Fammi capire, con bitcoin.de tu scegli una proposta di acquisto e fai il BB direttamente al venditore? Come avviene la fase di escrow? Chi mi garantisce che pagherai il dovuto entro una certa data e non ne approfitti ad esempio delle variazioni di prezzo?
Esatto. Io non passo per l'exchange e quindi la banca non mi può bloccare il bonifico. È una partita a tre: io, l'exchange e la controparte. L'escrow è bitcoin.de. All'escrow arrivano i bitcoin dalla controparte che mette in vendita. Io li compro, ho un'ora di tempo per fare il bonifico, quando il mio bonifico arriva alla controparte questa avvisa bitcoin.de che mi manda i bitcoin. Entrambi diamo un feedback come con ebay. Ci sono delle regole che si possono settare come accettare solo persone da una certa nazione, solo con un certo numero di feedback, solo utenti completamente identificati oppure identificato solo tramite il proprio conto corrente. Bitcoin,de è un servizio di banking di una banca tedesca e ha le autorizzazioni statali. Come con ebay se uno non vuole rischiare può vendere o comprare solo da persone con alto numero di feedback, ovviamente spunta prezzi peggiori. che differenza c'e' rispetto a localbitcoins ? io di solito uso quello, e mi sembra che funzioni allo stesso modo... |
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I'm sure they do......sure.
Spread the word about this problem, and remember the golden rule: DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK |
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Non possono configurarsi gli estremi per qualcosa di illegale, laddove una banca decida di bloccare arbitrariamente un deposito verso questo o quell'exchange?
Ipotesi: Mi bloccano un deposito di 10.000$ a Agosto 2013 verso Bitstamp, nel frattempo Bitcoin fa 20x, e io a Gennaio 2014 accuso un "guadagno mancato" di 190.000$.
La banca non può, con la sua condotta ingiustificata (qualora non ci sia una legge, una direttiva di blacklisting regolare, qualcosa), essere portata in tribunale per avermi causato questo danno?
Credo che le banche possano fare un po' quel che vogliono, dal momento che legalmente, nel momento che tu apri un conto in banca, PERDI IL POSSESSO DEL TUO DENARO, CHE DIVENTA DELLA BANCA in cambio diventi proprietario di un titolo di credito che appunto e' il conto... tra parentesi questo e' anche il principio che permette alle banche LEGALMENTE di fare riserva frazionaria... stanno usando denaro che e' diventato il loro (e tu hai firmato chili di carte in decupla copia che lo attesta) |
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 This chart shows the growth of the addresses and transactions. As we see, the growth of the addresses is quite stable, the transaction is a bit more sluggish, but has always remained around 30% throughout 2014. Remember that the y-axis scale is logarithmic !  In this chart I overlay addresses and transactions with prices and some quadratic regressions quadratic regression of 2014 has strong negative slope .... against the trend to all other phenomena that are growing significantly |
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read my signature  |
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quindi secondo te che bisognà fare ?
essere coscienti che bitcoin e' una vera rivoluzione. Bitcoin mette in mano alla gente il potere di non dover sottostare alle banche, e a tutto quel che ne deriva (niente di importante, solo il sistema della "democrazia" occidentale) Per ora la gente ci giocherella, fanno trading, lo tengono sugli exchange... In pratica, stanno in ogni modo cercando di replicare (anche a fatica, a volte) le meccaniche note del sistema esistente. Ti chiedi cosa bisogna farci ? Usarlo ! |
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purtropo le banche iniziano a capire che il bitcoin potrebbe iniziare a essere un problema per loro .. quindi di conseguenza vietano le transazioni , sempre più banche lo fanno .. senza il cambio btc/usd euro o qualsiasi valuta ... il bitcoin muore .. che senso ha avere i bitcoin se non posso cambiarli in euro , o devo farmi 500km per comprare una cosa perchè vicino a me nessuno gli accetta ? sperò la situazione migliorerà perchè di questo passo il bitcoin avrà un futuro di m....... magari mi sbaglio ma io la vedo così ...
Quella che descrivi e' una strategia. Quasi nessuno nel mondo occidentale si muove per strategie. Quasi tutti si muovono seguendo due semplici principi a) dire cose "politically correct" b) fare il piu' possibile lucro, poi saranno cazzi di qualcun altro. quindi tranquillo, non saranno le banche ad ammazzare bitcoin. E' molto piu' facile che venga ammazzato dalla stupidita' della gente. |
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the answer is almost no banks can liquidate more than 2 or 3% of their deposit! In eurozone they actually have 1% of reserve requirement (was 2% before 2012), in USA some small banks can have 0% of reserve ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_requirementNote that in China, reserve requirement is 19%. It has just been reduced from 20%. Everywhere in the world, legal requirements are shrinking. People must be aware. They have the power for not replay this shit on bitcoin ecosystem... simply DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK
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People who are in just for the money... prepare for another year of falling prices. And people asking the same questions everyday and the same answers, people saying the same thing over and over, on this subforum. be prepared.
