I am attacking your ideas and NOT you personally.  YOU may be a nice guy, and we may get along to have a beer; however, your most recent post  is bullshit - especially the first sentence.  YOU cannot just keep repeating the same concept using different words, and then accuse me of NOT listening or NOT understanding your brilliance.  Can you be a little more respectful to the opinions of others?  YOU do NOT have any crystal ball regarding the future regarding the role of government that is any better than my ideas - just b/c they seem to vary somewhat.  You are being patronizing  engaging in a form of personal attack and acting as if I do NOT know anything about what I am saying, merely b/c my views vary from yours.  

Yes, I agree there are a lot of irresponsible behaviors of current governments (especially this printing of money and giving the money to rich people without any accountability to cause them to loan the money or give the money to the people), but governments are also very resilient and they have many supporters and blood suckers that are NOT going to let them fail any time soon....


When do you expect this supposed governmental collapse?  In the lifetime of anyone reading this thread?  within 70 years?  I probably only have 30-40 more years left in me, at best, if I'm lucky.  

YOU are talking pie in the sky, if you think that you have a vision and a prediction about the downfall of government that is more sound and more realistic than anyone else's b/c your prediction is based on some kind of mathematics (that certainly cannot fail to prove correct, yeah right).

And, ONE Of my problems with this data, is that I cannot figure out from when the data snapshot was.  What's the date?



Aren't they starting the winkdex... they are going to need to transfer some coins around in order to get the winkdex started, no?

We are dealing with floating facts, here. 

Also, I understand that there are laws, so YOU do NOT need to lecture me on relevancy of certain laws to the facts that we are batting around.....


If I were in the business of trying to get rid of my bitcoins through localbitcoins and attempting to eek out a living.. I could give a flying fuck, what people are using the bitcoins for, and I find it completely troubling that they want to tell me that they are going to do something illegal with them..... b/c I could care less.... and I do NOT need to know those kinds of details,,,,   Most people are NOT going to be so stupid as to involve you or to tell you that they are going to use the btc to engage in illegal activity.. (same with cash if I was giving someone cash for gold... they gave me gold and told me what they were going to do with the cash.. I dont care).... .... and especially, some 20 year old kids are NOT going to know the difference...  b/c they are merely just trying to sell some bitcoins and to make a profit...  so it is kind of a set up for some stupid ass FBI agents to be telling people these things about how they plan to use their bitcoins to buy drugs or to be able to hire a killer or some thing in order to attempt to get the 20 year old kid involved... the kid doesnt care.. just wants to make money on the bitcoins...  The FBI agent is telling details in order to set up the kid for a sting.. ...     THAT'S RIGHT.

ON the other hand, once we know that there is this kind of FBI targeting of people on localbitcoins who are just trying to make some cash to accuse them of being some kind of accomplice... therefore, some of them (Including myself if i were to do it), would chose NOT to sell bitcoins to people who are spouting off about doing illegal activities with their bitcoin.

It's the same if I am trying to sell my motorcycle... and I am getting a little bit desperate b/c NO one wants to buy it for $2,000.  Everyone who contacts me is offering me less than what it is worth.  Finally, I get someone who says that he will pay me $2000 for it...  and I am happy and O>K... let's just do the deal.. why the fuck do you need to tell me that you are going to use the motorcycle to rob a bank... I do NOT care and I do NOT want to know what the fuck you are going to use it for... and most people who really were going to use it that way would NOT tell those kinds of details..   And, all I want to do is to sell you my motorcycle.. and i do not give a shit about what you are going to use it for.. I am NOT trying to enable you to rob any bank... even though that ends up being the result... .and then I am pissed off b/c I cannot sell my motorcycle b/c you had to go and tell me what you were going to use it for...

