially you said I should give up and go directly to being a KYC slave ( you perhaps not realizing that I no longer have a residence identification in the USA to comply with the Patriot Act which stated the address on your id or utility bill with your name has to match the address of residence claimed, nor do I have "official" residence where I currently reside, so myself jumping through KYC hoops in terms of a merchant account (which I used to have obviously) is not so simple for me at the moment). So for me the issue may be the ability to start or not start a business quickly. I would obviously choose the former (given my current time and financial constraints). Then I pointed out some of the paradigm shifts involved, so you've apparently morphed your understanding, which is great. Admitting when you've learned from someone else is a sign of mutual respect. I think I've done the same in public when I've learned from you. I was slightly astonished by the deaf reaction to my attempt to try to light a fire under some ways to drive adoption. I am starting to really lean towards Bitcoin's community is suffering from lackadaisical ("ho hum, oh that's just the way it is") leaders who lack vision and the ability to think outside-the-box and push some significant paradigm shifts. Just to give you an example of the outrageous bullshit Paypal does. I sold some BTC on localbitcoins and the seller of BTC deposited to my Paypal account using a stolen Paypal account. So the transaction was reversed. Then Paypal restricted my account (which I opened a decade or more ago) and requested I jump through additional verification hoops which I can not complete because I don't have the documents they requested and can't obtain them. I used to use my Paypal account for many things, and now I am unable too. Whose ongoing loss is that? (theirs, mine, and the entire global economy as this KYC overkill mayonnaise spreads like a plague) The system is effectively shutting out a very talented developer who can drive $millions in GDP (and much more than that in the butterfly fan out effect). in contrast to Bitpay's normal transaction taking 10 - 30 minutes and being as obtuse and frustrating as hell to a novice I have no idea what you are talking about. When I've used bit pay's service as a customer (roughly a dozen times), it took about 5 seconds and was extremely to click on the "bitcoin:" link provided which autofilled in the amount and address in my wallet. Bitpay's screen does a timeout for 10 minutes waiting for 1 block chain confirmation. The naive customer shits there wondering WTF. Then sometimes (quite often in my experience) the 10 minutes times out because the 1 confirmation didn't happen. So Bitpay says the transaction is aborted, but the payment was already sent by the customer, so the customer ends up lost having paid but not knowing how to get the confirmation from Bitpay that payment was received. I've learned that I can save the prior URL before Bitpay redirects to the timeout URL and then reload that after 30 minutes or so and get the confirmation from Bitpay. But naive non programmers would never figure that out. That is the most piece of shit system I've ever seen. A merchant is suicidal if they are using Bitpay. They will get so many complaints from customers who don't know WTF happened. Btw, clicking the bitcoin: link never works for me with localbitcoins. I have no idea if there needs to be a browser plugin. There are no instructions provided by Bitpay. |
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But the idea of a general purposes service that allows unverified merchants to receive BTC is just not going to work. It might work for a little while, but then it will be abused and shut down.
Are you being realistic, defeatist, or a little of both? Omniscience? It is ostensibly working now (well?) and proliferating (?). Apparently these were the available options some months ago: http://99bitcoins.com/how-to-buy-bitcoin-with-a-credit-card/And the updated list: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_To_Buy_Bitcoins_With_Your_Credit_CardOne issue you will have to worry about is what happens to your business model when they shut down, which is reasonably likely, or at least a significant risk.
Before they shut those BTC services down, let's say I have already signed up 1000 customers in my subscription (pay as you go) business model. So now they understand they load a BTC balance into my site and they consume the balance in BTC units "pay per use". So now they understand our site is denominated in BTC and they've learned to think in terms of their unit-of-account being BTC (and thus probably started to think about if they want to hold some BTC as an investment). Remember I am targeting virile Western males in my business, thus this overlaps well with Bitcoin's known demographics (younger white males). Also by this time they've noticed our site is providing features they've come to depend on that are not provided by any competing site. They have already dozens of contacts in our site they don't want to lose. Thus they are hooked. Thus they will find a way to go purchase some BTC and continue to pay us in BTC. And by that time, they've probably learned to use a more efficient means to purchase BTC than a credit card (but they may still resort to the credit card option in a pinch and these bitinsanity services need to diversify their business models to provide optional more efficient means, e.g. Dwolla). Thus our revenue stream would not get cut off. In that interim time, we can endeavor to jump through all the KYC and AML circus hoops, so we can accept credit cards directly. And who knows which other avenues will arrive in the interim time as well... Such services have been and will shut down due to fraud regardless of government abuse or spying, or the lack thereof. That's largely a free market outcome, in the present environment.
