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3241  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Anti-Bitcoin bill -- Please tell N.C. to vote no! (x-post: Bitcoin Discussion) on: May 20, 2015, 01:29:35 AM
Seems to me it would be ridiculous to regulate every money transmitter in the state except bitcoin businesses. Whether or not money transmitters should be regulated is one issue. Asking to exempt bitcoin because "the IRS says it's not money" is an entirely different issue, and one that makes little sense.

3242  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Woman Attempts To Smuggle 8-Year-Old African Boy Into Spain In Suitcase!!! on: May 20, 2015, 12:53:27 AM
The way to simplify the immigration process, other than background checks, is to have incoming signs at border posts that relay that no entitlement services will be available upon entrance and then only the productive will be on the procession rolls.

It's a popular narrative that immigrants just emigrate to get fat on unemployment in a rich country, but it's hardly true. They emigrate for opportunity that doesn't exist in their country. You're more likely to get someone who is going to work his ass off because he knows what true poverty is than many of the entitled folks living "in poverty" already in the west who'd rather not take a job that's "below them."
3243  Other / Politics & Society / Re: American Commandos Kill Senior ISIS Leader on: May 19, 2015, 06:42:58 PM
BEIRUT (AP) -- In a rare ground attack deep into Syria, U.S. Army commandos killed a man described as the Islamic State's head of oil operations, captured his wife and rescued a woman whom American officials said was enslaved.

A team of Delta Force commandos slipped across the border from Iraq under cover of darkness Saturday aboard Black Hawk helicopters and V-22 Osprey aircraft, according to a U.S. defense official knowledgeable about details of the raid. The official was not authorized to discuss the operation publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity.

The Americans intended to capture a militant identified by U.S. officials as Abu Sayyaf. When they arrived at his location, a multi-story building, they met stiff resistance, the U.S. official said, and a firefight ensued, resulting in bullet-hole damage to the U.S. aircraft.

Abu Sayyaf was killed, along with an estimated dozen IS fighters, U.S. officials said. No American was killed or wounded.

Before the sun had risen, the commandos flew back to Iraq where Abu Sayyaf's wife, Umm Sayyaf, was being questioned in U.S. custody, officials said. The goal was to gain intelligence about IS operations and any information about hostages, including American citizens, who were held by the group, according to Bernadette Meehan, spokeswoman for the U.S. National Security Council.

More...http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_SYRIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-05-16-08-39-42

That's a nice one. Can america and NATO just destroy ISIS? Coz ISIS is an obvious evil. Same way they destroyed Saddam's regime and Gaddafi's regime? Or they just don't want to?



Conventional military might means very little when you can't reliably identify the enemy and distinguish them from civilians. That was the US's main problem with the Viet Cong too in the Vietnam war. Guerilla warfare is effective against armies who feel the need to minimize civilian deaths. When ISIS fights out in the open, they are routinely routed by superior technology and firepower. When they can pick and choose battles and blend in with the surroundings, they're formiddable exactly because the US won't go in and level an area due to collateral damage concerns.
3244  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Self-Driving Trucks Are Going to Hit Us Like a Human-Driven Truck on: May 19, 2015, 06:26:53 PM
Autonomous vehicles are going to lay waste to employment of drivers very soon. As more and more jobs are eliminated by automation we are left with higher unemployment. If humanity doesn't evolve to the point where jobs are no longer a necessity for survival, we will soon find ourselves with a largely underemployed population with no means to support itself and no alternative plan to address this trend.

This is really the truth. I don't think necessarily that automation is a bad thing; in fact it's been very beneficial. But I do wonder if there's a point where the detriments overcome the benefits. There has to be a point where the displacement of so many workers drags the economy down, and where they cannot simply be reallocated to other sectors of the economy, either for lack of specific skills or lack of utility (in that there just isn't a need for so many workers anymore). That latter scenario is what is truly frightening.
3245  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Je suis fini: Charlie Hebdo cartoonist announces retirement on: May 19, 2015, 06:21:37 PM
I don't blame him to be honest, but retiring doesn't mean he's letting the terrorists win. What is he expected to do? Draw Mohammed for the rest of his life or until he gets killed by one of them?