I still ponder over whether we made any progress in our conversation regarding this topic.   I remain of the position that it is my belief that government serves way to many roles to either discontinue it or to completely ignore it.  If you do NOT participate in government, then others will, and the others who are participating are going to have more power and leeway b/c you are NOT participating.  I do NOT see that as a solution that will cause some ultimate pie in the sky collapse... as you are suggesting.  I also find it very unproductive for people to be spouting off that government is NO good without offering solutions.    I seem to be repeating myself.. in regard to saying that I cannot see it productive to just say get rid of all government.. makes little to NO sense to me.

I had NOT previously read through the charges document.  I understand that in order to get this past a judge, prosecutors need plea evidence specific enough, that if true, would be a prima facie case of a violation of the law.  However, if the matter goes to court, they have to prove all of the applicable alleged facts are in fact true and would arise to a violation of the law, and mitigating factors are NOT sufficient in order for a jury to find that Shrem had criminal intent.  Even glancing over count four, I cannot tell whether Shrem is some kind of evil guy acting with bad intentions - that he knowingly was engaged in some kind of joint operation with BTCKing.  Surely, when Shrem was dealing with millions of dollars; probably, it would have been advisable to receive legal consultation concerning his actions.  I thought that Shrem was attempting to run a legitimate bitcoin business, but maybe he got too involved.  Also, there may be some mitigating circumstances also that could let Shrem off the charges b/c Shrem was NO longer engaged in business relations with BTC King between late 2012 into 2013.






Who is to say?  I would imagine that members of the board of the bitcoin foundation are quite attached to Shrem..  From my understanding, they are NOT unified in their opinion about whether to associate with him or whether they should help him or associate with him.  I heard an interview with Shrem, and he was a point person between the bitcoin foundation and GOX and the bitcoin foundation was involved in working with GOX.  Shrem may have access to information to which other bitcoin foundation members do NOT have access.  And, there is some utility in that.

Karplees and Shrem are NOT the same people.  Accordingly, Karpeles may have irritated bitcoin foundation members more b/c he was engaging in activity that seemed to be more damaging to bitcoin as a whole - even though Karpeles has NOT been brought up on any charges, yet.


Surely, these are recent evolving developments, and we do NOT know (at least I do NOT know) the level upon which members of the bitcoin foundation had personal relations with either Karpeles or Shrem, and surely it is possible that the bitcoin may take a vote and take an official position to support or to distance themselves from either Karpeles or Shrem.

I am sad that you live in a state of mind that you feel that you are being forced.  Yes, I agree with the government in A LOT of ways; however, mentally, I recognize the fact that I live in a community of people.  The world is NOT just about me, and in this community of people, a variety of compromises have been made.  Some of the compromises are pure bullshit... Well, maybe a lot of them are pure bullshit that are in place to oppress people.  I recognize the law as a weapon of the rich to oppress the poor - however, it seems that my mentality is different from yours b/c I am NOT going to expend all of my energies bitching and moaning about how unfair it is and suggesting that the only solution is to throw out the baby and the bathwater by some kind of ousting of government.  That is too outrageous b/c there are a lot of people in the community, besides me.   

Personally, I believe that if there were ways to remove money influence in politics, and we were able to elect people to serve the interests of the people as a whole, rather than the rich, then we would move a long way towards a better society. 

If you and I sat down for a beer, I am sure that there would be a lot that we would agree upon, but I am NOT going to agree that the starting place is to shut down government (tomorrow or next week).  Change needs to be more incremental and focused, if such change is going to be meaningful and a product of society rather than a product of the will of only a few.

Charges does NOT a case make.  The government has to prove the charges, and if these are criminal the burden is beyond a reasonable doubt.  There are a lot of people who have been suppressed and oppressed by receiving criminal charges.  And, apparently, the evidence regarding Shrem came from his voluntary providing information b/c he was assisting the government to establish regulation...

I get the sense that he is a 24 year old that did NOT realize that he was getting in over his head, and the government was setting him up b/c of his role in bitcoin.  From what little I know about Shrem, I doubt that he had criminal intentions.

Let's say for example, that you are engaged in a bank money exchange and your customers are drug dealers.  You may or may NOT be involved in their drug dealing business... but it seems that the government is trying to target someone who did NOT have illegal intentions....

