Prudent.

1) I believe you'll easily move 800-1000 stickminers globally.
2) I also believe that there is a substantial market for S1 replacements.
3) If it were me, I'd reserve a larger quantity (300-400) for multi-chip dev. As it's a skill set (multi-chip dev) that few others have.
4) Bitmain "promised" to release their new product line in July (I'll share the email if desired, think I already shared that with Novak in a PM), anyway, we're sneaking up on August . . . .
5) Since late May antpool's hash rate has gone from high 50's PH/a to 80+ Ph/s and last time I checked they're the second largest pool.
6) Our contacts in the 3M immersion cooling world have indicated to us that the Spondoolies work well immersed . . . How would they know that, unless it's been tried.
7) Getting a VC to put up 1/4 mill for outdated chips would be a very hard sell even with a brilliant board design.
Getting a VC to fund a competitive startup with an aggressive plan not so much. i.e. a company that designs hash chips, builds boards, and either hashes with those boards and/or sells some.
9) If the big 4 release new chips in Sept and whomever acquiesces to selling you chips, I'm betting you'll have a product in time for Christmas. Not pinging on you, just stuff takes time.

GekkoScience et. al., I can think of no other I would rather have designing/implementing boards, you are always at the fore front of our minds in that regard.

But designing/implementing a board without chip availability is a moot point, regardless of the targeted consumer community.
It boils down to a simple supply chain management problem. A problem that I can imagine has multiple solutions.

I think it's safe to say that the BE300 is a dead horse, and I for one am gonna' quit kicking it.
Having said that, I think it's time to pickup the BE300 style torch and design a new chip.
How that would happen, exactly, I'm clueless, but would jump on the supportt/participation bandwagon in a heartbeat.
Just to be clear, I/We are not a Richie Rich and could not fund a 1/4 mill effort.
But we do have contacts that would consider that sum to be "pocket change".

Used to think the small hobbyist miner was a dying breed. I don't hold that opinion anymore.
I believe, at the latest, when the next block reward reduction happens most if not all the small to medium sized miners will go the way of the dodo. That includes us.
I think this time next year the panorama will be very polarized, the extremely large and the extremely small.
So positioning to manufacture and sell to the small has merit.
 

"With AM doing what it did.  Would be intresting to see someone take that chip and make it and see if you can get better results.  But I'm sure to get the right's would be a mess with AM and cant really consider them reliable."

We have given thought to purchasing the IP (as licensing is out of the question) for the BE300 (assuming one could find the legally clear IP owner). From what we know, it would be a nightmare with the possibility of actors coming out of the woodwork after the fact demanding compensation. If an entity were to obtain the IP for the BE300, the design would need to be "tweaked" to make it a derivative work (~20%) to stay clear of IP infringement. Likely after that expense(s) it would be cheaper to "start from scratch".

And yeah, I'd like to get my hands on qty 100 BE300's.

Relieved to hear you have a miniscule amount of "raw material" to work with, else a lot of your "time, hate, and discontent" would have been for naught.

Have been doing some research on the Avalon4 and the sfards.
Not really impressed with the sfards as I'm not an alt crypto kinda' guy.
Now an Avalon4 remasked and shrunk to 12nm-16nm, hhhhmmmmmm.
Really like the ability to tweak bunches of stuff. Understand that's not so much of the hash chip itself but the ecosystem it lives in.

IMHO, what this community needs is to find a chip designer and get something designed and manufactured in 12nm to 16nm (isn't that what AM started out to be?)

Anyway I promised I'd STFU . . . .

1) My last post was on July 09, 2015, 04:17:43 PM (6 days ago).
2) It was a statement not an inquiry and thus required no response.
3) My question was NOT about stickminer availability. RTMFP
4) If sidehack finds me/us annoying he can ban us post haste at his leisure.
5) You are not privy to the back channel communications sidehack/Novak and we have had pertaining to this critical (and might I add brilliant) development effort.
6) By posting in the public forumn versus a PM was complying with his request to NOT be PM'ed about trivial matters (completed product availability).

