Nobody's really talking about free will.

We already know that we are mechanisms. So is the Universe. And hurricanes. And drainage networks. And Chinese populations. And economies. And computer programs like SHRDLU. And internal combustion engines. And cameras.

Which of those have qualia? Which don't? As soon as you start to say why one or more have qualia, and others don't, then you're starting to address the Hard Problem.

I ignored it for certain reasons. See below.


You just described a mechanism. The reason I mostly ignore what you say is because mechanisms are part of the Easy Problem. Granted, the Easy Problem is very difficult and as of yet unsolved, but it's not the Hard Problem.

The two are separate.

That would be a phenomenal zombie, as described by Chalmers.


That is up for debate and part of the Hard Problem.


That might be akin to having a base level of qualia, but not having a symbolic level of qualia.


Do they? Or is one just an amplification of another through a feedback loop with extra qualia attached each loop around.


I've never had trouble pinning down what qualia is. I experience it every waking moment.

Is that because you do indeed believe in proto-consciousness? If yes, then Ok. If no, explain.

Not really.


When a rock falls and hits the ground, does it have the sensation of experiencing the impact? If it does, then it's having the sensation of experience. If it does not, then it is not having the sensation of experience.

Let me make it simple for you. When you're dead, will you have the sensation of experiencing me smacking you in the face for your obtuseness, as opposed to you having the sensation of experiencing me smacking you in the face while you're alive?

Most people seriously studying it don't seem to have that problem.

It's the sensation of experiencing something. Pretty damn simple.

Robert Harris deserves a second mention. He's another author who meticulously researches the time period his stories take place in. The above four are historical thrillers. Topics include code breaking the Enigma machines using computers known as bombes, Roman engineers and landlords, the Third Reich, and Stalin.

Schank and Riesbeck also produced a program called TALE-SPIN.

Read pages 199 - 201: http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmps148/Winter10/readings/MeehanTaleSpin.pdf

I found this section to be particularly impressive:

Person: HAD YOU TOUCHED ANY PYRAMID BEFORE YOU PUT THE GREEN ONE ON THE LITTLE CUBE?
Computer: YES, THE GREEN ONE.
Person: WHEN DID YOU PICK IT UP?
Computer: WHILE I WAS STACKING UP THE RED CUBE, A LARGE RED BLOCK AND A LARGE GREEN CUBE.
Person: WHY?
Computer: TO GET RID OF IT.
Person: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
Computer: TO CLEAN OFF THE RED CUBE.
Person: WHY DID YOU CLEAR OFF THAT CUBE?
Computer: TO PUT IT ON A LARGE GREEN CUBE.
Person: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
Computer: TO STACK UP THE RED CUBE , A LARGE RED BLOCK AND A LARGE GREEN CUBE.
Person: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
Computer: BECAUSE YOU ASKED ME TO.
Person: HOW DID YOU DO IT?
Computer: BY PUTTING A LARGE RED BLOCK ON THE TABLE ; THEN LETTING GO OF IT ; THEN PUTTING A LARGE GREEN CUBE ON IT ; THEN LETTING GO OF THAT CUBE ; THEN PUTTING THE RED CUBE ON THAT CUBE; THEN LETTING GO OF THAT CUBE.
Person: HOW MANY OBJECTS DID YOU TOUCH WHILE YOU WERE DOING IT?
Computer: FOUR OF THEM.
Person: WHAT DID THE RED CUBE SUPPORT BEFORE YOU STARTED TO CLEAN IT OFF?
Computer: THE GREEN PYRAMID.
Person: THERE WERE FIVE BLOCKS TO THE LEFT OF THE BOX THEN.
Computer: NO, ONLY FOUR OF THEM: THE RED CUBE, TWO LARGE GREEN CUBES AND A LARGE RED BLOCK.
Person: PUT THE BLUE PYRAMID ON THE BLOCK IN THE BOX.
Computer: OK. (does it)
Person: IS THERE ANYTHING WHICH IS BIGGER THAN EVERY PYRAMID BUT IS NOT AS WIDE AS THE THING THAT SUPPORTS IT?
Computer: YES, THE BLUE BLOCK.

http://hci.stanford.edu/winograd/shrdlu/

Read the dialog below all the way through, as it gets pretty amazing the further into it you get.