Have you heard about some of the recent FBI stings regarding local bitcoins in which FBI agents pose as customers for bitcoins, and they tell sellers on localbitcoins that they are going to use the bitcoins to buy drugs (or some other illegal activity).  Why the hell should I give a flying fuck for what purpose the buyer wants the bitcoins, I am just selling bitcoins.  Anyhow, it is a form of set up to bust people who are selling bitcoins.... people who may have no intent to do anything illegal; however, the fact that the buyer tells them what he is going to do, then the seller becomes an accomplice.  those are bullshit setups.


The govt may pick shrem b/c he seems to be an easy target in terms of resources at his disposal and ability to defend himself and he also seems to be a fairly honest kid that just speaks his mind... without realizing that he is being set up in some technicalities.

I doubt that we are, in any time soon, going to achieve a world in which government is completely unnecessary.  That seems to be pie in the sky thinking.   It is possible that bitcoin can move us in a direction in which the role of government (and its money) is completely changed; however, in the short term, we are NOT going to be "saved" from government.


Surely, I have NO problem with guys having visions about ways in which we can improve society; however, some kind of cold turkey abolition of government does NOT seem to be ANY kind of meaningful or realistic solution.  There are too many vested interests and too many people would be hurt with such radical measures.




It appears that you have a passion to argue about this kind of a topic, and possibly accomplishing such by merely continuing to reassert your same argument over and over that government taxation is theft.  That is NOT a meaningful argument.

When I mention complexities, I am NOT wanting to get into this topic b/c there are a lot of governments - national, state and local, and government serves a wide array of functions - military, policing, regulatory, social benefits, economic.  Yes, theft may occur within government; however, when the topic of theft came up, we were referring to the actions of GOX.  Gox is NOT a government as far as I know.  Gox was NOT engaged in taxation... So to compare the thievery activities of GOX to taxation is taking us far afield from the original point(s) being made.

I don't see any problem with agreeing to disagree.  It seems that i already addressed this in my other post..  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg5614843#msg5614843).

So it is likely that we would be repeating ourselves and NOT getting anywhere to pursue such a conversation. 

I understand that it can be difficult to make changes in law or society - especially, the larger the community.  Don't get me wrong, I do NOT appreciate having certain rule imposed upon me; however, I try to find ways in which I can accept and live in harmony without proclaiming that the government is some alien entity that is separated from my human interests.  Personally, if I were to pick one thing that irritates me the most about government is NOT the concept of taxes, but instead it is the fact that money has too much influenced government and those with a lot of money are NOT paying their fair share of taxes.  Accordingly, regular people have to pay more taxes b/c of the money corruption  that has infiltrated into the most recent government(s)... worse in the past 20 years or so.

You as a citizen have a role in government, and you have a choice in where to live. 

Government is not Other people ganging up on you - even though frequently, it may seem as if an individual cannot do much to change the society in which s/he lives, but government is NOT the same as a thief. 

I have already made my point several times that a person asserting that the government is the same as a thief is failing to recognize complexity.. and chooses to simplify to the point of losing the point.. and if you keep repeating it over and over that government is the same it is the same, that does NOT prove any point.  Accordingly, there is NOT much use of continuing such a conversation in which I am saying that government is different from a thief.. and you (and others) are saying that government is the same as a thief.. We are NOT getting anywhere... and probably, it does NOT matter too much to the subject of this thread or the original point that was being made, which I believe was involving Mt. Gox taking BTC from customers.

I prefer NOT to get into drawn out discussion about the role of government, and/or the extent to which there is a consensual nature to being governed or being a part of a society. 

Nonetheless, I am suggesting that equating individualized theft (or being robbed by a corporation or being defrauded) with taxation will cause considerable oversimplification about the differing concepts and differing dynamics. 

