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281  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Marketplace (Altcoins) / Re: Pay what you want 1-page summaries: Stratis, Sia, Monero on: June 12, 2017, 05:06:43 AM
Share if you like them, and all feedback (good or bad) is welcome! Hope you enjoy.

Stratis: www.gum.co/stratis
Monero: www.gum.co/monero
Sia: www.gum.co/siacoin
Cool stuff man Smiley
282  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ADL] Adel | Startup Incubator for Blockchain Innovation on: June 11, 2017, 09:16:15 PM
Here is the guide:

Adel - Walkthrough, Nxt Wallet, token generation

http://wp.me/p3eaA5-iiZ
Odd, I have selected confirm and I do not see a generate token entry box. Is this an error?
283  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Crowdsale of Braid, horror movie on: June 11, 2017, 09:05:35 PM
So, what you guys think ?
Interesting but 89k raised, sad
284  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] HEAT: 3.0 crypto*multisig fiat*a2a hft*1000tps*DSA*PoS+PoP*e2ee chat* on: June 10, 2017, 07:45:49 PM
At least this has a strong team.
You gotta be freaking shitting me! These 2 dumbledorks are the worst team I have ever seen. In what twisted evil world do we live in where these two buttscratchers are called a strong team. I would none of them trust to hold a bottle of water for me. Fuck off!
Lol, dumbledorks  Cheesy
I can't even get mad at you. More big red text plz loll
285  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] HEAT: 3.0 crypto*multisig fiat*a2a hft*1000tps*DSA*PoS+PoP*e2ee chat* on: June 10, 2017, 07:43:16 PM
Here's the HEAT roadmap. Feeling click-baited yet today? Let's fix that below  Cheesy


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1959885.0
Wow looks like shit!
Stewie, for 12 million you are basically getting equity in a blockchain company (after conversion). This is beyond undervalued. To make things better, they already have ties with a 6billion mkt cap bank. Sure everything is not perfect yet; however, they have been working hard.

There are shit OTC blockchain stocks that are around this cap. At least this has a strong team.

Beyond undervalued? Why  do you say that? Im trying to work out if my money is better in shares with HEAT
Might be shilling because I own a lot. But, have you seen interbit? http://btl.co/press/BP-ENI-WIEN-COMPLETE-INTERBIT-ENERGY-PILOT.html
HEAT might be faster than their system. Their marketcap is 100 mill. When HEAT hits the equity market it might be worth a lot due to blockchain hype (you will be getting first dibs on shares).

Maybe HEAT devs can explain, is HEAT capable of doing things similar to interbit? I believe this system is not only faster but it will be more developer friendly. Check the link I posted a while back with their github. They are planning to be used with existing legacy systems. Many coins are focusing on being public, HEAT is focusing on business and private usage (at least that's how it seems to me).

Interesting stuff! I had doubts when I used the exchange but it just seems to me that they are working on different priority issues. The exchange can stay meh for a while, they just wanted to test it.

BTW, if you wanna know the real reason I love HEAT you can look at the algo/forging.
286  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][ICO launched!] Embermine - Blockchain and Smart Contract Application on: June 10, 2017, 06:46:01 PM
Despite not making the minimum goal for our token sale, a number of individuals who have already participated or had missed the sale completely started asking if would launch the Ember tokens regardless of the result.

So we worked out a direct to user, private token sale which will allow users the ability to order the EMB tokens that they want and either get their original purchase at a great discount, or purchase new or additional tokens using one of many different cryptocurrencies.

The sale runs from 6:00am Saturday, June 10, 2017 through to 6:00pm Sunday, June 11, 2017 

We made two different pages. One is specifically for returning buyers who want to secure their original investment: https://embermine.com/embermine-private-token-sale-reserved/

And the other is for new or additional purchases: https://embermine.com/embermine-private-token-sale-new/

For new or additional purposes, we have added the ability to use many different currencies, just make sure to send the correct currency to the correct address provided and please double check against mistakes.

Please let us know if you have any questions, issues, or problems.