He is the only cartoonist to survive the Charlie Hebdo massacre. It might be very difficult for him to continue with Charlie Hebdo. I think he want to put everything behind him and move on with something else. We should respect and support his decision. Anyway... I just hope that the Islamic State will leave him alone.

Cuz if there was any group that would ever let bygones be bygones, it's ISIS. Unfortunately, I think this guy will be a target for the rest of his life.
3246  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 07:33:12 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.

I would agree that ambiguous definitions are not the best. But that is what we have. If one doesn't like the definitions of his particular religion, perhaps he should change the name of it to something that is less ambiguous. For example. Tis not "atheism," but rather tis "atheism - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." However, rather a long "word," right?

Smiley

There's no need to change the word. Atheism means something very specific: belief in the nonexistence of god. There are no other attributes to atheism. That's why it's not a religion. Because atheism is not associated with anything else you said. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs about the creation of superhuman agency. Atheism does NOT involve devotional or ritual observances. Atheism does NOT contain a moral governing code. All those things that apply to religion do NOT apply to atheism.

Atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of god. FULL STOP.

That's precisely why atheism is a religion. There is no proof that God does not exist. There is ample evidence that could be attributed to the existence of God. Atheism as a belief is just that, a belief. It is not fact. And it is not very close to fact. Yet there are many people who hold to their belief in atheism very strongly. It is a bare-bones religion

At best, atheism is a philosophy.

Smiley

Atheism is a belief, nothing more. It lacks every attribute of religion except for a belief in something. You're focusing on the one thing it has to the exclusion of all the things it doesn't. It's still not a religion, the same way that trigonometry is not a religion. Trigonometry has a lot more in common with religion than atheism does (such as rules for orienting knowledge, belief in irrefutable truths and concepts, etc.), but it's not a religion either.

If a person had never heard of trigonometry, then picked up a book that briefly talked about trig, he might be a believer in a religious sense, because he saw how trig could exist, yet had very little personal experience with it After the person learned trig and used it, he wouldn't have to be a believer, because then he knew about trig.

Any strong atheist who is a believer without knowing that atheism is full of holes regarding its truth, is really religious in his belief. If he knew about the holes, he might come away from strong belief in atheism, and atheism might become a philosophy to him.

Smiley

You're conflating "beliefs" and "religion." Religion is built around beliefs. Beliefs are not religions. Your understanding of religion would necessitate the acceptance that every individual belief in the world is a separate religion. People who believe aliens crashed in Area 51: religion. People who believe in chemtrails: religion. People who believe Obama is a Muslim: religion. People who believe the fluoridation of water is a conspiracy to control the populace: religion.

None of these things are religions because beliefs are not religions.

Wrong. They are not religion when they don't fit the dictionary definitions of the word "religion." When they do, they are.

Smiley

There is no difference between the belief in the nonexistence of god and the belief in any of the things I just listed. They're all just beliefs. Since none of them fit the dictionary definition, none of them are religions.

Somebody who knows about Islam or Christianity, and from these believes that God exists, but doesn't follow any of the formal religions devotedly, but rather, simply says that he believes in God, and then goes on with his daily life without considering the finer aspects of either religion, he probably is not a religious person regarding these religions.

It has to do with the extent or devotion.

Some folks in this forum adamantly proclaim that they are atheists and that Christians or Muslims are nut jobs. These people seem pretty devoted to atheism. Perhaps it is a religion for them while not for others.

Smiley

I would agree with this, but the distinction is that you're assigning the label of religion to their behavior, not their belief. There are no prescribed behaviors associated with atheism, only the one belief, so to the extent any atheist displays any patterns you associate with a religious fervency, it is coincidental to their belief, not caused by it, because being atheist doesn't necessitate any behaviors with regards to any religion or its adherents.

Are you calling the activists who claim they are atheists trolls?

Smiley

No, my post addresses your misconceptions exclusively. How did you possibly misconstrue what I wrote to be something it has absolutely nothing to do with?