Viewing taxation as theft (or as an involuntary taking) is bringing the wrong framework b/c questions about taxation are a lot more complicated than theft  or other categories of involuntary takings.  For example, you mention the size of the gang... and this seems to be fuzzy logic to view government as a gang.. .. as if you are being ganged up upon and that government is something apart from one's self... even though there remain tensions between community and self, theft is different.

I agree with some of your conclusions about bitcoin leaders need to set good examples, and surely the community of bitcoin leaders is evolving.   

Nonetheless, I think you are over simplifying and potentially misleading if you try to equate these various bitcoin personalities, b/c they each have their particular circumstances  in which they are NOT equals. 

Shrem was likely set up by the US Govt (harassment of sorts). 

Still do NOT know why Ver vouched for Mt. Gox.. that has NOT been explained, yet b/c we still do NOT know what is going on, exactly, with GOC. 

Two bit idiot has his own conflicting issues, and based on the current evidence, there is NO way that we can be sure that he is acting in betrayal or bad faith in having had pulled back from his earlier threat to publish insider information regarding potential shenanigans of foundation members.

Taxation and theft are of two different categories...

Also, I would NOT categorize taxation as an involuntary taking.... ... even though there are some difficulties in electing within which society (community) and set up that we want to live.  The role of government tends to be a complicated topic... and such topic has been especially inflammatory from time to time....

Oh yeah, and theft within the government can be quite complicated as well.... yet mostly different from the kinds of thefts going on in bitcoin circles.

Yes, could answer questions concerning whether GOX is lying, which could impact individual account holders and could impact the bitcoin supply and could impact public impression of bitcoin and security related issues.. or fears.

That is one strange and anti-climactic release.   

Initially, he said that he had goods, and he is saying that he still has goods, but releasing the goods will likely NOT cause the effect of the resignation of two bitcoin foundation members.  Therefore, he is going to regroup and get back to his life....

And, really he does NOT disclose whether he will get back to releasing anything at any point in the near future, which causes me to believe that this issue is dead... at least for a few weeks - though TwoBit has made himself out as a bit of an admitted drama queen... so he may be back, sooner than we otherwise expected with this theme of bitcoin foundation corruption.

there is already a  plan for that.. convert to dollars and offer dollars.. if he does not want then donate to his charity and then if he does not name a charity, then it goes to MOI.... me...

I'm seeing dinosaurs, too.....   or maybe train cars being assembled in the form of a carrousel?  Kind of like a circus.

I do NOT claim to know very much about how one exchange may differ from another or the way that a bot may work based on the way it interfaces with the exchange.  However, couldn't some of the explanation of differences be based on how bots may need to be programmed differently based on the exchange rules, fees and maybe based on times of greater or lesser volatility?  

But, yes, I can understand why you may consider certain patterns to infer that the trades may NOT really be taking place b/c they do NOT make sense to be occurring under those circumstances... even if it were due to the programing parameters of bots... that are paying nearly zero fees.

Yeah, worst case scenario of news could cause a dramatic decrease in prices, but 70%, seems doubtful.  Maybe we may get another flash crash into the upper $400s, but even that seems questionable, if we do NOT even know the DAMNING news.



Maybe you are correct, and maybe, just maybe, 2bit is ONLY an attention whore....   I kind of doubt that.  There may be some there, there?  It seems that we cannot know for sure (or condemn 2bit), until we see the presentation of the DAMNING evidence.


Certainly, I like specifics... and thanks for that.  You are suggesting an immediate negative reaction to the 2 bit news, but we will be over it by Friday.  I tend to think that we can make 800 by friday, only if there is NOT any kind of negative reaction to the news.  If we get a negative reaction, like you predict (down to 480), then we could NOT make anymore than upper $600s by Friday... I'm kind of pulling this out of my ass, too... 

NOW>>>> if we could just get up to $666 again...  Maybe that could be the new poll question, even though the old one has NOT been met and the time has NOT run, yet?  I am inclined to think we will NOT quite make it to $666 today.. but maybe tomorrow or Monday.. even though we still seem to have the Monday (two bit) news looming over us...

That's crazy.... but thanks for the good intentions.... I guess