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2901  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: cashing out help on: June 01, 2011, 06:30:20 AM
So i just cashed out my first bitcoin to my address but i have not received it yet. How long does it take till you receive your coins?
It's possible your client is still downloading blocks. If its status bar says "X blocks" where X < 127913 then that's it. It can take a few hours or a day to finish, after which you'll be able to see transactions instantly. How many connections do you have?
2902  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Continuum Mining Pool: No fees; Best PPS rates; Client uptime monitoring on: June 01, 2011, 06:16:45 AM
Quote
I don't know if that's the problem, but I noticed that when I copy-paste my address I often get a stray space which causes it to be unrecognized.

Note to martok - trim spaces from the input.
Indeed, will do.
I noticed now that my comment may have been a little ambiguous - to clarify, I was referring to getting statistics from continuumpool.com, not to the miner flags.

Tried an escaped ; as the separator, also tried a different address, still the same output from the pool side monitors..

Any other ideas? I was under the impression that if it wasn't registering the correct address, it wouldn't accept my hashes?
Did you try it without pps? This should help narrow down the problem.
2903  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Continuum Mining Pool: No fees; Best PPS rates; Client uptime monitoring on: June 01, 2011, 04:36:38 AM
For those wanting PPS payment, it is now live. Simply use yourpaymentaddress;pps or yourpaymentaddress0pps as the username. PPS miners will not affect regular miners and PPS carries a 5% expected fee. Regular mining is of course still at no fee. However, PPS was requested so there it is.

edit: PPS payout rate:
http://www.continuumpool.com/ppsrate.php
or preferably through the ppsrate RPC call.

edit: You can now pass a boolean pps (null by default) argument to hashrate.
pps => null = overall hashrate
pps => false regular miners only
pps => true only pps miners
I hope you have carefully evaluated the risks of PPS due to sabotage as well as normal variance. Tycho takes 10% for a reason.

Also, does "overall hash rate" include PPS miners? It would be more useful to know the hashrate of the score-based so we can know its variance.

However on the continuumpool page I am getting 0 for my hash rate and ?> for confirmed payouts at 12DbPbfp2twBTfjSBW9QhVQ5PrGb2puisV

Any idea what's going on here?
I don't know if that's the problem, but I noticed that when I copy-paste my address I often get a stray space which causes it to be unrecognized.

Note to martok - trim spaces from the input.
2904  Economy / Economics / Re: Future of Bitcoin. Some questions. on: May 31, 2011, 06:21:05 PM
First - amount of bitcoins, including less-than-one bitcoin parts (21 millions * 10^8 = 2,1 * 10^14) is not enough for all of the world.
(at now its about $5*10^13, including cents it's about 5*10^15 pieces).
So for future, if bitcoin will become the world's primary money, we will need more parts of those.
It is possible to make smaller parts of bitcoins?

Second - what if some governments will try to stop this idea? I already read about crypto-strength, but how is regulating "difficulty" of bitcoin mining done? Is it regulated by some algorithm, or by a switcher in some office?
And, to make the question somewhat wider - will bitcoin work, if the developer's office is successfully bombed tomorrow? Smiley

If these questions will be solved, I think Bitcoin is best idea for keeping my money.

P.S. Sorry for my English. If i made some mistakes, will be glad to hear where i did it.
1. Yes, with a fairly simple modification of the protocol we can allow bitcoins to be divided to smaller parts.
2. Governments might, if they so choose, prevent people from openly using Bitcoin, but they can't prevent it from being used at all.
Difficulty is regulated automatically by the network via an algorithm.
Bitcoin is an open source project. It doesn't have a developer, it has several developers all over the world, and anyone can become a developer if they so wish. So Bitcoin will survive a manhunt against all current developers.

Look at my quotation of your post, I've corrected most of the English mistakes.
2905  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: some beginner questions i could not find answers to on: May 31, 2011, 02:03:21 PM
As mentioned I do not pay the power supply, its in a data center and currently its running at 4100khash/s that makes ~ 30 $ / Month right? BTW it are 8 cores. Can (and if how) this become even more if i do not mine solo? Sorry for all that questions that are surly answered in the wiki which is down :/ And thanks for your help so far! Nice community here
I calculated $2.5 / month for 4 MH/s. And again, that's just an average, it's not a steady payout. When mining solo (eg with the client) you only get anything when you find a block which is completely random. Due to difficulty increase, it is almost certain you will never find a block.
2906  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: some beginner questions i could not find answers to on: May 31, 2011, 11:50:57 AM
Both won't start on Windows 2008 Server Standard Edition so i might have to use the standard client.

