|
It is already happening. You will soon be able to purchase Bitcoin through a financial instrument. I will announce it when its ready and the product is readily available to purchase online and through banks on the stock market.
|
|
|
|
I hate to be a wet blanket, but if "they" wanted to stop this why couldn't "they" simply pass a law stating that it was illegal to buy or sell bitcoins?
Or "they" could impose a punitive tax on purchases or sales of bitcoins.
I suppose my point is: if "they" really want to make bitcoin illegal, then they will find a way to do it; I don't think creating bitcoin derivatives will help much on the legal front.
Can you start to imagine the implications of voiding thousands of people's investments through a regulated entity in a publicly listed financial instrument? This is unheard of historically. We have no past comparison of a stock being removed from a stock exchange, especially if its held by private investors, banks and what not. Banning Bitcoin would bring a lot of complications if this instrument was already out. Who would pay people's investment back? And imagine the media attention to this, do you really think they want that? This would make Bitcoin the most talked about financial tool the world has even witnessed. Hardly what "they" would like to see happening with Bitcoin. Regardless what, I am going to go ahead with this option, it can only bring more funds into the Bitcoin economy. |
|
|
|
I think the majority of people here are totally missing your point. The idea is simply to leverage funds against bitcoins to allow major financial industries to speculate on the market and the value of bitcoin. Right? This would allow BIG money to flow in and out of bitcoin completely legally. It would give a huge increase to the value opening it up to the real markets and this would be the simplest way to do it it seems. How much funds would be needed to start this? Do correct me if im wrong this is the way I seem to understand your proposal. I think the large number of software developers here and very few economists here does lend well to your way to access the financial markets  Glad to see someone really got it! You are correct, that is exactly what I want to archive! Required funds is in the range of 10.000€ to 15.000€ depending on which stock exchange and how we eventually end up listing the bond/EFT's. |
|
|
|
|
There is no reason to complicate it to such an extend. By simply pegging the bond to the bitcoin price you archive float, which is the purpose. The bitcoin success only depends on float and volume. The method described allows for such.
What you describe is going to cause havoc, be many times more expensive and not feasible since it would require a company to be listed. Mind you there is a big different from listing a bond to listing a whole company on an exchange. Big difference aka. price and time
|
|
|
|
|
Stock traders are just executing orders on the market. A market such as Euronext and NASDAQ has middle men, which are banks and other financial institutions that are allowed to execute financial orders on behalf of third party. But this is not a problem per say, since you as client tell your broker (bank) to execute an order for you. You basically do that through an online system, and the bank purchases the instrument on behalf of you. There is no magic here or any chance of getting "shut down". It is just a financial instrument as all other financial instruments.
|
|
|
|
|
You are looking at it from a wrong perspective. Purchasing bonds is not about giving the means for each and every person to purchase a bond/EFT which is pegged to Bitcoin.
By issuing a bond/EFT you simply increase the float, ie. you increase the customer base into an environment that is dealing with trillions daily. If you list the product on the financial markets, all banks, financial institutions, and everyone that does some small time trading through trading platforms will be able to purchase the product, thus indirectly purchasing Bitcoins.
While people will still be able to purchase on Mtgox and Tradehill, a whole different class of speculators and institutions will gain access to Bitcoins through a familiar platform, which is a stock exchange such as NASDAQ, Amex, Euronext and so on. This is about float, not about giving everyone here easier access to Bitcoin - this is already possible for us through Mtgox and Tradehill.
Yet some people outside our core forum/industry does not like to purchase Bitcoin this way because the amounts you can exchange is simply to little for a bank or corporation to matter. We have to start talking 10+ million of dollars.
For the sake of simplicity imagine it as being virtual gold pegged to an EFT/bond.
|
|
|
|
|
Very good idea! Bond-EFT's are the best solution for sure!
I have some contacts in the stock exchanges and law firms that can setup the issuing of a financial product. I will try to post more information as I get more information.
|
|
|
|
|
Your complicating your issue way to much in your topic. What I am simply saying in this thread is that you dont have to invent the wheel again. You do as every large corporation or country is doing when they need money and float. Instead of treating Bitcoin as something that cannot be integrated with the money markets - start playing ball in the field where the money lies.