Never mind, that's what the last 20 posts have been...
3247  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 07:20:50 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.

I would agree that ambiguous definitions are not the best. But that is what we have. If one doesn't like the definitions of his particular religion, perhaps he should change the name of it to something that is less ambiguous. For example. Tis not "atheism," but rather tis "atheism - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." However, rather a long "word," right?

Smiley

There's no need to change the word. Atheism means something very specific: belief in the nonexistence of god. There are no other attributes to atheism. That's why it's not a religion. Because atheism is not associated with anything else you said. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs about the creation of superhuman agency. Atheism does NOT involve devotional or ritual observances. Atheism does NOT contain a moral governing code. All those things that apply to religion do NOT apply to atheism.

Atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of god. FULL STOP.

That's precisely why atheism is a religion. There is no proof that God does not exist. There is ample evidence that could be attributed to the existence of God. Atheism as a belief is just that, a belief. It is not fact. And it is not very close to fact. Yet there are many people who hold to their belief in atheism very strongly. It is a bare-bones religion

At best, atheism is a philosophy.

Smiley

Atheism is a belief, nothing more. It lacks every attribute of religion except for a belief in something. You're focusing on the one thing it has to the exclusion of all the things it doesn't. It's still not a religion, the same way that trigonometry is not a religion. Trigonometry has a lot more in common with religion than atheism does (such as rules for orienting knowledge, belief in irrefutable truths and concepts, etc.), but it's not a religion either.

If a person had never heard of trigonometry, then picked up a book that briefly talked about trig, he might be a believer in a religious sense, because he saw how trig could exist, yet had very little personal experience with it After the person learned trig and used it, he wouldn't have to be a believer, because then he knew about trig.

Any strong atheist who is a believer without knowing that atheism is full of holes regarding its truth, is really religious in his belief. If he knew about the holes, he might come away from strong belief in atheism, and atheism might become a philosophy to him.

Smiley

You're conflating "beliefs" and "religion." Religion is built around beliefs. Beliefs are not religions. Your understanding of religion would necessitate the acceptance that every individual belief in the world is a separate religion. People who believe aliens crashed in Area 51: religion. People who believe in chemtrails: religion. People who believe Obama is a Muslim: religion. People who believe the fluoridation of water is a conspiracy to control the populace: religion.

None of these things are religions because beliefs are not religions.

Wrong. They are not religion when they don't fit the dictionary definitions of the word "religion." When they do, they are.

Smiley

There is no difference between the belief in the nonexistence of god and the belief in any of the things I just listed. They're all just beliefs. Since none of them fit the dictionary definition, none of them are religions.

Somebody who knows about Islam or Christianity, and from these believes that God exists, but doesn't follow any of the formal religions devotedly, but rather, simply says that he believes in God, and then goes on with his daily life without considering the finer aspects of either religion, he probably is not a religious person regarding these religions.

It has to do with the extent or devotion.

Some folks in this forum adamantly proclaim that they are atheists and that Christians or Muslims are nut jobs. These people seem pretty devoted to atheism. Perhaps it is a religion for them while not for others.

Smiley

I would agree with this, but the distinction is that you're assigning the label of religion to their behavior, not their belief. There are no prescribed behaviors associated with atheism, only the one belief, so to the extent any atheist displays any patterns you associate with a religious fervency, it is coincidental to their belief, not caused by it, because being atheist doesn't necessitate any behaviors with regards to any religion or its adherents.
3248  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:53:37 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.

I would agree that ambiguous definitions are not the best. But that is what we have. If one doesn't like the definitions of his particular religion, perhaps he should change the name of it to something that is less ambiguous. For example. Tis not "atheism," but rather tis "atheism - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." However, rather a long "word," right?

Smiley

There's no need to change the word. Atheism means something very specific: belief in the nonexistence of god. There are no other attributes to atheism. That's why it's not a religion. Because atheism is not associated with anything else you said. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs about the creation of superhuman agency. Atheism does NOT involve devotional or ritual observances. Atheism does NOT contain a moral governing code. All those things that apply to religion do NOT apply to atheism.

Atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of god. FULL STOP.