IMO a myopic and defeatist attitude. You ignore the possibility of paradigm shifts. For example, the paradigm shift that I elucidated upthread that with BTC as the output, it is impossible to prove who is receiving the funds and thus merchant agreements that exclude reselling are impotent. The traditional financial sector is paid to be dumb and slow to adapt. It could take them year or years to realize they've be outwitted by technological paradigm shifts. By that time, our ecosystem has maybe already gained critical mass. These sites are experimenting with advanced verification methods that are not normally employed. They have the advantage that the BTC purchaser is extra motivated and willing to wait a little bit longer and jump through a few more KYC hoops than your typical credit card transaction. Dwolla is also approaching it from the same perspective. They can do some instant verification and notify that transaction has cleared initial verification, thus allowing the parties to a transaction to decide if they want to deliver the goods. And then they can consume some hours or days to finalize the transaction and verification. From the good customer's perspective, as long he or she can receive the goods quickly, he or she may not be affected by the delay (in contrast to Bitpay's normal transaction taking 10 - 30 minutes and being as obtuse and frustrating as hell to a novice!). The additional verification is a hassle and some customers may not follow through. So there needs to be a strong enough carrot to motivate them. In my business model, they won't be purchasing until they are already have a dire need to reply to some new contacts that they already invested effort into finding and contacting. Also bitinsanity and dwolla appear to be able to avoid manual verification for many first time customers, when the amount involved is very small and their instant verification is able to verify with sufficient probability, i.e. a callback to the phone number that matches the address on the credit card or for example Verified By Visa. Or in dwolla's case, verifying login of the user's online banking account, because if a hacker has that, then they've likely already cleaned out the account in an easier way (such as issuing transfers from within that bank account site). These companies depend on repeat business to lower the fraud rate and cost. Their fraud cost is built in to their fee model. So you can't just assume that all this sites will fail due to fraud. Their entire business models are built around verification modeling. Are you sure you are omniscient? Right now I think they are more likely to fail due to lack of customer base and dwindling interest in Bitcoin until the price finally bottoms under $150. So they need a boost to drive more customers. And to differentiate themself from the herd of companies offering this service. |
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Why KYC and AML will collapse the global economy If you have a legitimate service to offer, and it sounds like you do, go through the necessarily verification processes and you can get signed up as a merchant. But the idea of a general purposes service that allows unverified merchants to receive BTC is just not going to work. It might work for a little while, but then it will be abused and shut down.
You don't understand the entire point of the autonomy of Bitcoin. You need to go back to Bitcoin 101 class. For one of many reasons orthogonal to the degrees-of-freedom efficiency means more innovation (including the ability of people in the 3rd world to quickly set up an ecommerce site without jumping through hoops, and testing a site idea before committing a lot of time to set up a proper corporate entity, etc), if someone doesn't like you in government they make a phone call and you are shut off without due process. This is the new normal. Or you are coerced to spy for the government (or even some fraudster within the government who has the power to prevent you from reporting him to the authorities because he is the authorities) in return for not being shut down. And so being anonymous is extremely important.
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If you think Bitinsanity does what you want then talk to them about an API. Why are you talking to us, when they are the ones you have the service you are looking for?
Did the epiphany hit you yet? Bitinsanity sends the BTC to any address the customer provides. They do that now. Thus a merchant can give the customer a BTC address. And the customer is then in effect buying for the merchant. Bitinsanity has nothing to do with that. All they need to do offer a slightly more programmable API on what THEY ALREADY DO.