The question was posted because very recently (yesterday) Bitmain has indicated to us that there are no chips (BM1384's) and S5 hash boards available for sale as they have all been used up making complete S5's (The price of which has risen ~$100 in the last 2 weeks). They are also unwilling to sell broken hash boards. It seems they are even having (creating) issues with supplying warranty based replacements. We have 2 boards that need to be replaced under warranty and they are giving us "the run around".

The above is a "sea change" in attitude with respect to our relationship with Bitmain.
Who in the past has been more than willing to supply us with "raw" components for our immersion cooling endeavors.
I suspect that they are "cleaning out" inventory of their old designs and at the same time gouging the ecosystem due to the lack of mining H/W availability.

Anyway, back to lurking.

Any word on the chip order?

As it sits right now.

I want 2 sticks, cuz' they're cute and to keep/run for posterity.

Currently have 10 S1's (20 hash boards) that are cold and dark and need to be upgraded to something cost efficient.
The S1's are currently listed for sale on eBay, but the closer this project gets to having a viable S1 replacement/upgrade board the faster I'll pull the listing.
Also have space available on several S(odd) waterblocks in the farm (~5 hash boards).
And will want additional hash boards for 2 phase immersion cooling testing (unknown quantity total, but at least 2 to start with).

If the S(odd) replacement/upgrade boards are BM1384 based or whatever based, that's fine with me, as long as that board runs at or below .5W/GH/s

Also have 3 dead Prisma boards whose hash will need to be replaced with something more reliable.

Have been holding off buying new hardware because of this project, Bitmain has not yet released their new product(s) whatever that may be, and Bitmain has no available S5 hash boards and controllers for sale.
All things being equal, I would prefer to purchase from GekkoScience as their designs are typically superior, thoroughly tested, obsolescence resistant, and as such represent a better "bang for the buck".

We need to be buying H/W, ideally something that is physically compatible with the Bitmain S(odd) product line.

Ain't phishing for a deal, just stating what our business needs to do to continue growing and remain profitable.

Sweet!! 

So is that a calibrated piece of dimensional spruce? LOL
Looks alot like our test bench.

Don't see a trimmer pot for Vcore, course then my eye sight ain't so good.
Doing that in S/W?

Think I'd send one on over to Germany, and pass the addiction on into Europe.

Can't wait to see what ya' do with the 18 chip version.

Still in for 2 of the sticks when you get a round-2-it.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead

LOL!!

Well the 4th of July is on the horizon.

hhhhmmmmmm.

A liquid cooled potato cannon. Interesting concept. Now if I can just get DARPA funding . . . .

Hey CG, Wassssuuupppp!

You wouldn't, per chance, know who AM sourced those heatsinks from?

If one were to TIG the sinks together and TIG a cap/tank on each end with an appropriately sized piece of AL square tube stock down the center. . . .
Will post pics when finished.

Any word/rumors on FriedCat's whereabouts?

Too put a fine point to it, I'd like to see: One thousand, additional, profitable, 50TH mining farms in one thousand homes.
Howsoever the H/W is implemented.

During the time I've been involved with BTC ecosystem I've witnessed a paradigm shift in mining concentration.
When one of the "Big 4" operates the second largest pool, and pools that were huge now account for a small fractional part of the total network hash, I get really concerned.
https://blockchain.info/pools

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
Winston Churchill
 

Regarding patents and patenting:
We're more alike than you might think. I stayed an E-5 in the Navy precisely because I loved the tech versus the paperwork (Was THE senior E-5 in the Navy for almost a decade till I got caught and was forced to advance or get busted to an E-4.)

For some types of patents the process has become much simpler and dramatically cheaper. As is evidenced by http://www.legalzoom.com/sem/ip/patent/patent-lb.html?kid=07705699-061f-2529-72f2-00004a8dcce3&cvokid=07705699-061f-2529-72f2-00004a8dcce3&keyword=legalzoom%20provisional%20patent&matchtype=broad&cvosrc=ppc.google.legalzoom%20provisional%20patent&gclid=COLYl-qWxcUCFQ4yaQodDIIA_w

Jesus, look at that URL. Anyway.
Depending on your upcoming design(s), we would entertain taking on the patenting process BS and is something we can converse about when the time is ripe.