Banks and investors dont care much about what Bitcoin is doing to change the world, they just want to make money. Give them the means to make those money, and issue a financial instrument to THEIR ballgame they can play with.
Not only is this completely legal, but it will completely go around the system that is constantly shutting down Bitcoin. Here we are talking about issuing a financial product to the markets that people can purchase and sell as they have always been used to.
As I said, the incentive is that the instrument has a unique behavior compared to other instruments. The instrument, lets call it Bitcoinbond, will have unique properties, which will/will not be enough incentive for a professional investor to treat it as safe investment.
Here is another way to put it so people can understand:
1) Company A is incorporated
2) Company A issues X amount of bonds and pegs them to the Bitcoin price
3) Bonds gets sold on the respective exchange to investors/banks
4) Company buys up Bitcoin for all the money it receives of the bonds
Instead of Bitcoin input Gold, and this would be a business that is completely legal and possible and is actually a reality these days.
|
|
|
|
|
May be for the average person, but what this solves is a fast track into the money markets, where institutional investors, banks, financial companies and other legal entities can purchase a financial instrument pegged to a currency. A bit like the Eurobond that is pegged directly to the Euro, a Bitcoinbond can be pegged to Bitcoin. This allows for hedging by large corporations.
The incentive would of course be that Bitcoin offers something no other currency offers, which is basing its price on pure supply/demand. This gives Bitcoin a carte blanche into the money markets and institutional investors can start treating Bitcoin as a currency adopted by the professional markets.
Basically the company running such a scheme would be an exchange, in the same way MtGox is an exchange. But instead of basing it on old fashion "money for bitcoin" we overlay the structure with a product that is legally binding by the laws set forth in the companies act.
No shut down can occur!
|
|
|
|
Hello everyone, As it seems our "industry" has a problem which is float. We keep on trying to make things happen, despite the fact that most banks and financial institutions wont touch Bitcoin with a fire hose. When it comes to PayPal, Visa & Mastercard the game is even worse as complete shutdown for no apparent reason always occurs. Well there is a way into the world of finances which is possible, and shutting "us" down would be quite difficult, none the less it would probably cause mayor headlines if such was to happen, as it plays with the foundation of capitalism - the right of ownership (compared to the right of having a merchant account). It takes significantly more to shut down a company, which is publicly listed, has its shares spread among (X + 1000) shareholders and the company's share price is denominated in the daily price of Bitcoin. Now you ask, how is this possible? Well it requires that someone, pegs a public listed company to the Bitcoin price, by issuing a bond, a socalled zero-coupon bond. Here is how it can go step by step. Mind you, this is all still in theory and would require a great amount of funds. - Incorporate a company in Europe/Offshore (Europe/Offshore because the SEC regulations for getting a company up and running on a publicly listed exchange is quite harsh). - Make sure the company memorandum & articles states that the company's sole purpose is to issue bitcoin denominated zero-coupon bonds. - Make sure the company is owned by a trust with a trustee guardian (this can be a law firm), which is only bound by following the company memorandum & articles by law. Thus CEO influence is down to minimum and only on an administrative level. CEO responsibilities/profit would be paid out on a % basis of the public trade. Same goes for trustee. - Issue 21.000.000 zero-coupon bonds and peg them to the Bitcoin daily price as per Mtgox.com/Tradehill for indication for starting point (as we assume arbitrage would be done in order to stabilize price all over) - Trading occurs when a private person purchases a bond by sending Bitcoin to the company account, and receiving the bond OTC, or purchasing it directly on the market for dollar/euro, controlled by the trustee of the company, which is by law bound to execute order to the CEO of issuing a bond. By law the trustee is a regulated entity which will either risk loosing their license to practice or follow suit. Bond is being issued through a broker, that is usually the marked maker (aka. the Bank that helped issue the bonds on the marked to begin with). - It does not have to be called a bond, which is a debt certificate. The instrument can be something different, a CDO (Collateralized Debt Obligations), which is backed by the company's holdings of Bitcoin. Or it can be one of the myriad of financial instruments that covers the exact need. For more types of bonds and for the sake of debate look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_market#Types_of_bond_marketsNow there are implications with this method. It more or less requires someone that wants to setup and exchange, but wants to be free of the hassle of having their bank account shut down every second month. By running a company, it is based on a complete different set of laws, and closing something like this down, just because someone doesnt like the idea is next to impossible. Actually as far as I know closing down a public company has not happened, apart from bankruptcy. |
|
|
|
I just wanted to let people know: http://www.cnbc.com/id/45013499Seems like they want to implement something that is already available, aka. Bitcoin. Funny how the keep missing this important piece of information. One would think its a godly intervention  |
|
|
|
|
genjix is right!