That's precisely why atheism is a religion. There is no proof that God does not exist. There is ample evidence that could be attributed to the existence of God. Atheism as a belief is just that, a belief. It is not fact. And it is not very close to fact. Yet there are many people who hold to their belief in atheism very strongly. It is a bare-bones religion

At best, atheism is a philosophy.

Smiley

Atheism is a belief, nothing more. It lacks every attribute of religion except for a belief in something. You're focusing on the one thing it has to the exclusion of all the things it doesn't. It's still not a religion, the same way that trigonometry is not a religion. Trigonometry has a lot more in common with religion than atheism does (such as rules for orienting knowledge, belief in irrefutable truths and concepts, etc.), but it's not a religion either.

If a person had never heard of trigonometry, then picked up a book that briefly talked about trig, he might be a believer in a religious sense, because he saw how trig could exist, yet had very little personal experience with it After the person learned trig and used it, he wouldn't have to be a believer, because then he knew about trig.

Any strong atheist who is a believer without knowing that atheism is full of holes regarding its truth, is really religious in his belief. If he knew about the holes, he might come away from strong belief in atheism, and atheism might become a philosophy to him.

Smiley

You're conflating "beliefs" and "religion." Religion is built around beliefs. Beliefs are not religions. Your understanding of religion would necessitate the acceptance that every individual belief in the world is a separate religion. People who believe aliens crashed in Area 51: religion. People who believe in chemtrails: religion. People who believe Obama is a Muslim: religion. People who believe the fluoridation of water is a conspiracy to control the populace: religion.

None of these things are religions because beliefs are not religions.

Wrong. They are not religion when they don't fit the dictionary definitions of the word "religion." When they do, they are.

Smiley

There is no difference between the belief in the nonexistence of god and the belief in any of the things I just listed. They're all just beliefs. Since none of them fit the dictionary definition, none of them are religions.
3249  Other / Politics & Society / Re: UN leaked report: French raped African children aged 8-15 when they asked food! on: May 16, 2015, 06:51:28 PM

This is something. Rape for food scandal have been going for a long time by UN peacekeepers and it should be stopped.

Yes. It is time to stop such. But how? Whoever has the strength to stop the U.N. from doing its evil, is simply someone who will do greater evil sometime, right?

We look for the return of Jesus. Then the evil will be stopped by One Who is righteous, and Who has the power to control everything.

Smiley

By the statements you just made, god has the power to stop the UN so he will clearly do greater evil, right?

And if Jesus has the power to stop evil upon his return, but takes his sweet time coming back, then the evil that happens in his absence is partly his fault, no?

If God stops the U.N., He will do it in righteousness. Chances are that the divil will stop the U.N. if people don't do it first.

Again, God only does righteousness. If there is fault in Jesus taking his time, then the fault is ours, not His.

Smiley

On the one hand it seems awfully convenient. On the other hand, Christians sure do shoulder a lot of blame then for the non-return of Jesus.
3250  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.

I would agree that ambiguous definitions are not the best. But that is what we have. If one doesn't like the definitions of his particular religion, perhaps he should change the name of it to something that is less ambiguous. For example. Tis not "atheism," but rather tis "atheism - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." However, rather a long "word," right?

Smiley

There's no need to change the word. Atheism means something very specific: belief in the nonexistence of god. There are no other attributes to atheism. That's why it's not a religion. Because atheism is not associated with anything else you said. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs about the creation of superhuman agency. Atheism does NOT involve devotional or ritual observances. Atheism does NOT contain a moral governing code. All those things that apply to religion do NOT apply to atheism.

Atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of god. FULL STOP.

That's precisely why atheism is a religion. There is no proof that God does not exist. There is ample evidence that could be attributed to the existence of God. Atheism as a belief is just that, a belief. It is not fact. And it is not very close to fact. Yet there are many people who hold to their belief in atheism very strongly. It is a bare-bones religion

At best, atheism is a philosophy.