Regarding non-air cooling:
None taken. But let's see if I can make a case for a liquid cooled design for the masses. Air is a REALLY low density liquid. As such, there is a finite limit on how much cooling can be packed into consumer product. That limits profitability of an air cooled consumer design. Which makes them less profitable than an "industrial" design. Traditionally, liquid cooling adds several levels of complexity and failure points, most notably the mechanism to pump fluid. Now if one could design a liquid cooling system that used convection to move the fluid. . . .  This also solves the noise issues that plague a home design that can largely be ignored in a DC. And while pumps have a lower MTBF, fans fail too. And then there's the KISS principle.

Standardization is what made the small block Chevy engines/transmissions, Ford Model A, and Ford 9N/2N/8N tractors advanceable and popular designs. Combined with their affordability. If I were designing something, anything, I'd lean towards something that had become the "defacto standard". In the Bitcoin mining H/W world, I think, hands down, the S1/S3/C1/S5/S? boards physical dimensions account for the majority of the hashing power out there. I think I'd steer clear of a Prisma physical dimensions design and focus on packing the largest amount of hashing power into a board that "bolts up" to a S1/S3/C1/S5/S? cooling device. Be it air, waterblock, or immersion. If it had an edge card connector that plugged into a server PSU all the better, poke poke. 

I contend that if you put that much hashing power on a board that meets those physical dimensions (or Prisma dimensionality) that it will no longer be able to be cooled by air without ridiculously massive heatsinks.

The Prisma design is nicely dense, but is finicky with regard to heat. Due to the huge surface area required "on air" to keep them from burning up (here I'm referring to the cooling not a flawed circuit card design). Friedcat's design to "tube" the heatsinks was brilliant but required from a heat dissipation standpoint (and that required a "one off" heatsink design). Hash chip (BE200) temperature from the front to back vary enormously. The last chain of chips on each board in a properly operating Prisma have got to be on the edge of max Tj. I'm surprised they survive. Waterblock and immersion cooling solves this issue.

IMHO, to keep the consumer/home hasher "in the game" of BTC mining (as this strengthens the BTC ecosystem) they need the kind of industrial strength high density hashing power that large farms can afford to implement. In effect what I'm talking about is miniaturizing a mining farm into a desktop unit from a W/GH/s standpoint. Superior high density board designs (efficient and flexible) are a component of this solution, but, pretty sure you can't do that "on air". Cuz' if one could, the "big boys" would be doing it. Haven't ever heard of a large mining concern that doesn't have a facilities chilled water system, for a reason. This becomes all the more important because home hashers typically buy electricity at a premium price (residential rates).

These small scale mining issues will become more, not less, pronounced as transistor size decreases and eventually bumps into the quantum wall at or below 12nm (Dec 2015 - Feb 2016 ?). The "big guys" will be able to afford and manage those high density designs because they cool with a denser liquid that is enabled by economies of scale. Something the home hasher, currently, can't afford to do.

Am reasonably confident that if you'all produce a high density design that has a common dimensionality (S1/S3/C1/S5/S?) and it can't be cooled by air (in a reasonable volume), this community will figure out a plethora of ways to cool it. Like yourselves, there are some pretty bright bulbs in this box. And am not saying, by any stretch, that I'm included in that box.

First step is to get a board to work with because it's obvious that the "big 4" don't give a F@#$ about us little guys. Little being defined as sub 500TH/s mining operations.

Another key element in securing the survivability of the "little guy" is a source of state of the art hashing chips. Because a board design can only be as good as the components on the board. AM could have been this if they hadn't imploded. And why I'm REALLY interested in who owns the IP for the BE300. But those are topics for other posts in other threads.

Heading out to spend the obligatory Fathers Day w/kids and grandkids, catch ya'all l8r.
 