How long does it take till the first coin is generated? I run with 7 Connections and it shows 110k blocks whatever this means, the wiki is down for some reason :/
6 years. And no, I'm not kidding, with your CPU (assuming one server) I don't think you'll make more than 10 MH/s, which at current difficulty takes on average 6 years to find a block of 50 bitcoins. And of course by the time 6 years pass difficulty will increase, so you will probably never see even a bitpenny from the client.

With a CPU miner connected to a pool, rewards would still be measly but they will be spread out, meaning you will at least make some fraction of a bitcoin.
2907  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: some beginner questions i could not find answers to on: May 31, 2011, 09:39:42 AM
You don't have permission to access /wiki/Poclbm on this server.

And google just refers me to threads where people want to do CPU mining, i could not find a client specialized for that. I'm running the Servers on a Gbit Port in a Datacenter so there is no router to forward.
Yeah, the wiki is down.

This is Kiv's GUI version of poclbm.

This seems to be a miner good for CPU.
2908  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Does pool hopping really work? on: May 31, 2011, 09:35:01 AM
I also request people to review my constant-time proposal, since I believe it would be easier to implement/understand than exponential scores (linked lists instead of logarithm math).
I think this indeed works. Your payout for a submitted share only depends on the future and not the past, so you can't hop. And it has a significant variance advantage over the geometric method. However:
1. You need to base the window on number of shares, not time. Time-based methods are a mess and open to hashrate fluctuation attacks.
2. You'll need to decide what to do with a short round when the pool starts, and there are no previous rounds to draw on. You could let the operator take the leftover, or distribute it between the shares (thus creating an expectation bonus early in the life of the pool).
3. You'll need to figure out how to make the payout invariant to changes in difficulty (should be doable).
4. You'll need to handle the case of changing the window length and fees. With other methods, each round is self-contained so you can change parameters between rounds. But here, a contingent future change may affect the current expectation.
2909  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Looking for a new pool on: May 31, 2011, 09:22:28 AM
You should also consider the reward system used by every pool.

Indeed. If you try a new pool, you need to leave your miners on it for at least 72 hours straight, and measure your earnings for that time period.
72 hours isn't enough, certainly not with any of the smaller pools.
2910  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: some beginner questions i could not find answers to on: May 31, 2011, 09:14:45 AM
Did you forward port 8333? This should get you more connections.

Is there any good you could refer to? I guess there are many of them.
poclbm, which also has a GUI version. You'll also need a mining pool like Continuum pool (and a GPU). There are also CPU mining software, a search should unearth them.
2911  Other / Off-topic / Proof-of-work wiki on: May 31, 2011, 08:33:08 AM
It looks like the wiki is currently unavailable.

This got me thinking:

1. Is it possible to have a website hosted in a peer-to-peer way?

2. Assuming a point of contention will be who decides the content of the website - what if it's a wiki, and proof of work is required to make edits?
2912  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin without mining on: May 31, 2011, 08:24:23 AM
Quote from: kjj
You would need not just 50% of the world's hashing power, but closer to 95%+ of it if you wanted to pull off any meaningful BTC scam.
I don't think so. You can steal the vast majority of blocks from then on by storing up blocks you generate and release them only when someone else also solves one. Not sure if you consider that meaningful or not. (There was some long ago thread about this that I can't find now) You could double spend by getting one block ahead of the good network and then just stay ahead until you are ready to drop your one block longer chain.

The time to find a block is not a linear function of your hashing speed, it is a probabilistic process.  Having 10% more power than the other guy doesn't mean you find blocks 10% faster, it means that you have a ~5% chance of finding it before him.

Say that you fraction of the global networking power is X, where 0 <= X <= 1;

The probability that you will be able to do this for one block is X
The probability that you will be able to do this for two blocks is X^2
The probability that you will be able to do this for three blocks is X^3
The probability that you will be able to do this for four blocks is X^4
Etc...