Smiley

Atheism is a belief, nothing more. It lacks every attribute of religion except for a belief in something. You're focusing on the one thing it has to the exclusion of all the things it doesn't. It's still not a religion, the same way that trigonometry is not a religion. Trigonometry has a lot more in common with religion than atheism does (such as rules for orienting knowledge, belief in irrefutable truths and concepts, etc.), but it's not a religion either.

If a person had never heard of trigonometry, then picked up a book that briefly talked about trig, he might be a believer in a religious sense, because he saw how trig could exist, yet had very little personal experience with it After the person learned trig and used it, he wouldn't have to be a believer, because then he knew about trig.

Any strong atheist who is a believer without knowing that atheism is full of holes regarding its truth, is really religious in his belief. If he knew about the holes, he might come away from strong belief in atheism, and atheism might become a philosophy to him.

Smiley

You're conflating "beliefs" and "religion." Religion is built around beliefs. Beliefs are not religions. Your understanding of religion would necessitate the acceptance that every individual belief in the world is a separate religion. People who believe aliens crashed in Area 51: religion. People who believe in chemtrails: religion. People who believe Obama is a Muslim: religion. People who believe the fluoridation of water is a conspiracy to control the populace: religion.

None of these things are religions because beliefs are not religions.
3251  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:38:15 PM
If omnipotence is to be: limitless, all powerful, unlimited.

Then we can argue that omnipotence as a concept, does not exist. A better attribute would be "very powerful", but claiming anything or anyone to be "all powerful" is illogical.

In the bible, god is not omnipotent, he is rather "very powerful". He is limited by constraints such as his inability to sin. The bible's view on omnipotence is incorrect.

Then there's the matter that an "omnipotent" deity should be able to do theoretically anything, even outside the boundaries of logic and math. But by definition, an omnipotent deity cannot be omnipotent, showing the invalidity of the concept, "omnipotence" (The "stone so heavy he can't lift it" paradox in omnipotence is valid).

Omnipotence implies that an omnipotent entity can place constraints upon himself such that it is both omnipotent and non-omnipotent simultaneously.  If omnipotence is the defining characteristic, then adding constraints via that omnipotence in no way changes its identity.

Omnipotence paradoxes are necessarily self-resolving.

That's a good point. But, wouldn't adding constraints "via that omnipotence" end the omnipotence of that deity? An example would be where a initially omnipotent deity decides to end it's omnipotence via it's omnipotence. Therefore the end result would be that said deity would no longer be omnipotent or that it actually never had omnipotence in the first place, and was rather "very powerful".

No.  Omnipotence is the defining characteristic of an Intelligent Designer.  In other words, omnipotence (i.e. a total lack of constraint) is the only characteristic which would distinguish an ID's identity as separate from any number of constrained forms it could take (e.g. a Flying Spaghetti Monster that is also omnipotent).  Accordingly, any constraints invoked via that omnipotence constitute topological changes only, and do not in any way change the fundamental nature of its identity.

Then such Intelligent Designer is not omnipotent. If it's defining characteristic is omnipotence, then by definition it should be able to change or render even it's own omnipotence obsolete(Therefore it wouldn't be able to ever be omnipotent again). In either outcomes it means the Intelligent Designer never had omnipotence. Even if said Intelligent Designer made it possible to be both "omnipotent" and "non-omnipotent", it still wouldn't be omnipotent as it added a constraint to itself(non-omnipotence).

Incorrect, it would still be omnipotent.  You're making an incredibly common (holy shit is it common) but incredibly subtle (holy shit is it subtle) mistake.  The resolution comes from an understanding of logical structure.

Logic is self-referential.  Logic says, "sound logic is sound because sound logic says so."

Let's look at that self-relational statement and break it down:

"Sound logic (subject) is sound (object) because [the subject] says so."

What we have here is a relational statement whereby the subject has the capacity to objectify something else.  This means that logic operates at two levels, and this interplay is present at all times in every rational statement that can possibly be made.

First, we have the 'syntax' level of the subject, and the 'object' level of the object.  The syntax level is objective and absolute relative to the object-level, but the object level is only relative to the syntax level.

