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3241  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Remove "generate bitcoins" from standard client? on: March 23, 2011, 07:34:38 PM
How do you define professional vs amateur in regards to bitcoin mining at this point and in the future? You could explain it in rigs or hash per second or eficiency or acountability or whatever works for you

People who are mining for profit.
Then I'd say you mean by "professional" something else than most people. I mine for profit, but I certainly am not a professional miner. As long as mining can be done at home, scalable professional mining will have less profit margin than amateurs who leverage existing infrastructure.

Maybe as a business sounds better than for profit.

existing infrastructure won't be more profitable if it comes down to electricity costs and your GPU gets x hashes for 1watt and the other guy who bought more efficient hardware gets x hashes for .7watts

I don't see how the amatures are going to beat the professionals unless they are using their parent's electricity etc and then they're not really winning just being subsidized, you get what I'm saying. Of course if you somehow get free or super cheap electricity another way then maybe but if you're putting that much effort in then I'd call you professional.
Electricity is far from being the only cost of mining. There's depreciation of hardware + interest on the capital to acquire it, rent for the physical location of the servers, making sure that physical location has a wide enough connection to the power grid (a typical apartment has much more room for mining rigs than electrical capacity to power them), salaries for technicians, insurance, "businessy" expenses like accounting and legal, and so on.
I'm not assuming an amateur has free electricity, but I am assuming they have existing hardware or at least a computer for which they buy a dedicated GPU, a place to put it, some extra electrical capacity, and are willing to put in some maintenance time as a hobby activity. I don't think even a x2 per-watt performance will allow professionals to compete, and they won't have that because they'll probably use the same GPU/dedicated hashing device as the amateur.
Don't get me wrong, mining probably will be dominated by professionals, because amateur mining is not scalable.
3242  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Remove "generate bitcoins" from standard client? on: March 23, 2011, 06:57:58 PM
How do you define professional vs amateur in regards to bitcoin mining at this point and in the future? You could explain it in rigs or hash per second or eficiency or acountability or whatever works for you

People who are mining for profit.
Then I'd say you mean by "professional" something else than most people. I mine for profit, but I certainly am not a professional miner. As long as mining can be done at home, scalable professional mining will have less profit margin than amateurs who leverage existing infrastructure.
3243  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Remove "generate bitcoins" from standard client? on: March 23, 2011, 04:52:25 PM
The thing I'm most worried about is that people will start mining just because they think they're helping the network, and this unprofitable mining will push more efficient and competent miners out of the market.
Could you explain this a bit further? I don't see how raising the difficulty is anything but a good thing. Also if people mining on their CPUs don't have a real chance of mining a coin, then I don't see how they will be any real negative influence on miners.


Yeah I'm lost too, seems it should either help or have no effect.
I don't know if that's what theymos had in mind, but there's the environment to worry about. Using power for an efficient miner that makes a real contribution to network security is one thing, but wasting it on CPU mining is another.
3244  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Remove "generate bitcoins" from standard client? on: March 23, 2011, 03:32:28 PM
QUoting holy-fire because he said it so well.
Thank you Smiley. But it will look better if you use the standard quoting format.

Not sure how to quote post to post... I can give it a try.
You don't need to use a forum feature for this, you can do it manually. You can use
Code:
[quote] or
[quote=Holy-Fire] or
[quote author=Holy-Fire link=topic=4786.msg70546#msg70546 date=1300887416]
and end with
[/quote]
Where the one that contains a link was copy-pasted from generating a quote in that thread.
3245  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Remove "generate bitcoins" from standard client? on: March 23, 2011, 02:10:30 PM
QUoting holy-fire because he said it so well.
Thank you Smiley. But it will look better if you use the standard quoting format.
3246  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: when will I start getting bitcoins on: March 23, 2011, 01:36:56 PM
I agree with dsg and stonetz. To summarize the required changes to the site:
 - Remove the suggestion to turn on bitcoin generation.
 - Remove the estimates for the time taken by a CPU to generate a block. They will always be outdated and it's useless information (as Jim said, it already takes several years instead of what's on the site).
 - Emphasize that generation is done on a GPU by a separate software.
 - Add discussion of trading and references for possible places (Forum/Marketplace, otc, mtgox, Coincard+Coinpal...). Especially shops and organizations who consider accepting Bitcoin need information on easy ways to exchange them for fiat currency.

And, of course, the bitcoin generation should be removed from the client. It was nice for a while, but now it does little more than mislead.