Actually, those are the high end estimates.  In reality, you will need another factor, Y, to correct for the portion of the network that believes in the attack chain.  Over time, Y will get smaller and smaller.

Since this topic keeps coming up over and over again, I'm going to propose a potential solution: every time a node reshuffles, they should make a note of which peer it came from.  More than three reshuffles from the same peer in like 24 hours, and that node is dropped.
These probabilities mistakenly assume that the attacker always builds on the last block.

However, the attack is, as satoshi discusses in his paper, to pick some block to build on and stick to it. If X>0.5 you can cut a branch however long you want, given enough time.

For example, if X=0.6 and you want to cut 10 blocks, after some time period the attacker will find 33 new blocks while the honest network only finds 22, making the attacker's branch win.
2913  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: New cheat-proof mining pool scoring method on: May 30, 2011, 07:32:39 PM
Quote
In fact it's arguably even simpler. For this you don't need to keep ltotalscore. To find the expected payout of a worker for the current round, do

select (1-rd.f)*(1-rd.c)*p*rd.b*sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore))

p should be calculated based on the current difficulty.
Hmm, unless I am doing something wrong, this is throwing out very small expected values per worker. Much lower than the current balance calculation. < 0.001 BTC.
Is it possible you've used lastscore instead of lastlscore?

If that's not it, can you post the values of

rd.f
rd.c
p
rd.b
lastlscore
sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore))
(1-rd.f)*(1-rd.c)*p*rd.b*sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore))
f = -0.001001...
c = 0.001
lastlscore = 369.6131
sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore)) = 15.0887
(1-f)*(1-c)*p*b*sum
= 0.001

sum(exp(lscore-ltotalscore))
0.0345
(1-f)*b*0.0345
= 1.73

The calculations are correct. 0.001 (actually it's closer to 0.002) is the expectation, while 1.73 is what it would be if it's very lucky and the round ends now (remember, on average 430000 more shares will be introduced before the round ends).
Come to think of it, unless you make c higher (decreasing variance for participants), I don't know if the expectation for already submitted shares is such a useful measure.
Can you tell me the hashrate of this worker and how long it has mined before this evaluation?
2914  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: New cheat-proof mining pool scoring method on: May 30, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
Quote
In fact it's arguably even simpler. For this you don't need to keep ltotalscore. To find the expected payout of a worker for the current round, do

select (1-rd.f)*(1-rd.c)*p*rd.b*sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore))

p should be calculated based on the current difficulty.
Hmm, unless I am doing something wrong, this is throwing out very small expected values per worker. Much lower than the current balance calculation. < 0.001 BTC.
Is it possible you've used lastscore instead of lastlscore?

If that's not it, can you post the values of

rd.f
rd.c
p
rd.b
lastlscore
sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore))
(1-rd.f)*(1-rd.c)*p*rd.b*sum(exp(lscore-lastlscore))
2915  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Cooperative mining (500Ghash/s) on: May 30, 2011, 05:59:55 PM
Could someone explain to me how the block confirmation process works or direct me to a link that will explain it in some detail? From reading parts of this thread and others, I see that the network needs 120 (100 on Slush's pool) confirmations before bitcoins generated move from unconfirmed to confirmed. What does that process entail? Why does it take seemingly forever to generate 100 confirmations?

I like Slush's pool a lot. I like the way the statistics are displayed and the ease of use of the interface. I have no desire to go anywhere else, but I am very interested in learning more about it.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain have some additional information. 100 confirmations means 100 blocks in the chain on top of the block in question.
2916  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [FAQ] Is BitCoin a Ponzi or pyramid scheme? (Newbie-Friendly) on: May 30, 2011, 02:57:32 PM
How do we know that the bitcoin currency will ever be used for buying/selling real-world things and services? As it is today (2011-05-30) very few users are using this bitcoin currency to trade real-world things and services. What reasons do we have to believe that this kind of usage will ever increase? If it doesn't, then the bitcoin value will eventually decrease to zero. The "deflationary spiral" faq didn't cover this part of the question. Please give me some arguments or point me to where this has already been discussed/explained.
For one thing, the number of merchants that accept Bitcoin is steadily increasing. Have you looked at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade ? I'd say the list is quite impressive by now.