Taken from the link above, here is a dialog with SHRDLU:

    Person: PICK UP A BIG RED BLOCK.
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: GRASP THE PYRAMID.
    Computer: I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHICH PYRAMID YOU MEAN.
    Person: FIND A BLOCK WHICH IS TALLER THAN THE ONE YOU ARE HOLDING AND PUT IT INTO THE BOX.
    Computer: BY "IT", I ASSUME YOU MEAN THE BLOCK WHICH IS TALLER THAN THE ONE I AM HOLDING.
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: WHAT DOES THE BOX CONTAIN?
    Computer: THE BLUE PYRAMID AND THE BLUE BLOCK.
    Person: WHAT IS THE PYRAMID SUPPORTED BY?
    Computer: THE BOX.
    Person: HOW MANY BLOCKS ARE NOT IN THE BOX?
    Computer: FOUR OF THEM.
    Person: IS AT LEAST ONE OF THEM NARROWER THAN THE ONE WHICH I TOLD YOU TO PICK UP?
    Computer: YES, THE RED CUBE.
    Person: IS IT SUPPORTED?
    Computer: YES, BY THE TABLE.
    Person: CAN THE TABLE PICK UP BLOCKS?
    Computer: NO.
    Person: CAN A PYRAMID BE SUPPORTED BY A BLOCK?
    Computer: YES.
    Person: CAN A PYRAMID SUPPORT A PYRAMID?
    Computer: I DON'T KNOW.
    Person: STACK UP TWO PYRAMIDS.
    Computer: I CAN'T.
    Person: WILL YOU PLEASE STACK UP BOTH OF THE RED BLOCKS AND EITHER A GREEN CUBE OR A PYRAMID?
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: WHICH CUBE IS SITTING ON THE TABLE?
    Computer: THE LARGE GREEN ONE WHICH SUPPORTS THE RED PYRAMID.
    Person: IS THERE A LARGE BLOCK BEHIND A PYRAMID?
    Computer: YES, THREE OF THEM: A LARGE RED ONE, A LARGE GREEN CUBE, AND THE BLUE ONE.
    Person: PUT A SMALL ONE ONTO THE GREEN CUBE WHICH SUPPORTS A PYRAMID.
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: PUT THE LITTLEST PYRAMID ON TOP OF IT.
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: DOES THE SHORTEST THING THE TALLEST PYRAMID'S SUPPORT SUPPORTS SUPPORT ANYTHING GREEN?
    Computer: YES, THE GREEN PYRAMID.
    Person: WHAT COLOR IS IT?
    Computer: BY "IT", I ASSUME YOU MEAN THE SHORTEST THING THE TALLEST PYRAMID'S SUPPORT SUPPORTS.
    Computer: RED
    Person: HOW MANY THINGS ARE ON TOP OF GREEN CUBES?
    Computer: I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "ON TOP OF "IN THE PHRASE "ON TOP OF GREEN CUBES " .
     DO YOU MEAN:

        1 - DIRECTLY ON THE SURFACE
        2 - ANWHERE ON TOP OF ?

    Person: 2
    Computer: THREE OF THEM.
    Person: HAD YOU TOUCHED ANY PYRAMID BEFORE YOU PUT THE GREEN ONE ON THE LITTLE CUBE?
    Computer: YES, THE GREEN ONE.
    Person: WHEN DID YOU PICK IT UP?
    Computer: WHILE I WAS STACKING UP THE RED CUBE, A LARGE RED BLOCK AND A LARGE GREEN CUBE.
    Person: WHY?
    Computer: TO GET RID OF IT.
    Person: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
    Computer: TO CLEAN OFF THE RED CUBE.
    Person: WHY DID YOU CLEAR OFF THAT CUBE?
    Computer: TO PUT IT ON A LARGE GREEN CUBE.
    Person: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
    Computer: TO STACK UP THE RED CUBE , A LARGE RED BLOCK AND A LARGE GREEN CUBE.
    Person: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
    Computer: BECAUSE YOU ASKED ME TO.
    Person: HOW DID YOU DO IT?
    Computer: BY PUTTING A LARGE RED BLOCK ON THE TABLE ; THEN LETTING GO OF IT ; THEN PUTTING A LARGE GREEN CUBE ON IT ; THEN LETTING GO OF THAT CUBE ; THEN PUTTING THE RED CUBE ON THAT CUBE; THEN LETTING GO OF THAT CUBE.
    Person: HOW MANY OBJECTS DID YOU TOUCH WHILE YOU WERE DOING IT?
    Computer: FOUR OF THEM.
    Person: WHAT DID THE RED CUBE SUPPORT BEFORE YOU STARTED TO CLEAN IT OFF?
    Computer: THE GREEN PYRAMID.
    Person: THERE WERE FIVE BLOCKS TO THE LEFT OF THE BOX THEN.
    Computer: NO, ONLY FOUR OF THEM: THE RED CUBE, TWO LARGE GREEN CUBES AND A LARGE RED BLOCK.
    Person: PUT THE BLUE PYRAMID ON THE BLOCK IN THE BOX.
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: IS THERE ANYTHING WHICH IS BIGGER THAN EVERY PYRAMID BUT IS NOT AS WIDE AS THE THING THAT SUPPORTS IT?
    Computer: YES, THE BLUE BLOCK.
    Person: DOES A STEEPLE
    Computer interrupting: SORRY, I DON'T KNOW THE WORD "STEEPLE".
    Person: A "STEEPLE" IS A STACK WHICH CONTAINS TWO GREEN CUBES AND A PYRAMID.
    Computer: I UNDERSTAND.
    Person: ARE THERE ANY STEEPLES NOW?
    Computer: NO.
    Person: BUILD ONE.
    Computer: OK. (does it)
    Person: CALL THE BIGGEST BLOCK "SUPERBLOCK".
    Computer: OK.
    Person: HAVE YOU PICKED SUPERBLOCK UP SINCE WE BEGAN?
    Computer: YES.
    Person: WHY DID YOU DROP IT?
    Computer: BY "IT", I ASSUME YOU MEAN THE SUPERBLOCK.
     I CAN'T EXPLAIN A NON-EXISTENT EVENT.
    Person: IS THERE ANYTHING TO THE RIGHT OF THE RED PYRAMID?
    Computer: YES, FOUR THINGS: THE BOX , THE RED CUBE, THE BLUE PYRAMID AND THE BLOCK NAMED SUPERBLOCK
    Person: THANK YOU.
    Computer: YOU'RE WELCOME!