Now, for the most important part - who should be contacted about all this? I'm guessing Gavin is one option. Are there any others in control of the site?
3247  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Pledge for DOSBox donations (87 BTC so far) on: March 23, 2011, 01:23:38 PM
How many BTC do you guys think we should collect before talking to DOSBox?
I think we already have enough for a very good chance of convincing them. I plan to contact them on Saturday. Keep the pledges coming until then! Having a greater pledge might encourage them to post their address in a more prominent place. Every little bit helps. Of course, they will surely also appreciate donations they receive afterward.

In the mean time, I'll submit for review the phrasing I intend to use (to be sent to the email address in the crew page).

Quote
Dear DOSBox crew,

Thank you for creating DOSBox, a source of great joy to appreciators of classic PC games everywhere.

I would like to interest you in starting to accept bitcoin donations. Bitcoin is an Open Source decentralized digital currency. Among other things, it allows easy transfers of money with no transaction fees. You can read more about Bitcoin at http://www.bitcoin.org/ .

The Bitcoin community has pledged to express their gratitude to you by donating X BTC (equivalent to roughly $Y USD). The funds have already been collected in a dedicated holding account, and we will transfer them to you as soon as you post a receiving address on your site. This, of course, is in addition to any additional bitcoin donations you may receive in the future.

If you find no other use for bitcoins, you can always sell them for USD in one of the bitcoin exchanges.

Getting started with Bitcoin is extremely easy. I will be happy to offer instructions as well as answer any questions you may have.

Thanks,
Holy-Fire [where "Holy-Fire" will be replaced by my meatspace name]
3248  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: when will I start getting bitcoins on: March 23, 2011, 01:11:32 PM
You seem to be admitting that the basic premis of bitcoins being generated by computer power is not worth using
Correct, mining with a CPU (as opposed to a GPU) is worthless, and solo mining on a CPU with the client (as opposed to with a pool on a dedicated mining program) is even more worthless.
and that's fine all I ask is don't promote this way.
We don't. We mention it as a technical implementation detail. If you tell us where you got the impression from, we can try to rephrase it in a less misleading way.
Where do the bitcoins exchanges get there bitcoins from?
The exchanges are just matchmakers, you trade with other people. Those people either mined when the network was small, mined them recently with a GPU, received them for goods and services or exchanged other currencies for them.
3249  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Hi I'm new, I have a few quick questions on: March 23, 2011, 12:55:54 PM
[Edit conflict]
Last question, I SWEAR LOL
No problems - keep 'em coming if you have them.

Well in that case!

I used the bitcoin calculator to find out on average that it will take me 50 days to generate my first block. What I'm wondering is, if I need to shut off my computer for whatever reason, do I have to start the fifty days all over again once I turn my computer back and start mining again?
No. You can safely shut down your computer and you only lose the time your computer could have been on. Mining is less progressing towards some goal and more drawing lottery tickets until you happen to hit the jackpot.

The downside of this is that the time to find blocks is very variable. It's possible you'll mine for months and not find anything. With your hashing rate I strongly suggest joining a pool (slush's, Tycho's, btcmine, ...)
3250  Economy / Economics / Re: Black Swan on MTGOX on: March 23, 2011, 12:35:40 PM
Hello I went to search for "My Black Swan" but that's obviously not what you mean. Are you talking about the old Slashdot article or something else?
I don't know about any Slashdot article, but I'm guessing Nefario was referring to Taleb's Black swan theory.
3251  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Pledge for DOSBox donations (47 BTC so far) on: March 23, 2011, 05:40:49 AM
Actually, I am going to pledge 40 BTC more; so 50 BTC from me in total.
That's great! Can you also send it to the collecting account? I want to be able to promise DOSBox "you have X BTC waiting for you" and honor it as soon as they post an address, rather than having to wait until everyone checks back for updates.
3252  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: New cheat-proof mining pool scoring method on: March 22, 2011, 08:50:35 PM
Not sure which method Slush's pool uses, but there if you submit few shares and then leave pool, your profit will be almost 0 by the end of the round. So it looks very similar to solution to the problem you describe here.
Of course I know all about (well, something about) the method slush uses, which is described here. He uses a share score that decays exponentially with the age of a share in units of time, with a decay factor for which he gave no motivation. It is best seen as a crude approximation to the method I present here. slush's method is cheat-resilient, but mine is cheat-proof.
3253  Bitcoin / Mining / Geometric method: New cheat-proof mining pool scoring method on: March 22, 2011, 08:28:49 PM
I would like to propose a new score-based payout method for mining pools. It was designed to resist pool-hopping, a form of cheating where a miner only participates at the beginning of a round, when his expected payout is too high compared to his efforts and contribution to the pool. This is of course at the expense of honest participants whose payouts will decrease. This cheat was discussed in this paper by Raulo.