Great! As I said in the other message, talk to them. One issue you will have to worry about is what happens to your business model when they shut down, which is reasonably likely, or at least a significant risk. Because for one reason I haven't been able to get in touch with anyone at these credit card -> BTC providers. Maybe some of you guys have some contacts and can get the ball rolling. The point of autonomy is that the market will keep adapting and finding new avenues. The monetary system is going to die and they will end up shutting the entire global economy down. But we plan on doing something about that. Rome wasn't built in a day. Step-by-step. Carpe diem. Seize the opportunities that exist and build more in the meantime. These providers could potentially maximize their growth near-term and use that to find new avenues (e.g. the Dwolla -> BTC option and others). Happy that I finally got my point through. The important first step is getting influential people to understand what I was talking about. Thanks. |
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Did the epiphany hit you yet? Bitinsanity sends the BTC to any address the customer provides. They do that now. Thus a merchant can give the customer a BTC address. And the customer is then in effect buying for the merchant. Bitinsanity has nothing to do with that. All they need to do offer a slightly more programmable API on what THEY ALREADY DO. ACH transfers are most certainly not final.
I know damn well there is a 30 - 60 day window for extraordinary cases. Please read what I wrote. I said in "most cases" they are final. Chargebacks on ACH are generally discouraged by the banks if the provider has done the necessary verification procedures and received permission from the owner of the bank account. Dwolla is in the business of working closely with banks on this process. It's not extraordinary at all. Account information is stolen, fraudulent ACHs are put through and then they are reversed. That happens constantly. It's also built into the cost structure of those offering legitimate services. Dwolla is in the business of verifying the user and following procedures for ACH such as obtaining a signed permission with a scan of id. The instant verification is only to get the 4 day transfer delay rolling asap. Then there is 4 days for Dwolla to follow up on verification. This is night and day difference between accepting credit cards with only an AVS verification step. There is nothing remarkable about any of this.
What is remarkable is how obtuse you are. Are you a gatekeeper? If you have a legitimate service to offer, and it sounds like you do, go through the necessarily verification processes and you can get signed up as a merchant. But the idea of a general purposes service that allows unverified merchants to receive BTC is just not going to work. It might work for a little while, but then it will be abused and shut down.
You don't understand the entire point of the autonomy of Bitcoin. You need to go back to Bitcoin 101 class. |
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ACH transfers are most certainly not final.
I know damn well there is a 30 - 60 day window for extraordinary cases. Please read what I wrote. I said in "most cases" they are final. Chargebacks on ACH are generally discouraged by the banks if the provider has done the necessary verification procedures and received permission from the owner of the bank account. Dwolla is in the business of working closely with banks on this process. Biggest problem with the model is sham merchants set up to cash out stolen credit cards. Won't work.
The bad people can do that now with the existing credit card -> BTC providers I linked to. No need to set up a merchant. Just go to the providers I linked to and use the credit card to buy BTC. That is why those providers have sophisticated verification procedures, that can take up to hours. These vendors do the verification that because they are on the hook for chargebacks. They risk that in exchange for But more importantly, they have submitted to verification of their identity, trustworthiness and creditworthiness. A sham merchant set up for the purpose of accepting btc from stolen credit cards via the service you describe (that does not require AML/KYC, but even more importantly anti-fraud verification) would not care about chargebacks, in fact it would be sure they would occur. Bitinsanity has to verify the card holder in either case. There is no difference. If I have a bunch of stolen credit cards, I don't need to set up a fake merchant, I can go directly to bitinsanity and try to get $25 in BTC from each card. Where is your logic? You could attempt to make a deal with one of the existing services, but: 1) their merchant agreement likely has restrictions on reselling,
They don't need to do reselling. All they need to do provide an GET or POST HTTP API (i.e. a special URL) to populate the BTC address field automatically and provide a redirection after the transaction is complete. They are already sending the BTC to any address specified. and 2) they would likely do the same verification and creditworthiness checks on you anyway (otherwise they risk being caught in the middle)
They can't check who owns the BTC address. Impossible. You are entirely missing the programming points here. And you are a programmer. Did the epiphany hit you yet? Bitinsanity sends the BTC to any address the customer provides. They do that now. Thus a merchant can give the customer a BTC address. And the customer is then in effect buying for the merchant. Bitinsanity has nothing to do with that. All they need to do offer a slightly more programmable API on what THEY ALREADY DO. |
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Biggest problem with the model is sham merchants set up to cash out stolen credit cards. Won't work.