I'll try to model this with an example:
-  First. imagine that you have a thought.  This thought is merely a mental object.
-  Second, you have a thought about that thought, "I had a thought about an apple."  Here, you are using logical syntax to describe a logical object.
-  Third, you have another thought about the thought you just had, "I was thinking about a thought about an apple."  Note what happens here -- the thought of the apple, which was originally at the syntax or descriptive level, was just thrust down into the object level, and now it, too, is being objectified and described by another syntax-level thought.

This is why remaining logically consistent with paradoxes is so hard.  You need to be very careful about the way that the things you attempt to describe shift between these levels as you describe them.  

The point of this is that every time you find an apparently irreconcilable contradiction with the idea of omnipotence, you can always reintroduce omnipotence at the syntax level as an objective descriptor.  

More generally, the point of this is to highlight that "absolute" and "omnipotent" are still inherently relational to something else, and could be isomorphically limited by higher levels of syntax such that they are both absolute and relative, omnipotent and constrained, etc. at the same time.

Unrelated, but have you studied philosophy? The way you break things down suggests you might have.
3252  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.

I would agree that ambiguous definitions are not the best. But that is what we have. If one doesn't like the definitions of his particular religion, perhaps he should change the name of it to something that is less ambiguous. For example. Tis not "atheism," but rather tis "atheism - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." However, rather a long "word," right?

Smiley

There's no need to change the word. Atheism means something very specific: belief in the nonexistence of god. There are no other attributes to atheism. That's why it's not a religion. Because atheism is not associated with anything else you said. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs about the creation of superhuman agency. Atheism does NOT involve devotional or ritual observances. Atheism does NOT contain a moral governing code. All those things that apply to religion do NOT apply to atheism.

Atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of god. FULL STOP.

That's precisely why atheism is a religion. There is no proof that God does not exist. There is ample evidence that could be attributed to the existence of God. Atheism as a belief is just that, a belief. It is not fact. And it is not very close to fact. Yet there are many people who hold to their belief in atheism very strongly. It is a bare-bones religion

At best, atheism is a philosophy.

Smiley

Atheism is a belief, nothing more. It lacks every attribute of religion except for a belief in something. You're focusing on the one thing it has to the exclusion of all the things it doesn't. It's still not a religion, the same way that trigonometry is not a religion. Trigonometry has a lot more in common with religion than atheism does (such as rules for orienting knowledge, belief in irrefutable truths and concepts, etc.), but it's not a religion either.
3253  Other / Politics & Society / Re: UN leaked report: French raped African children aged 8-15 when they asked food! on: May 16, 2015, 06:20:34 PM

This is something. Rape for food scandal have been going for a long time by UN peacekeepers and it should be stopped.

Yes. It is time to stop such. But how? Whoever has the strength to stop the U.N. from doing its evil, is simply someone who will do greater evil sometime, right?

We look for the return of Jesus. Then the evil will be stopped by One Who is righteous, and Who has the power to control everything.

Smiley

By the statements you just made, god has the power to stop the UN so he will clearly do greater evil, right?

And if Jesus has the power to stop evil upon his return, but takes his sweet time coming back, then the evil that happens in his absence is partly his fault, no?
3254  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:17:38 PM
If omnipotence is to be: limitless, all powerful, unlimited.

Then we can argue that omnipotence as a concept, does not exist. A better attribute would be "very powerful", but claiming anything or anyone to be "all powerful" is illogical.

In the bible, god is not omnipotent, he is rather "very powerful". He is limited by constraints such as his inability to sin. The bible's view on omnipotence is incorrect.

Then there's the matter that an "omnipotent" deity should be able to do theoretically anything, even outside the boundaries of logic and math. But by definition, an omnipotent deity cannot be omnipotent, showing the invalidity of the concept, "omnipotence" (The "stone so heavy he can't lift it" paradox in omnipotence is valid).

Omnipotence implies that an omnipotent entity can place constraints upon itself such that it is both omnipotent and non-omnipotent simultaneously.  If omnipotence is the defining characteristic, then adding constraints via that omnipotence in no way changes its identity.

Omnipotence paradoxes are necessarily self-resolving.