Sincerely,

The Embermine Team
www.embermine.com


Probably should send out an email, not everyone sees the thread.
287  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] HEAT: 3.0 crypto*multisig fiat*a2a hft*1000tps*DSA*PoS+PoP*e2ee chat* on: June 10, 2017, 05:02:33 PM
Here's the HEAT roadmap. Feeling click-baited yet today? Let's fix that below  Cheesy


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1959885.0
Wow looks like shit!
Stewie, for 12 million you are basically getting equity in a blockchain company (after conversion). This is beyond undervalued. To make things better, they already have ties with a 6billion mkt cap bank. Sure everything is not perfect yet; however, they have been working hard.

There are shit OTC blockchain stocks that are around this cap. At least this has a strong team.
288  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network on: June 10, 2017, 03:10:48 PM
Ohad HMC and all investors . You all need to invest time reading my words. I am going to repeat some and improve it. The reason you all need to read it are two:
1. I know each of the two developer better than anyone else who may know one of them better then me.
2. I am involved and truly care about the project but more about each of them and their personal success.

for the investors if you are concern in terms of scam you should know that both put their lives on the line for that project. Both could and can make much greater gains working on other projects yet they committed to this project. Ohad's choice was to raise funds from investors so he can commit all his time to the project (which he is) , while HMC made a choice of a purely personal commitment, thus have to make a living doing other things. (unless have a fortune form other project in the past)..

It is very very interesting to view Tauchain project in the light of Ethereum premise and (financial) success. I have done that right form the beginning . if you care to understand this better you need to see that latest interview with Vlad Zamfir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_Qpvx-GPM&feature=youtu.be (all 5 parts). Ethereum deliver community faith in cryptoeconomic trough a social verification process of having some big names and big companies join the party. Every single ICO project on Etherum need a celebrity name attached as advisory if not founder, a nice website, some marketing in the community through the social networks and investor flock to get their share.

Ethereum as an investment turned to be a goldmine however in terms of the tech it is a scam. it promised to do things it will never be able to even get close to do. however all the money pored into it may result in some new developments that some of them will benefit us all.

I believe that the chances tauchain will result in groundbreaking tech are very high and that The Agora token will gain much more value is great as well. To understand why and how I suggest you try to read beyond this point.  

Quote
The heart of that which we as a spices have to resolve.We are social creature living in large communities like ants and bees yet we each maintain a sense of complete and separate entity, an autonomous being. The main contradiction here is that if each and one of us is motivated to do only the best to humanity as a whole, but since each of us is a different entity we would all end up disagreeing and fighting each other to the end.

When we review this in terms of information theory the it makes a lot sense: The information that Alice have will always be greater than that of bob regarding her experiences and vice versa, thus the more individuals we interact with the greater that gap of information between each individual in the group to the rest of them becomes. "culture" as a collective set of rules and knowledge is one way to overcome that, separation of powers is the other way. If "culture" assert a code of behavior that is enforced by a consensus but not by any law, separation of powers is a law which made to disable the ability of one to rule all.

When Tauchain was first conceived it was built on the premise that the program set the rules by which rules are going to be accepted - The rule of rule making. yet when one go on that path of rules it will always hit the wall of consensus. In mathematics we name it axioms. We can never speak of pure mathematical consents without consent to the the axioms which give the meaning to the phrase expressed (same a any other language).

Tauchain was created with the notion of Godle incompleteness theorem and its implication on programming. The personal level that we see this mathematical and programming project turns in to, only emphasis the unresolved state as of yet, when HMC holding the "Separation of powers" as the founding grounds while Ohad is now experimenting with contextual consensus (which I referred to as "culture") as the foundation. However in fact each approach in order to work need the other to balance it out. Satoshi resolved that only to a second degree of logic yet HMC and Ohad both try to resolve it at the fundamental degree of infinity, that fractal structure of the rule of the rule of the rule ...ext of rule-making.