The bad people can ATTEMPT to do that now (but they will fail bcz of verification) with the existing credit card -> BTC providers I linked to. No need to set up a merchant. Just go to the providers I linked to and use the credit card to buy BTC. That is why those providers have sophisticated verification procedures (e.g. an automated callback to the phone number that matches the card address or asking the customer capture a pic of their id and submit it), that can take up to hours. Also that is why bitinsanity only allows a maximum of $25 purchase per card (per window of time). I am only talking about making the integration work seamlessly for the good customers. Sounds to me like you don't have much experience with ecommerce. In 2000, I wrote an entire download site (downloadfast.com) that did payment processing for download software merchants. unless there is a bank that will agree to not chargeback transactions that are following some defined set of requirements, this is not going to work.
From my understanding, the banks can for whatever reason simply reverse any transaction for something like 6 months. So all the user has to say is their card was stolen and it wasnt them who got the BTC.
Or the bank could say, the bitcoins are tracing direct to terrorist activity so they are confiscating the funds used.
Also Visa and Mastercard are actively making it more difficult, for obvious reasons. Short of Visa/MC themselves adopting BTC, this seems a very unlikely scenario. There are some small cap places that do this, but how long they stay in business?
They are in business now and accepting credit cards for bitcoins. While it exists, it is a way to boostrap adoption. From the larger ecosystem, we can gain inertia to give the middle finger to credit cards. Also these services could also accept Dwolla for purchasing BTC. Dwolla does an instant verification of the user's bank account by logging in with the user's provided credentials to the user's account at the bank's online website. The transfer takes 3 - 4 days, but it can't be charged back in most cases (ACH transfers are usually final). The same streamlining of integration that I proposed applies so the 4 day wait isn't a burden on the customer. Also don't assume TPTB are against Bitcoin. I think they love it. The overriding globalists want to destroy the existing monetary system and replace it with a global control. A global non-anonymous ledger is a coup for them. |
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Combine these two: a) https://blockchain.info/api/api_receiveb) http://www.bitcoininsanity.com/ or https://www.bitin.co/buyTherefor I can issue the customer a bitcoin address, which they must MANUALLY copy+paste to purchase some BTC using their credit card (paypal, etc) which is then all automated from that point forward, except the customer must MANUALLY return to the ecommerce site and their payment will be typically be confirmed within Bitcoin's 10 minutes for 1 confirmation. (note they could also pay directly from any BTC they already have, for those rarer customers that do own BTC) The downside is the user has to copy+paste a BTC address to another website, and then manually navigate back to the ecommerce site and wait 10 - 30 minutes for confirmation. I did email the following companies to ask if they can setup more seamless integration and am waiting any response but appears they are not responsive: http://www.bitcoininsanity.com/https://www.bitin.co/buyDoes any one have a way to accomplish a more seamless integration so that naive customers don't get lost? Ideally what should happen is I use the blockchain.info API to generate a new BTC address and the customer should be automatically redirected to a page where they can pay with a credit card to buy BTC which is sent to that BTC address (the address automatically set for the customer), then after the credit card transaction is initiated (and without waiting for the block chain confirmation and without waiting for the credit card processing company to do all their manual verification, e.g. without waiting for them to complete a request for scan of id or phone callback), the customer should be immediately returned automatically to the ecommerce site, so the ecommerce site knows that customer has initiated the transaction and the ecommerce site will know it is waiting for the blockchain.info API callback after the BTC has been sent and the block chain makes one confirmation. The point of returning the customer automatically and immediately to the ecommerce site is because many virtual goods are essentially cost-free, so the ecommerce site may choose to deliver the virtual goods immediately (e.g. a online dating site membership or download software subscription) and rescind the virtual good later if confirmation fails. In other words, chargebacks are an acceptable cost in return for the advantage of giving the good customers immediate seamless, automated access. Without this, Bitcoin will never be widely used for ecommerce!!! I am so surprised that no one has done this yet!!! We've got to get millions of new merchants to accept BTC. And millions of new customers to learn that their merchant does. This is how you do it!!! The ecommerce site can also accept direct BTC transfers for those who already have BTC (which is the vast minority right now), so this will drive millions of people into the ecosystem. What is the advantage over accepting credit cards directly via Paypal or Moneybookers (skrill)? Do you have to ask?! Don't you know about unexpected holdbacks, account freezes, and other bullshit when dealing with those. And also to get paid in BTC and hold balances in BTC. And also because the above method in theory doesn't require the small merchant provide any documentation and KYC/AML charades. I have an immediate need for such a service. If anyone can provide the service, I will use it and pay you. |
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If history show us anything...