As I understand it, Novec Fluids are chemical cousins to 3M's Fire Suppression fluids used in Data Centers.
It's like a "thicker" fluorocarbon freon.
I've personally had my hands in tanks of it and I'm not growing any third arms or heads.
And while it wouldn't be my first choice in a beverage I'm pretty sure it won't kill ya' if ingested in small quantities.
It does not get shipped as a hazardous, toxic, or flammable item.
Pretty sure even the US postal system will take it.

7000, 7100, 7200; when a small quantity is poured into your cupped hand evaporates in seconds.
We use it around the shop as a circuit board cleaner.
But at ~$300/gallon it gets used sparingly.

The MSDS sheet is on the 3M website if really curious.

And it's not nearly as slimy as mineral oil, yuccchhhhh.

S5 Profit versus Clock Speed Analysis.
Analysis Spreadsheet may be found here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yq1c22quyktfm32/C1%20%26%20S5%20Profit%20vs%20Clock%20Speed%20analysis.xlsx?dl=0

So now I'm curious, what countries/regions ban or can't be shipped to Novec Engineered Fluids?
In our conversations with 3M they seemed to believe/portray that Novec could be shipped anywhere.

"Most of it was just common sense, ..." For you'all easy-peasy, for the majority not so much.

"I've standardized a design/interface?" chip chain design and USB interface.

"If by "record time" you mean "over a month behind the initial timeline", then yes." Apply the 80/20 rule. 80% gets accomplished in 20% of the time allotted, the remaining 20% of the work takes 80% of the time.
Or stated another way, figure out how long you think it's going to take (in hours, days, months, etc), double the number and increment to the next time measurement metric. So something I think will take 2 hours really takes 4 days. 

Using the later estimation method, I'd say you're way ahead of schedule.

For my own projects I always add on an additional 10%. I lovingly call that additional time my "fudge factor". I include it to compensate for all the unknowns that can't be budgeted for. Like staff being called away for family emergencies (family first, rightfully so), supply chain delays, natural disasters, and a million other things that can't be anticipated. Project management is a combination of math and art. It's not a precise science, it's a fuzzy science.

Patent protection doesn't protect what you've spent. Patent protection protects what a thing/idea is worth. It protects future value. It's a time constrained value estimation.
"I'm not sure tuning code is actually a patentable idea, since it's been done before on other hardware." But likely not the way you're going to do it, on the H/W you're working with. That makes it distinctive, and hence patentable. And probably worth protecting. Even if you only improve how it was done in the past, that improvement is patentable, and again, I believe, worth protecting. You deserve to be paid equitably for your effort, because it's not something everyone else can do.

Now I'm gonna' shut up, quit distracting you, and let you get on with your day. 

Some stuff we did with immersion cooling.
https://www.youtube.com/user/PlanetCrypto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fStHV_Q-x7s

Let's look at this objectively.
IMHO:

• You've reversed engineered another companies board (no small feat),
• you've dramatically improved on their design,
• you've standardized a design/interface,
• all the while maintaining a competitive price point,
• and accomplished these herculean tasks in record time,
• on a shoestring RD&D budget.

If for whatever reason autotune, either in firmware or S/W, isn't implemented I see no reason for embarrassment.
You're already a league ahead of the competition, implementing autotune makes you the "only game in town" and puts you a light year ahead of the nearest competitor.
Autotune, if implemented in firmware, extends that competitive advantage dramatically.
If you guys were to even do a patent applied for you could non-exclusively license that tech to whomever.
You could receive a licensing fee, or include it in an agreement to buy chips.

I just want to see you guys "get ahead" whatever that means to you'all.
So let me paint a picture, you could exclusively license the tech to a chip manufacturer (who may be a competitor, not naming any names here) for an agreement in writing for current and future chip availability and pricing.

Or maybe the above AND a smaller fee (so you have the resources to buy chips).

Have no doubt you can make autotune happen, however you decide to.
But autotune and self-healing is a serious game changer in my mind.

Just sayin'

"You can't say cgminer will optimize all boards to the same point until you know what driver code we end up writing."
Absolutely correct, as I'm not privy to the "behind the scenes" thinking going on.

I can however make a reasonably correct statement based on the existing state of cgminer, et. al.
Which is what I think I did.