They will never openly risk a debate on Bitcoin - especially since it has the potential of getting more people sided with the currency if a debate is opened. That would actually be the worse thing they could do, as it would give bitcoin more press and make it sound like: "The bad banks/govs vs the people".
By closing down accounts and calling it money laundry and what not they silence the entire community, more panic arises and thus the press will be free to mock bitcoin once again and label it as fail.
|
|
|
|
Wow! If Forbes or Wired is saying it then it must be true. Wait a minute......what exactly does Forbes or Wired has to do with Bitcoin? And last time I checked Bitcoin is more than twice as valuable as the dollar. Beside that, its decentralized, so how exactly can it die if there is no central authority that can crush or become insolvent? People get it in your heads, you cannot place the same terms on Bitcoin as you can with fiat money. This is something new, now please find other ways to describe it rather than stating its dead which is impossible unless all clients are uninstalled. |
|
|
|
Funny thing he forgot to mention is that the main criminal (Bitcoin) in this case is not residing on the so-called "Dark Web". Makes you wonder if we are that "Dark Web" after all  |
|
|
|
|
Usually I go to bitcoin.org and then click the forum link there, that takes me to google and then click the first url, which is bitcointalk.org
For some reason that is now gone? Was it removed intentionally? If so, that cant be good, because how would "newcomers" know where the community is, and not end up with a scammers forum that promises the world for installing a nice btc trojan.....
I get the whole point of severing the link and decentralizing it, but killing it from google? Or am I just completely wrong?
|
|
|
|
I'd argue that bitcoins ARE something, and can have legal standing. I won't argue strongly against you, but your analogy is not entire parallel. The key pairs are not the bitcoins. The transactions are not the bitcoins. Bitcoins are an idea by consensus. What we are signing is "I send 50 bitcoins". I can say "I send you a postcard" but those are only words. The postcard might exist. The bitcoins don't. On the other hand, law seems to accept "intellectual property" as a thing with defensible and transferable ownership. I happen to disagree. To me, it's a bit like playing tea with the stuffed animals. I can claim to pour some tea into your cup, and you can accept that I've done that, but it's all just imaginary. EDIT: "legally binding contract" - ah yeah, OK. I hear what you are saying. But I don't think the bitcoins are the contract. The contract is "I promise to perform a series of actions that will result in a network agreeing to verify that I've performed those actions, in exchange for your pogs". If you deliver the pogs and I fail to perform the actions, then I'm acting fraudulently. I still hold that bitcoins don't exist any more than a blown kiss, whether signed or not. I quite like the playing with tea analogy of what Bitcoin is. Because it is exactly that! Imaginary, yet we give it value, which is what everything in this world is as well. I guess the problem lies in getting people to accept a new imaginary "thing" that is even more imaginary than the paper money. Lets hope the French courts soon have a draft for this we can look at! |
|
|
|
I posted it as news post on my site here: www.italkcash.com Hopefully this story will catch on in the larger media, as this is super good news! |
|
|
|
This is actually mayor news!!!  A court of law saying BTC is fine is a great step! Can we get the name of the bank? It wouldn harm you more to let people know the bank doing this against our community. |
|
|
|
|
Err how was this information obtained? Did the person talk to FSA or someone in the EU commission? Is there any EU politician or finance ministry that is semi-publicly stating this? And IRC chat log doesnt seem that creditable.
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