...its that the participants in statism (aka society run by government) all game the system for maximum short-term individual gain and there is no global (in the time domain, i.e. long-term) optimization feedback mechanism. This what the Petri dish analogy was about in my essay linked from the first (opening) post (i.e. "OP") of this thread. Humans are not like ants, in that they have a large enough brain that they can function without the hive and thus human prioritize their self-interest. |
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Isn't Europe about to collapse into a Sovereign Debt collapse BIG BANG this year (or next) according to Martin Armstrong's models. In what universe would that not mean a collapse in real estate prices and an increase in taxation??
Armstrong has also written about the bubble in real estate in Switzerland. He has also written about the real estate loans throughout Europe denominated in Swiss francs, that will blow up because of the abrupt and egregious appreciation of the franc since the Euro peg failed recently.
C-O-N-T-A-G-I-O-N.
The comments in this thread are interesting because it means there are some (most?) who still don't believe the contagion will affect all of Europe (are they correct?) and thus the stampede out of Europe will be abrupt as these people wake up to a contagion and try to all exit at the same time too late.
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Isn't Europe about to collapse into a Sovereign Debt collapse BIG BANG this year (or next) according to Martin Armstrong's models. In what universe would that not mean a collapse in real estate prices and an increase in taxation??
Armstrong has also written about the bubble in real estate in Switzerland. He has also written about the real estate loans throughout Europe denominated in Swiss francs, that will blow up because of the abrupt and egregious appreciation of the franc since the Euro peg failed recently.
C-O-N-T-A-G-I-O-N.
The comments in this thread are interesting because it means there are some (most?) who still don't believe the contagion will affect all of Europe (are they correct?) and thus the stampede out of Europe will be abrupt as these people wake up to a contagion and try to all exit at the same time too late.
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CoinCube that is the big open question which is regularly discussed at http://mpettis.comI don't think it will be smooth. I am expecting a Minsky Moment collapse and I think China will gyrate through war first before settling into a new path of growth. I think this is why Asia won't become the new financial center of the world until 2033. China can't head there in a straight line. ... A relevant post about China that I made in November 2014: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=365141.msg9438334#msg9438334 |
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What the heck does this have to do with Skycoin? Hardware keys are an orthogonal issue to the specifics of your altcoin. Hardware Key Storage Device:For generating and loading keys on to a hardware key storage devices, we will need to fund open source hardware keypad. Could be $10 to $30. A hardware key storage device can be as simple as a $1 ARM processor on a PCB board. This is a $1 ARM processor, 32 bit, 50 Mhz, 16 Kb of flash memory. Just enough for a program and a few private keys. The cost is $1.15 to manufacture. The PCB board is $0.10, the other components are less than a penny each and total unit will cost $0.30 within two years and the 500 Mhz ARM processors will be $1 soon.  If you want to add an LCD screen, then it costs $4. If you want an LCD screen, a key pad and ability to connect to internet over GSM using a SIM card, then its $12. This is what we will be carrying our coins around on 48 months from now. The level of security this provides is absolute. Coins cannot be stolen, even if your operating system is infected on every level. I remember I had the username 'contagion' too: As these Russian hackers become more and more proficient and more numerous (their economy is collapsing and is owned by oligarchs so they need a vocation like hacking), how does this impact the integration of Bitcoin with sites that normally promise their users repudiation, e.g. Paypal?? Thus I suspect we will see Paypal integrate with a hardware wallet soon? A solution could be a custom ASIC hardware key, wherein the private key is not accessible; it would interface with your (optionally deterministic hierarchical) wallet via USB but you would be require to press a physical button to release signatures.