I've never thought of this concept before, but it's interesting to me now. I don't see how omnipotence paradoxes can be self-resolving. If you are omnipotent, you have to have the power to constrain yourself. If you not, you can't be omnipotent. But if you can't over come a restraint, you also can't be omnipotent. Doesn't this invalidate the idea of omnipotence as a whole?

In the same vein, is god "unable" to sin in the bible, or is he just so "good" he doesn't sin? Also, I would probably dispute that god does not sin. There are plenty of stories of wretched behavior by god in the old testament.

No, omnipotence precludes this invalidation precisely because enabling contradictions or paradoxes to exist would necessarily be within the abilities of an omnipotent entity.  There is no reason why an omnipotent entity can't also be constrained; the constraints are topological and they could be removed.





Very interesting. The logic seems a bit circular. I'm gonna have to think about this one for a bit. Thanks for the clarification.
3255  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:16:32 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.

I would agree that ambiguous definitions are not the best. But that is what we have. If one doesn't like the definitions of his particular religion, perhaps he should change the name of it to something that is less ambiguous. For example. Tis not "atheism," but rather tis "atheism - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." However, rather a long "word," right?

Smiley

There's no need to change the word. Atheism means something very specific: belief in the nonexistence of god. There are no other attributes to atheism. That's why it's not a religion. Because atheism is not associated with anything else you said. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Atheism is NOT a set of beliefs about the creation of superhuman agency. Atheism does NOT involve devotional or ritual observances. Atheism does NOT contain a moral governing code. All those things that apply to religion do NOT apply to atheism.

Atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of god. FULL STOP.
3256  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 06:00:44 PM
If omnipotence is to be: limitless, all powerful, unlimited.

Then we can argue that omnipotence as a concept, does not exist. A better attribute would be "very powerful", but claiming anything or anyone to be "all powerful" is illogical.

In the bible, god is not omnipotent, he is rather "very powerful". He is limited by constraints such as his inability to sin. The bible's view on omnipotence is incorrect.

Then there's the matter that an "omnipotent" deity should be able to do theoretically anything, even outside the boundaries of logic and math. But by definition, an omnipotent deity cannot be omnipotent, showing the invalidity of the concept, "omnipotence" (The "stone so heavy he can't lift it" paradox in omnipotence is valid).

Omnipotence implies that an omnipotent entity can place constraints upon itself such that it is both omnipotent and non-omnipotent simultaneously.  If omnipotence is the defining characteristic, then adding constraints via that omnipotence in no way changes its identity.

Omnipotence paradoxes are necessarily self-resolving.

I've never thought of this concept before, but it's interesting to me now. I don't see how omnipotence paradoxes can be self-resolving. If you are omnipotent, you have to have the power to constrain yourself. If you not, you can't be omnipotent. But if you can't over come a restraint, you also can't be omnipotent. Doesn't this invalidate the idea of omnipotence as a whole?

In the same vein, is god "unable" to sin in the bible, or is he just so "good" he doesn't sin? Also, I would probably dispute that god does not sin. There are plenty of stories of wretched behavior by god in the old testament.
3257  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 05:44:38 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.

Who is judging atheism? If the shoe fits, wear it. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

...

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

...


What else might atheism be, other than philosophy, since God hasn't been disproved, and there are multitudes who believe strongly that God exists?

Let's look at the most relevant definition of religion, because you took the sixth most relevant definition and tried to use it to prove your point:

Definition 1: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Atheism has one belief: there is no god. It is not a set of beliefs on the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe. It does not subscribe to belief in superhuman agency, ritual observances, or a moral code by which to govern the conduct of human affairs. Definition 1 fails entirely.

As for the rest of the definitions, there are no moral codes, rituals, or a defining theory of beliefs that originate from atheism, because atheism is only the belief in the nonexistence of god. That's the beginning and the end of atheism. To the extent there are patterns you recognize from atheists, it is from something that might more closely resemble a "religion" (like secular humanism), but in all relevant applications of the the word religion, atheism doesn't fit. There is no underlying moral code with atheism. The moral compass comes from other schools of thought, like Natural Rights Philosophy or Secular Humanism, not from atheism. The confluence of these schools of thought with atheism are complimentary, but coincidental.
3258  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 16, 2015, 05:21:48 PM
Atheism is a religion because atheists don't know that God doesn't exist. They simply believe it.