I think this is not true if all learn this simple rule: DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=945881.0 |
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The concept you explained is similar like what we see in banks. If every person who holds an account decides to make quick withdrawal simultaneously at the same time how many banks can actually liquidate the assets that they hold to pay off that amount?
the answer is almost no banks can liquidate more than 2 or 3% of their deposit! In eurozone they actually have 1% of reserve requirement (was 2% before 2012), in USA some small banks can have 0% of reserve ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_requirement |
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What if you are a day trader and need to keep your coins on the exchange to benefit from market movements?
how I wrote in Q&A : "Of course there are traders out there who will keep their BTC on the exchanges a little longer but for the average Joe there’s no need to use an Exchange as a wallet." the "DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK" mantra is for average Joe, traders are forced to keep their BTC on exchange wallet. actually I dont know a solution for traders, only keep they BTC the shortest time they can (or change hobbies ) |
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I am not that deep into blockchain analysis as you are, but some of the exchanges adresses are known. I think it could be quite easy to estimate wideley they fluctuate in terms of coins. I assume they have a stock which is barely moving and even if they care, they could use at least half of this to do FRB. Do you have further information?
do you know where i can get an updated database of exchanges addresses ? |
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very insightful post - thank you
I assume we all know how fishy most of the exchanges are working but I never thought directly about that possibility.
Thank. Spread the word about this problem, and remember the golden rule: DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK
your advice, I guess at this point of time is the only thing we can do. do you have any possbilities to estimate at which rate they are probably doing this.
I am not that deep into blockchain analysis as you are, but some of the exchanges adresses are known. I think it could be quite easy to estimate wideley they fluctuate in terms of coins. I assume they have a stock which is barely moving and even if they care, they could use at least half of this to do FRB. Do you have further information?
I am making some work about this.
Edit: this obviously holds true for every off-chain transaction type, whether it be changetip, satoshi dice or every other possibility doesn't it?
Sure. every off-chain transaction expose to this problem. But BTC exchanges have on their wallets a lot of BTC.... |
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Yes, but that's very different from what the banks are doing.
It's certainly a possibility that an exchange uses, say 50%, of the BTC it has, to invest around at its own risk, doing things like selling those BTC and invest the cash into stocks, but that's no money creation. It's more like if I lend you my car to do your shopping, you use it to go racing.
technically speaking, the BTC exchange don't have the rule of central bank (real money creation, namely BTC mining), but the rule of commercial bank. But they can operate EXACTLY as a commercial bank (commercial bank are 99% of banks) from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking: Money creation process Main article: Money creation There are two types of money in a fractional-reserve banking system operating with a central bank:[15][16][17] Central bank money: money created or adopted by the central bank regardless of its form – precious metals, commodity certificates, banknotes, coins, electronic money loaned to commercial banks, or anything else the central bank chooses as its form of money Commercial bank money: demand deposits in the commercial banking system; sometimes referred to as "chequebook money" When a deposit of central bank money is made at a commercial bank, the central bank money is removed from circulation and added to the commercial banks' reserves (it is no longer counted as part of M1 money supply). Simultaneously, an equal amount of new commercial bank money is created in the form of bank deposits. When a loan is made by the commercial bank (which keeps only a fraction of the central bank money as reserves), using the central bank money from the commercial bank's reserves, the m1 money supply expands by the size of the loan.[2] This process is called "deposit multiplication". |
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A very useful post indeed!
Thank. Spread the word about this problem, and remember the golden rule: DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK |
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There's a huge difference with the banking sector and BTC exchange companies and I'm not sure you've seen it.
Today's banks actually have the power to create money. They keep a 2% fractional reserve as the law requires in the US, and then they multiply from that, lending money which they do not have and do not even actually exist, but you can't do that with BTC. The amount of BTC deposited at an exchange is fixed, and cannot be multiplied. BTC cannot be created except by miners, and double spend is not allowed.
I'm not saying it's safe to keep your BTC at an exchange, but it is actually much less risky than depositing cash at a bank.
In the first post I explain in detail how they can do it. |
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