Satoshi's attempt to resolve that same paradox yield Bitcoin which is not a complete solution but a great and proven step forward
Satoshi's trick was to apply the "separation of powers" for the agreement reach as a consensus using incentive architecture to compensate for the luck of a "culture" as a motivation then use the state of consensus as the culture on which to built the next block. That "culture" is then enforced by all nodes who wish to take part in the "game" and the gains involved in that "game" The consensus thus represent the social unity (culture) while the transaction and its verification is done by a "separation of powers" method. This equilibrium of interests are reached at every block and allow the entire ecosystem to progress over to the next block. this entire scheme is sustainable thanks to the effort needed to undo the chain and then to compete with the longest chain. However as we are all witnessing these days Satoshi solution lack a major component

"Separation of powers" is an agreement all sides comply with, and so is a consensus, assuming that each individual is free to join or leave at any given moment by exercising free will, however.....no individual should have power over the other once enter the scheme. A fork means that all information and all states are at agreement up to the point of forking thus at the moment of forking each  individual can make a choice without losing anything. However this is not true since while consenting to the consensus some individuals (or groups with in) lost power gained by others.

The fundamental question this raise is far more inclusive than "governing" which it is now the common expression to describe the problem withing the bitcoin community. It is the question of identity of an individual participant in the game It is "identity" since it is an information issue and identity is the way information differ. a difference in the state of information each participant have is the fundamental quality that make one be other then the other one and not all be just parts of the same one.

In short the governing issue is not governing but rather information. in order to keep the "separation of powers", information have to stay at the hand of the individual entity. This means that each entity have to have some sort of unique information no other participant can appropriate yet that formation is crucial to the network as a whole. Identity means one unique none cloned information package (like a bitcoin coin)  which only that individual can reveal. But.... that a verifier can verified .

The problem that both Ohad and HMC need to resolve together is how to built that verifier. Satoshi's solution for verification is open Leger, but such ledger erase the individual as such and result in a 'governing" problem.   If they fork we will not get it either. if they cant work together it means that they cant built it together and if they cant built it together even if working separately it can not be built, not by any of them.

So lets look at the verifier problem now. We need to trust the verifier and that verifier thus can not be a third party that can make gains in the game, unless it is the game itself. The trick is the game. I am me only in that game. on each game I will be a new me. each fork will restart all gamers as new entities thus they all will lose. its a game that if you enter you gain and if you leave you lose but whatever you gain or lose dont change the sum for the others only for the total of the game.

Let me tokenize that, first as value of money, then we will be able to move on to see how we transform the token to information other then money.
lets assume every player get a token once enter the game and all other players get a fraction of a cloned token for each new player (equal to the new player added value). thus for each new player the system gains two  tokens one for the new player and one to share between old players. Now these tokens have a unique quality. they can never be spend as a whole. meaning that the program can identify each fragment as part of that one. now lets assume that the token given to the new player is not divisible. thus the only thing that a new player can do is sent his token and by that "delete his account" and at the moment his account is deleted so are all the fragments of the cloned token. this way each individual carry the real power of his original membership even if never accumulated any more tokens.

my apology for making this too short of an explanation (will expend on that soon) and jump now into exchanging the value token with information. My token is my identity in terms of information. all players shares the information but if use it together will loose it. thus are insenevize to avoid "knowing" all about who I am. I am still free to do as a wish but as a new player in a new game. However the players in this game have the incentive to keep me in the game since they lose their ability to participate without having my and each other's fragments of tokens as trade-able assets. That tokenized rule of information is all that matters. All other rules can be reach as a consensus of majority.