Doesn't follow logically. If the only attribute of religion was believing in something that can't be known, it might be accurate, but that's hardly the only attribute to religion. However, it's the only metric by which you're judging atheism.
3259  Other / Politics & Society / Re: ISIS impregnates 9-year-old girl on: May 16, 2015, 01:32:06 PM
...
For sure your four border states are not going to vote weed legal, because of the horrific power it'd give the Mexican cartels to move right into the USA.  But all power to DC, Colorado, etc...

Can I question that? It seems to me that if one of those states legalized pot, the primary loser would be the Mexican cartels. The illegal status of MJ is essential for their survival. If I were a drug lord I would donate millions to any candidate that will fight to keep MJ illegal. It would be a disaster if people could grow their own.

Okay, let me translate that.  Lower PRICES for weed would be a proportional loss for the cartels.

But aren't we seeing, not lower but higher prices?  That's what I read at least about legal weed in Colorado.  

And believe me, you do not want these cartel gangsters positioning themselves at the borders of say, Texas and Arizona....this has nothing to do with weed being legal or illegal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration (2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.[79] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.[80][81]


No, there is near universal agreement that the black market is what elevates price. It was true with alcohol prohibition and it's the same with drugs. The illegality makes it profitable for those who are willing to take the risk, or have the firepower to be untouchable.

It is not the illegality, but the level of enforcement of those laws which creates high prices.

For example I once say a whole row of tables - maybe 25 - right across the street from the courthouse in Capestown, S Africa.  I asked one of the guys selling weed - "Dakka" was it legal.  He laughed and said "Oh, no, man.  But the police are busy with important things like murder and rape.  They don't care."

This would not have been a case where the "fact of illegality" affected price.  Or maybe just to the degree that some payoffs were involved.

Tomato, tomahto. It's the same difference. The point is prohibition gives cartels their power. They lose power and the incentive for violence when it's legal, the same way bootleggers did when prohibition ended. As for whether legalization increases or decreases price could go either way. Legalization could increase demand to the point where the price is higher than it was when it's illegal. I couldn't care less about this, market price has no bearing on whether it should be legal.
3260  Other / Politics & Society / Re: palestine & Israel? What do you think about that situation? on: May 16, 2015, 01:21:26 PM
the land doesn't belong to Israel.


Yes it does. They were attacked and beat their attackers and took the spoils of war.
c'est la vie...

There is a related question I've brought up more than once:

Is Breslau occupied by the Poles?

There are consequences to losing wars.

But I do think I understand the position of many of those who say that the "West Bank" is Palestinian land occupied by Israel but Breslau is not German land occupied by Poland. Many people believe in some concept of "international law" which means that these kinds of questions are answered by certain "international bodies" (often offshoots of the United Nations). So the West Bank is occupied because certain "international bodies" say so, and Breslau isn't occupied because there aren't "international bodies" who say it is. I find this to be a scary way to look at the world, outsourcing one's judgement to "international bodies" -- but many people find it more comfortable than thinking things through for themselves.

I don't know enough about Breslau to have a qualified opinion. What are the circumstances that would lead you to question its status as occupied or not? Does Germany contest the land? Does the civilian population express a German identity rather than Polish?

Apparently not. It's Poland's 4th biggest city, it doesn't have a significant German minority and people living there have no interest in becoming a part of Germany.

If we discuss moving the borders and giving everyone back what was taken we'll face a big problem: the restoration point (date).
Your example - Poland fits here perfectly because in 1939 a large part of today's Ukraine and Belarus belonged to them, so you'd have to give back to the Germans but take from someone else.



I'm just trying to understand why anyone would ask if it's occupied. If no one is even seriously questioning it's status, the analogy JJ tried to draw between Breslau and Palestine isn't valid. Perhaps then the reason no international body has deemed Breslau occupied territory is because there's no basis for it because nobody is disputing the territory today.
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