Also, merchants can accept bitcoins even without having faith in the currency. They can programmatically sell them for another currency whenever they make a sale, treating it merely as a superior money transfer mechanism. Because of its advantages it is only natural that more and more shops will accept it.
2917  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: New cheat-proof mining pool scoring method on: May 30, 2011, 02:36:40 PM
To understand the algorithm better, I tried to translate the SQL code from this thread into a more general pseudocode format.  I decided to post it here in case it helps anyone else to understand how the scoring algorithm works.

Note that it does not include the difficulty adjustment calculation as recently discussed.
Note that to help understand how the scoring algorithm works, you would need to post it in linear scale.

Since you wrote it in log scale, it really serves the purpose of helping understand how to implement it in a numerically robust way.
2918  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: ATI underclocking memory under linux? on: May 30, 2011, 11:57:04 AM
you can adjust the memclock with AMD Overdrive Ctrl https://sourceforge.net/projects/amdovdrvctrl/
+1. This is definitely the program you want.

and please write on the board https://sourceforge.net/projects/amdovdrvctrl/forums/forum/1335752/topic/4026230 for the support of multiplte GPU's, maybe in the next version  Wink

if the developer sees that alot people actually need that kind of feature, i think it would be coded fast Wink
I think this was already implemented. -i flag sets the GPU to be used, and you can get the ID of all GPUs with -h or something. I've used it successfully with 2X5970.
2919  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: My website can accept BTC, little help please on: May 30, 2011, 11:42:01 AM
1. You need to hand out a different Bitcoin address to every customer, maybe even for each transaction. Keep a log of which address is associated with which details.
2. Not that I know of. PayPal has hassled people who use it to exchange BTC for other currencies.
2920  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Does pool hopping really work? on: May 30, 2011, 11:16:48 AM
Hopping away from a single pool (at 43% of mean round time) earns 30% more. Hopping between a couple pools (I have 4 currently automated) earns me 70% more. If you'd automate a dozen pools, you could earn more than 100% extra.
In the theoretical limit of infinitely many proportional pools and perfect hopping, I think you get log(difficulty) times normal, which currently is X13, or 1200% extra.
It can't be right. First of all, hopping reward is completely independent of difficulty.  1GH/s hopper @ difficulty 100000 gets the same reward as 2GH/s hopper @ difficulty 200000. Secondly, even with infinite number of pools, there is a finite number of blocks. With 6 blocks/hours you can only make 6 hops an hour and some of the hops are impossible to do (you cannot hop to solo miners). My guess based on the intuition I gained working on this problem is that in the limit of infinite number of proportional pools, all global hashrate contributed by the pools you can hop into, and optimal hopping, you can probably get about 100-150% more. I'm yet to derive it or program a simulator. This number is reduced if some hashrate is from solo mining and if the pool operators introduce countermeasures. I doubt that anon4758 can get further beyond his 70% by more than a few percent because he probably hops among almost all the hashrate available for hopping.
The model you've analyzed in the paper is continuous and does not take into account share granularity. If p=1/difficulty and you submit to a proportional pool the very first share in a round, you'll note that your expected payout is $\sum_{i=1}^{\infty}p(1-p)^{i-1}\frac1i \approx -\log p$.

However, you are correct that I have not taken into account that you will also need infinitely many blocks for this. So what we can say is: With perfect hopping, you can get X13, but not continuously - rather, you run your miner only when a proportional pool has a new round, which will give you the measly volume of 1 share per block found by a proportional pool. This result is of course of no practical significance, but generally analyzing intermittent mining may be important if electricity is a large portion of the cost.

This geometric score requires either huge fees or introduce a payoff variance for the pool operators which may be unacceptable for them.
With a correct choice of parameters, the variance can be acceptable for both the operator and the participants.
At current difficulty, with c = 0.00015 and f = 0.02-c, you get 2% average fee and a variance reduction of X133 for both operator and participants, compared to having the same payout mining solo. This isn't bad.
If you want to give up a little hopping-resistance to gain a little variance-reduction, you can decrease the operator's score for a given r. slush basically reduces it to 0 and thus has only a little resistance, but you can find a better balance.
But the decay based on shares rather than time is a pure advantage which should be adopted even if score fee is eschewed.
I don't know where you got the part about huge fees.
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