Appreciate this.
289  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][ICO launched!] Embermine - Blockchain and Smart Contract Application on: June 09, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
Cool, so we should expect an email.
290  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ADL] Adel | Startup Incubator for Blockchain Innovation on: June 09, 2017, 09:50:29 PM
The whole vibe reminds me of janus. Perhaps this team is even more professional. Btc well spent, this is a long-term hold.
291  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network on: June 09, 2017, 04:41:20 PM
Price is reflecting the thread vibe Sad

Github updated 1 year ago
Team conflict
No timeline
Rising btc value
Blind faith in dev



This is a gamble at this point :/
292  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [XEL] :: Elastic - The Decentralized Supercomputer :: on: June 09, 2017, 05:22:03 AM
EK and the elastic team are the hero's we need.  Grin <3
293  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Discussion (Altcoins) / Re: The DEX (Decentralized Exchange) Thread on: June 09, 2017, 03:53:51 AM
HEAT is shit. They only trade HEAT/BTC/GNT and their trading platform sucks. http://coinmarketcap.com/exchanges/heat-wallet/
I agree, it is shit right now. But it has potential.
https://github.com/Heat-Ledger-Ltd/heat-dev-kit/blob/master/README.md
294  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Janus [JNS] Blockchain secured global business - NXT | Ethereum Classic on: June 08, 2017, 11:09:21 PM



@CoinMKTCap has just recently added their Oracle that can foresee the $JNS price.



- The Janusproject Team
I noticed that. I remember thinking, hmm this is actually possible. Everyone is holding lol
295  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Discussion (Altcoins) / Re: The DEX (Decentralized Exchange) Thread on: June 08, 2017, 08:05:43 PM
Have you reviewed HEAT ledger?
296  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network on: June 08, 2017, 02:19:48 AM
I read now several times about 'Autonomic' and understood this is some sort of other project or fork. But a simple search brings always up Tau. Does this other project exist?

Autonomic is (literally) all of the developers who worked on "original tau" except Ohad.

We started a new project "Autonomous Nomic Overlay Network" which intends to carry out the "original tau" plan.

The project exists primarily in #AutoNomic on freenode.
Wow, that's scary. I didn't know devs left... especially an exceptional dev such as yourself.
297  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] HEAT: 3.0 crypto*multisig fiat*a2a hft*1000tps*DSA*PoS+PoP*e2ee chat* on: June 07, 2017, 06:08:43 AM
Seriously amazing stuff:
https://github.com/Heat-Ledger-Ltd/heat-dev-kit/blob/master/README.md

HEAT is going to be AMAZING!
I love that you guys are keeping the developers, users, and institutions in mind when developing this coin.
This is truly something special
298  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][KMD][dPoW] Komodo - Zcash Zero Knowledge Privacy Secured by Bitcoin on: June 07, 2017, 05:24:52 AM
Here are some technical notes on native DEX to give an idea of what needs to be tested:

At first we need to do more clearbox testing as opposed to blackbox testing. by understanding what is supposed to happen internally, it will be easier to make sure it actually is and when that is solid.
there are two totally different (complicated) parts to the native DEX. Ordermatching and the atomic swap itself
In a decentralized exchange, just knowing what the orderbook is becomes complex. Here we have LP nodes (acting as servers to a degree) and client nodes. The latter need the absolute latest orderbook, but not that often, just when they want to do a trade, but of course they want it quickly
A requirement for the LP node is that anybody is able to run one, ie. permissionless. To achieve this, I made a custom p2p network. yes, yet another one, but I wanted the absolute fastest networking so decided to make my own. That means there could (are) bugs in the fundamental networking code as I read/write directly to the network ports. I combined the p2p and rpc aspects and the peers actually use the same requests as the browser makes for http://5.9.253.195:7779/api/stats/orderbook?base=REVS&rel=KMD and the equivalent. This allowed me to use the same code for the p2p networking and the rpc handling. native DEX p2p network has custom messages to propagate new peers quickly and available utxos reasonably quickly
At any given time, most of the LP nodes will have a recent set of available utxo and a very current set of peers. So, the client connects to any of the seed nodes, gets a list of peers and iterates getpeers on them to get a complete map of all the LP nodes. It is quite possible the networking can flood itself, but I did put guards against that in
the native DEX is based on utxo (pairs). the LP node needs the utxo to trade and a 13% bigger utxo to use as a deposit. The client node needs a utxo to trade and a 1/777th size one for the dexfee. A node scans its smartaddress (derived from passphrase) for pairs of utxo using a simple bestfit algorithm and creates utxopairs that can be seen locally using the inventory command
Now I am concerned that at some scale, the current design will bog down, however I have structured things to be pretty efficient. Each LP node creates a pub/sub nanomsg socket along with a push/pull pipeline socket. The former is used for sending out data (and commands) the latter for receiving requests. Both channels are fed through the RPC command processor, so typically a matched pair of "method" fields are used similar to "ping" -> "pong" response
Since the nanomsg pub/sub was designed to broadcast to a very large number of nodes, it should be able to handle thousands of client nodes. However, to maximize data propagation, all the clients are connected to all the LP nodes. with 10 LP nodes now, this is not an issue, but it could become one if we end up with hundreds (or thousands) of LP nodes
any node can request from an LP node about peers and utxos and prices, whenever any node does, the LP node publishes the answer and since all clients (and LP nodes) are subsribers to all LP nodes, the original requestor along with everybody else will get the data. This makes it so that a lot of times all the required data is available client side automatically
To receive requests, all nodes connect to a one stage pipeline with a single provider, a specific LP node. this serializes the request stream from all other nodes into a specific LP node. Most requests are about peers, utxo and prices, but there are a few special ones that start an atomic swap
Since we are swapping specific utxo, it can only be swapped with a single party. This means we need to create an exclusive lock on that utxo for sale. Of course it needs to be time limited to prevent the orderbook from being locked. The "price" command and "request" command are nearly identical, the latter just provides a 60 second lock for the requesting party to "connect". Since the information is broadcast publicly, it is possible for some other node to jump in and establish the connection. However, in some sense the native DEX is a free for all, first come first served, so this is in the spirit of the DEX operation
the "connect" command makes sure a utxo was properly reserved and if it was it creates a nanomsg NN_PAIR socket, which has the nice attribute of being limited to two connections, one immediately being taken by the LP node. This assures exclusivity of the connecting client node during the atomic protocol and further that only one party at a time is trading any specific utxo. At least on the LP node side. It is possible for an evil client to try to trade the same utxo to multiple LP nodes, but the blockchain will prevent such double spends
In my tests, I am seeing the above process of fetching the utxos, getting prices, requesting and connecting happens essentially instantly
Once the atomic swap protocol starts, I set it up like railroad tracks, basically it can only go along a single path, or derail. This dramatically simplifies all the possible errors that can happen during the atomic swap.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1364951
 discusses the protocol details for the atomic swap itself. It is quite difficult to understand, so I will try to simplify
bitcointalk.org
Atomic swaps using cut and choose
Atomic swaps using cut and choose
In order to prevent spamming, the client node must pay a dexfee (1/777th tradesize) to assure the LP node that he is serious. Putting an actual financial cost has the advantage in that it removes spammers at the first step and also it creates a revenue stream for our patient investors. There is an implicit assumption that LP nodes are more reliable than client nodes. Even before the dexfee is sent, the two nodes use the cut and choose protocol to perform a key exchange and create a trade specific set of addresses that will be used. Once this is done, then the dexfee is sent. Once the fee is verified to have been sent, the atomic swap starts for real. By convention the two parties trading are Alice (client) and Bob. Bob has the burden of providing a deposit in the protocol. To compensate, Bob has no dexfee at all, just the coins txfee.
Bob first broadcasts a deposit. Alice waits for this to be confirmed. By waiting for the coin confirmation, the nature of the protocol avoids malleability issues, other than the generally annoying part about malleability where the txid you expected is not what ends up in the blockchain. Alice then sends a 2of2 multisig to Bob, Bob can verify it is to the right address that he will be able to spend, but he cant spend it yet
Bob then sends his payment to Alice, who is able to spend it immediately and by doing so has to divulge the information Bob needs to spend the 2of2 multisig.
As soon as the three initial transactions are sent to the blockchain(s): bobdeposit, alicepayment, bobpayment, the trade is locked, both parties know they will get at least what they agreed upon, in cases where one side doesnt do what they are supposed to, the other party can get even more
for each of the three payments, there are two outcomes: bob spends it or alice spends it. The mainstream sequence is:
1. bobdeposit 2. alicepayment 3. bobpayment 4. alicespend 5. bobspend 6. bobrefund
however at any point, the sequence can stop due to disconnection or intentionally. You will see that regardless of what point it stops at, the result is acceptable:
1. alice will eventually claim the deposit when it times out in some hours
2. bob can refund his own deposit and in doing so allows alice to reclaim her payment. if enough time elapses, alice can spend the bobdeposit and give bob the information to spend alicepayment
3. after timeouts, bob can reclaim his deposit and payment
4. alice is happy at this point and can collect even more via spending bobdeposit
5. there is no reason for bob to leave the transactions for alice to reclaim
The above is a very high level description and the reality has a lot of subtle details to make it all work. Happy hunting for bugs
I love u
299  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][ICO launched!] Embermine - Blockchain and Smart Contract Application on: June 06, 2017, 07:20:10 PM
Dev, unfortunately ICO's goal was not achieved! What will become of the rewards campaign? Do I still have to send my information by email? What should be done? And will the project have the continuity previously discussed?