Ok, I found the AI programs Schank, Riesbeck, Kolodner, etc. created. Roughly, in order of creation:

SAM
PAM
CYRUS - this is the one that impressed me the most.
IPP
JUDGE
CHEF
SWALE

Edit: Okay, after some googling, I found a good summary of what CYRUS could do. CYRUS would be programmed to have some of the knowledge that an ambassador would have based on reading some articles about political affairs, and then after it was asked questions about what it read, it would answer the questions. The program was tuned, but not in the way you think. It was dumb in a general sense, but the methods it employed were pretty amazing. Read the following synopsis of what CYRUS could do under the heading 'CYRUS' in the link below. In this case, questions are asked about the wife of an Israeli prime minister. I remember reading in detail years ago how CYRUS worked, and it was just fascinating.

Here's the link: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZK_FHFq3Vk0C&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=cyrus+roger+schank+%22dynamic+memory%22&source=bl&ots=IeJfIJhrFx&sig=yiBm3lIe5HHCPkS5LfK_vsVbO5M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ih5oT6OhG8-JsALXirGdCQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cyrus%20roger%20schank%20%22dynamic%20memory%22&f=false

Of course, I always found the stuff that came out of Roger Schank and Chris Riesbeck's Yale AI lab twenty and thirty years ago to be the most interesting stuff. Aside from SWALE, I wish I could remember the names of the programs. One of the most amazing ones was one that dealt with articles on political events.

Googling...

Programs which actually say stuff with an underlying meaning are more interesting, even if their domain is limited.

A conversation with SHRDLU, circa 1973: http://hci.stanford.edu/winograd/shrdlu/

So are we settled then and in agreement that qualia is not any of the following:

- The intake of sensory data by the body's sensory organs
- The filtering and translation of that data from one neuronal pattern to another
- The presence of that data in some pattern of neuronal pattern of activity in a brain
- The continued firing of neurons which change neuronal patterns from one pattern to another
- The resulting pattern of neuronal activity in a brain which causes one to lift a finger and do something

You do know that those are the type of books that can be found at the 'buck a bag' sales at the Friends of the Library bookstores? Fill a bag with as many books as you can and pay a buck.

Agreed.

Jack Vance: Lord of Language, Emperor of Dreams.

Yes. And it's not just us saying it. Dan Simmons (on my list) loves him. So does George R. R. Martin (author of A Game of Thrones). There are books on Jack Vance which simply discuss his use of words.

Ok - that's the thing. To a fourteen year old, it reads like classic adventure. To an experienced adult reader, it reads like literature, with lots of ironies and satire to indulge oneself in. You definitely need to reread it. The great thing is that it's enjoyable at both levels.


Read Demon Princes. But I'd suggest giving Planet of Adventure a reread first, with the intent on studying his use of language, and the way his characters speak, and the overall ambiance he creates.

Did you like Planet of Adventure?

If you did not, read it again. If you enjoyed it, read it again. The first time you read it, you may just be focusing on the story, and missing the underlying ambiance which is so pervasive in his work. The book is just amazing. For example: the flight in the stolen Dirdir aircar across the steppes, the voyage across the ocean in the sailing vessel, Aila Woudiver's shenanigans, and so on.

Vance isn't just adventure. His worlds are filled with charletans, scoundrels, knaves, cutthroats, pickpockets, blackmailers, scam artists, liars, thieves, popinjays (yes, popinjays), bufoons, braggarts, dandies, unctuous and uppity store clerks, snobs, haughty women, and so on.

And the best part, no matter the station or education of the above, they are quite eloquent and articulate while engaging in their dastardly shenanigans.

And definitely read Demon Princes. You're in for a treat.