I claim, and will later supply a proof as time permits, that this method is 100% immune to this attack. The expected payout per share submitted is always the same no matter when it was submitted. Note that this does not purport to resist any other type of attack.

The greatest disadvantage of this method - which is very mild in my opinion - is that it has the counter-intuitive property that the fee collected per block by the pool operator varies depending on the length of the round. In this sense it is a bit similar to the pay-per-share model (in fact, pay-per-share is a special case). It can be shown, under some very reasonable assumptions, that a variable fee must be introduced to make a scoring scheme cheat-proof without reducing it to solo mining.

I had originally planned to discuss this with slush before posting, but he is working on more important things now so I decided to go ahead.

I will first describe the method and then provide some analysis.

Choose parameters f and c, where f determines the fixed portion of the fee, and c determines the variable fee, or "score fee".
Let p = 1/difficulty be the probability that a share will solve a block.
Let r = 1-p+p/c be a decay factor.
When a participant submits a share, his score for the current round increases by r^i, where i is the number of shares already submitted at the time.
At the end of the round, when a block with reward B is found, each participant receives a payout of (1-f)*B*S*(r-1)/r^I, where S is the score accumulated by the participant in this round and I is the total number of shares submitted by all participants in this round. The rest is kept with the pool operator. For this discussion it is assumed that B is constant.

The intuition behind this payout is: The operator first takes a fixed cut of f from the block reward. He distributes the rest among all participants in proportion to their score, where he assigns himself a score of 1/(r-1) = c/(p-p*c) (which is equivalent to submitting infinitely many shares, in the beginning of the round, at the chosen decay rate).

It can be shown that the expected payout per share submitted is exactly (1-c)*(1-f)*p*B, no matter when the share was submitted. For solo mining this would have been p*B.
The fee collected by the operator varies and is less the longer the round is. The expected fee is (c+f-cf)*B per block.
The variance of a participant's payout, per share, is approximately (p*B)^2 / (2c+p). For solo mining this would have been p*B^2. This is a decrease of roughly (1+2c/p) times.
The variance of the operator's fee, per block, is approximately c*B^2/(2-c).

If the value c+f-cf (or roughly c+f), which is the average fee rate, is kept fixed while c increases and f decreases, the variance for the operator is increased and for participants it is decreased. By choosing c=0.001 and making up the rest of the fee with f, a reasonable variance can be achieved for both. As long as f is positive, the operator will never lose money on a round. If the operator chooses to absorb more variance in behalf of the participants, he can let f be negative and push c further, effectively adding his own money to the block reward, which will lead him to lose from especially long rounds. He can even choose f = (-c)/(1-c) and have an expected fee of 0.

In the limit c=0, only the winning share is rewarded and the participants are effectively mining solo (and paying for it, if f>0). In the limit c=1, with f being correspondingly highly negative, this reduces to pay-per-share (note that the approximate variances given above assume c and f are small and so don't apply for this case). c shouldn't be outside the range (0, 1).

If a participant has only a small part of the pool mining rate, the payouts of his submitted shares will be roughly uncorrelated, and his variance scales linearly with the number of shares (this is a good thing, as it means the standard deviation scales by its square root). As a participant's part approaches 100% of the pool rate, his shares will be adjacent and correlated, reducing to effectively mining solo.

I have not addressed in this description the case that the difficulty changes in the middle of the round, but this is solved with a simple tweak I will describe at a later time.

Comments and questions are welcome.

Updates:

Correctness proof outline:
Let K be the number of existing shares in the round when you submit a share. The reward you will receive for this share is a random variable which depends on I, the total number of shares at round end, which itself is a random variable at this point. The distribution of I, given that there are already K shares, is
Pr (I = i | I > K) = 0 if i <= K, p(1-p)^{i-K-1} if i > K
The reward for this share, as a proportion of the total reward distributed, in terms of I, is
$\frac{r^K}{\frac{1}{r-1}+\sum_{j=0}^{I-1}r^j}=(r-1)r^{K-I}$
So the expected reward is
$\sum_{i=K+1}^{\infty}p(1-p)^{i-K-1}(r-1)r^{K-i} = \frac{p(r-1)}{1-p} \sum_{i=K+1}^{\infty}((1-p)/r)^{i-K} = \frac{p(r-1)}{p+r-1} = p(1-c)$
Since the total reward distributed is (1-f)B, the expected payout is (1-f)(1-c)pB. This is independent of K, so the expected payout does not change when submitting the share early or late in the round.

As discussed later in the thread, implementing this scoring method requires using a logarithmic scale.