Due to the intentional design of our Escrow for the token sale, we must complete all of the returns to all of the sales since we did not hit the sales minimum. Because we intend upon launching the token anyway to honor all of our token obligations to all of the Employee, Marketing, and Code Bounty Pools, we have received notice from the vast majority of participants to get remain part of the token release. Since we have to close the original sale to process the refunds per the Escrow service, we will be holding a one day token sale "buy-in" for those participants who wish to remain part of the Embermine token distribution.

All purchase refunds will be happening on Monday automatically to the Bitcoin addresses provided by each buyer during the crowdsale. As we are processing the refunds, we will also be notifying everyone of the exact particulars regarding the sale, the timing, cost, and procedures to follow.

Thank you to everyone for their support. Here are the preliminary details regarding the sale:

Essentially, we are selling the tokens now at .0000004 BTC each, or 100X original value.
The original minimum purchase was .005 BTC which got the buyer 125 Embers. That same user now gets 12,500 Embers
This looks to be the token goals:

Target number of Embers to be produced: 58,823,530
Distributed to Token Sale buyers: 50,000,000
Total Distributed Outside Of Token Sale: 8,823,530
Distributed to Employee Pool: 3,529,413
Distributed to Marketing Pool: 2,941,176
Distributed to Code Bounty Pool: 2,352,941
Cost per Ember: .0000004 BTC each

All existing buyers will be guaranteed at least their initial commitment. We will guarantee that at least 50,000,000 tokens will be funded through this process, to ensure that all Employee, Marketing Bounty, and Code Bounty pools are properly vested as intended. This is not intended to be a replacement of the original token sale. Rather, this is the method of release we are doing in order to get our initial token created as we begin development and allowing those who want to see this project succeed to still be involved.

Because of the format the sale will take, this will be an invite-only event where someone must receive the link from Embermine or a current participant in the token sale. Each participant will receive a special link that they use in order to participate. There, they can claim their original tokens or participate at some other level. Once someone participates, they will receive an email confirmation of their order and a referral link that they can send out to another who may wish to participate. This process is to ensure that those who originally participated will still have the earliest opportunity to participate in the sale.

NOTE: These are just the preliminaries. We are working the details out with our Token Administrators and our Escrow partners and will let everyone know as soon as the details are all finalized. Some of these elements will change, but we are hoping to run the special token sale on June 6th.

Thank you to everyone for their support!  
Not really understanding, does this mean that people that want to stay on board have to pay 100x the price of ico?
300  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] SuperNET NXT asset 12071612744977229797, SUPERNET KMD assetchain in summer on: June 03, 2017, 08:44:28 PM
Is it just me or did the price just spike to $66.7M in market cap and then drop straight back down to $14M? Anyone know why?
Lack of liquidity. Much like the above guy, people don't know how to use NXT exchange. Those that do bought until 50 per cuz nav (coins held by super) is around there.
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