Are you describing a Trezor? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122438.0A quick glance and that appears to be what I was suggesting. Such projects can be crowd financed these days with Kickstarter. By those terms, a big precentage of bitcoin users are average joes and could be robbed easily...
Who's gonna educate dem average joes? Besides that I don't think real average joes even know what bitcoin is right now.
If the economy-of-scale is sufficient (i.e. 100s of millions of users, not the paltry 1 - 2 million Bitcoin has after 6 years) the necessary hardware will be integrated into the smart phones. Then it will simply work plug-and-play for n00bs. This is why I (formerly AnonyMint, TheFascistMind, UnunoctiumTesticles, etc) wrote about the adoption rate of Bitcoin slowing and of Monero. Note I clarified why adoption rate slows as large entities aggregate users and capital. Readers would be wise to click every link above and learn. Sorry this is not boasting. It is fact. |
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One opportunity no one in Bitcoin universe talks about
You simply can't have the Bitcoin asset go to $10 million (under the false conditions of that false assumption stated above) without killing several billion people.
That is why you must have derivatives if you realistically want to scale in the world's wealth.
Sounds like hyperbole...No one thinks Bitcoin will (or even should) go to $10M per coin by 2015...come on dude. I agree. My posts in this thread are about how to increase interest and capital involved in Bitcoin ecosystem while reducing volatility and supporting a normal rise in the price consumerate with rapidly growing ecosystem and adoption. Yet the supporters of Bitcoin attack it. Go figure   Apparently some readers are too stupid (or closed-minded Butthurt) to distinguish an enhancement from a criticism. Just goes to show you can fool a dog to fight his own tail (and lick his balls and his anus). Thank for those who have more knowledge about derivatives taking the time to make some explanations. Admittedly my patience was too short to elaborate sufficiently.
It doesn't really matter that some people are ignorant of the utility of derivatives, because they will always gravitate to what is succeeding.
And derivatives boost the ecosystem by orders-of-magnitude, because a large portion of the business world can't participate without them. No hedging, sorry they can't do Bitcoin.
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In other words, I propose an option system where there is no centralized counter party risk. The protocol makes sure settlement occurs before margin is depleted.
That's essentially the point of the counterparty protocol. For decentralised bets you can use certainly make use of it. In Counterparty, I can't hold my value in any altcoin (because I like the features of that altcoin, e.g. anonymity, transaction rate, more trusted, etc) and then have my value pegged to any unit-of-account. Thus Counterparty can not do (entirely) what I have proposed. |
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I had proposed that each contract could choose a different feed instead of a consensus feed (e.g. schellingcoin); however, these feeds will cause consensus verification (e.g. mining) nodes to incur a resource cost (to access the external feed). So there would need to be some standardization of choices of feeds, centralization of propagation of the feeds into the network, and the cost the parties need to pay for this. Again this is yet another evidence that decentralized consensus is a lie and further reinforces the point of my OP about true decentralization. In other words, I am saying we are probably doing everything wrong. Throw away PoW, PoS, and all that (but my proposal doesn't prevent their participation and they are welcome to attempt to prove me wrong in the market place). Note I corrected the answer on a Google IQ test in which the correct answer I provided is in its generative essence the same logic as Schelling points: http://unheresy.com/Essence%20of%20Genius.htmlYou're the captain of a pirate ship...The answer given above is incorrect. If you offer all the booty to 51% of the crew, one of them might get motivated to vote against your proposal because they have nothing to lose if your proposal wins (and they might want to try their luck at another proposal that offers them more). Contemplate that deeply! Whereas, the correct answer is to propose that anyone who votes NO will not share in the booty. TADA! |
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