The exact procedure which also deals with difficulty changes is:
1. At the beginning of the round, calculate p = 1/difficulty and r = 1-p+p/c.
2. Assign the operator a score of 1/(r-1).
3. Initialize s=1, this will keep track of the score given for the next share.
4. When a user submits a share: Add s to his score, and let s=s*r.
5. If the difficulty changes to a new value so that 1/difficulty is now p2: Let s=s*p2/p and r=1-p2+p2/c (which is the same formula for r, now with the new p). Continue with step 4 for each submitted share henceforth.
6. When round ends, sum up all scores and divide the reward proportionally (this sum can be evaluated quickly using the formula for a geometric progression, keeping in mind that each difficulty change creates a new progression, but it's simpler to do a brute-force sum).
3254  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Cooperative mining (130Ghash/s) on: March 22, 2011, 04:46:20 PM
How?
Modify it for checking shares against full difficulty. Don't send full difficulty shares to server. (1-2 lines changed)
Oh. That. I am humbly reminded that not all problems can be solved by analyzing a stochastic process.
3255  Economy / Economics / Re: Labor costs and prices in an economy using bitcoin exclusively on: March 22, 2011, 04:38:07 PM

If wages stay flat due to productivity growth and people get used to slowly falling prices, that just leaves holders of large assets like homes that are priced in bitcoins to suffer a slow loss.


An interesting thought with a fixed number of bitcoin; Each coin represents 1/21millionths of the whole economy and as the economy grows the holder of 1 bitcoin still has claim to 1/21millionths of the larger economy. If a home is dropping in value (priced in bitcoin) then this just means it represents a smaller and smaller fraction of the total economy. So maybe it should fall in price.

Being worried about falling home prices may be just my old mindset coming from an era where homes were an investment. Seems silly. A home is a place to live, not an investment. Maybe in real life paying for a place to live does become cheaper with time as the economy grows.

(Of course you could never really buy the whole economy with 21M bitcoin. As you started to buy, prices would leap out of reach.)


This argument completely ignores divisibility.

Divisibility is irrelevant to the point ffe was making here. He could just as easily have said "the holder of 0.01 bitcoin has claim to 1/2.1Billion of the larger economy".
3256  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Cooperative mining (130Ghash/s) on: March 22, 2011, 04:32:47 PM
Correct. PPS is very vulnerable method and I don't plan to implement this. Everybody with few Ghash/s can bankrupt operator of PPS based pool in few weeks.
How?
I think slush is referring to the fact that with PPS, the variance for the operator is huge compared to the fees he collects. He can lose a lot of money with a few unlucky blocks, and with a high pool activity these can come very quickly. However, I don't think the problem is as great as slush describes. According to my calculations, and unless I'm missing something fundamental about the PPS model, the operator can make sure his probability of ever going bankrupt is less than u by keeping a reserve equivalent to ln(u)/(-2c) blocks, where c is the fee collected. For u=1/Million and c=0.1 this amounts to 3450 BTC.
3257  Economy / Economics / Re: Labor costs and prices in an economy using bitcoin exclusively on: March 22, 2011, 07:17:54 AM
By the way, if teaching workers to accept what they're given and no complaining allowed is your predisposition then fine.
It's not about "no complaining allowed". If an employee gets a wage which doesn't reflect his contribution and\or what he can earn elsewhere, he should complain and eventually switch jobs. It's about looking at the salary in real terms and dropping the "O noes the number which represents my salary is now lower" sentiment.
3258  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Pledge for DOSBox donations (22 BTC so far) on: March 22, 2011, 07:08:35 AM
I have created a MyBitcoin account to collect the pledges. Mahkul and I have access to it. Please send your pledges to address 12tBhckeLEuhg6BaJwEWQdt77bDFdpYZ1X, and let us know when you do.

If the attempt to convince DOSBox fails, we will return the money to those who wish so. Personally I will keep my pledge in until the next attempt.

Also, a few people have been generous enough to pledge a reward for those who get organizations to accept Bitcoin. Since this is a group effort and there is no one to collect the reward, I invite those people to add their pledges to this pool, which will increase the chances of success, even if they have no interest in DOSBox per se (which is, as I understand, what cw and SunAvatar did).
3259  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: "donate with bitcoin" button on: March 21, 2011, 08:40:45 PM
Just post an address where you can receive donations, and add a link to bitcoin.org. If the user can send bitcoins at all, he can do it with an address.
3260  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: I have an ecommerce site and I want to take bitcoin as a currency on: March 21, 2011, 08:35:39 PM
MyBitcoin offers such solutions.
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