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3281  Economy / Speculation / Re: What price do you think bitcoin will reach by 2020? on: August 30, 2017, 08:14:22 PM
What price do you think bitcoin will reach by 2020?
I personally think that bitcoin can reach $100.000 by 2020 but i think it's never going to go to $1.000.000!

I'd say 10k - 20k USD might be well within Bitcoin's grasp the next 4-5 years, but I don't think 100k USD are reachable anytime soon. Possibly in a couple decades when inflation has taken its course, but not within the foreseeable future.

However to allow for any significant, sustainable growth, Bitcoin still needs to get its house in order, ie. finally solve the scaling issue once and for all. Right now it seems like we're heading in the right direction, but that's not worth much until solutions such as lightning network are actually deployed.

Either way I don't think any of the currently existing alts will be able to supersede Bitcoin. Not as store of value, at least.
3282  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Passphrase protected seed words from trezor/ledger. on: August 30, 2017, 04:36:31 PM
If I store backup seed at friends house and it is secured by additional passphrase is this safe? I wonder what could happen if they do something stupid like make digital copy of seed or even post it on reddit. Is it to hard to brute force passphrase?

Trezor passphrases can be up to 50 ASCII characters in length, Ledger can handle up to 100 characters. Both of which should still protect your holdings short- to mid-term if you avoided using publicly available phrases such as song lyrics or literary quotes. However, you shouldn't be considering your wallet as safe anymore since once the seed has been compromised your wallet security will be taken down quite a notch. Otherwise why would go through to all the lengths of keeping the seed airgapped?

In short, if your seed gets public, you should consider your passphrase only as a temporary security measure that will buy you just enough time to move your coins to a new wallet. So if you don't trust your friend enough to not do anything stupid with your backup seed... find somewhere else to store it Wink
3283  Economy / Economics / Re: Next "dot-com bubble"? on: August 30, 2017, 03:14:29 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about the late 1990's being more idealistic and less greedy, but you pointed out an important factor: Deliberate scam attempts

Maybe, I should have said more patient

Look, now we see coins (Bitcoin and altcoins alike) making dozen percentages of growth weekly if not daily (giving a new meaning to the old adages like "from rags to riches" and "from zero to hero"), while people no longer want to wait for a couple of years until they see visible returns from their investments. Quite naturally, it looks more like they have become more greedy and want quick profits, which is quite understandable

Ah yes, that's true. Impatient is a very fitting description of the modern crypto investor.

Both traditional and crypto investors are greedy in wanting big profits, but crypto investors want them now while traditional investors are used to slower paced markets. To be fair, traditional markets are indeed quite boring compared to crypto, even during times of major growth and corrections.
3284  Economy / Economics / Re: Tokens Vs. Equity on: August 30, 2017, 02:18:41 PM
you are right. I'm saying that with regulations some ways to legally bind rights to tokens will appear, attracting even more people to crypto-funding new businesses.

Well it's not that ICOs couldn't give their tokenholders more rights, it's just that many don't choose to.

Apart from that, you're right. While not all crypto-enthusiasts are fans of regulation, there's probably a significant amount of people from the mainstream markets that would be willing to invest in ICOs if they had a stronger legal foundation. Assuming there are ICOs that would be willing to succumb to a regulatory framework Wink
3285  Economy / Economics / Re: Next "dot-com bubble"? on: August 30, 2017, 07:15:38 AM
Okay, ICO's look more like the dot-com era ventures

On the other hand (just playing devil's advocate here), many dotcoms back then might have actually tried to make it but failed in the end, while what we see today seems to be more like deliberate scam attempts. Indeed, there should have been dotcoms that had never meant anything real right from the start, but the percentage should be significantly lower back in the day than it is nowadays. In a sense, people were more idealistic in late 1990's early 2000's, both investors and entrepreneurs alike. Investors weren't as greedy and cynical as they are today while entrepreneurs weren't as fishy and scammy

I wouldn't be so sure about the late 1990's being more idealistic and less greedy, but you pointed out an important factor: Deliberate scam attempts.

During the dot-com bubble the problem has huge overvaluations of companies with little to show for. With ICOs you have more of the same, with the added risk of scams attempts. Usually the latter would get filtered out early by regulations and a market of more experienced investors, but with ICOs you have neither in place. But maybe that's just my cynicism talking.


There is a big difference between the dot-com bubble and altcoins. Back then most financial magazines,papers and investment companies were pushing the investment potential of these stocks and funds. The result was millions of funds pouring in but the companies themselves did not make any profits. Now the knowledge base is between those who are aware of the products and understand the reasons behind the project. Gullible investors are not being targeted by commission hungry salesmen in financial adverts.

Gullible investors may not be targeted by hungry salesmen anymore, but they are still targeted with meaningless whitepapers, buzzwords and cookie-cutter fancy websites. I also doubt that the knowledge base has gotten much better since back then. Sure, people probably spend more time reading up on each project, but that's of little use without understanding the surrounding market, the underlying technologies and subsequently the challenges to be faced. The result is still the same: millions of funds poured into projects that do not make any profits.
3286  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Using wind generated by miner fans to power tiny wind turbine? on: August 29, 2017, 05:45:06 PM
It's a fun idea, but I'm afraid the problem comes from the back pressure against the miner fan: To reach the same amount of cooling you'd probably have to run the fans at higher speeds, which means the additional energy necessary to run the fans would be higher than the energy that could be regained by the wind turbine. Placing the wind turbines far enough from the fans so that the back pressure doesn't matter would probably lead to the problem that the wind turbine is exposed to too little energy as to actually move.
3287  Economy / Reputation / Re: Legendary Memebers gone Bad!! on: August 29, 2017, 04:39:17 PM
Ok guys and Girls, lets start this thread. Post all the Legendary Members in this thread that have gone bad (negative trust) - also post the reference and the Story behind the negative trust. Don't post if you don't know or are not sure!

TradeFortress. Used to run CoinLenders and inputs.io back in 2013. The first was most likely a ponzi scheme, the second was to be used for off-chain transactions (I think either CoinLenders or some now defunct exchanges required inputs.io deposits at one point, not sure anymore). After a couple months both sites disappeared and the coins along with them. I can't recall if he actually bothered to claim to have been "hacked", but it was fairly obvious that he just took a run for it.
3288  Economy / Speculation / Re: Segwit helping BTC on: August 29, 2017, 04:23:19 PM
However I'm afraid that SegWit also won't help BTC in the long term, as 2nd layer solutions will be needed for that.

Lightning Network fits nicely in that category. I personally will not have any sort of use for LN, but I am sure others that are primarily focused on convenience and ultra low fees, will love it. I am a fairly simple user that is more interested in the store of value and decentralization aspect. I adapt to every situation - if I need to pay fees of 0.001BTC, I'll do it. If it's 0.002BTC, I'll do it too. But I fit in the minor group of users who think and operate like that. In that regard, I hope that the majority will get what they are looking for in LN. Low cost transactions is a massive selling feature after all.

Do we have a roadmap for LN? I've seen that the first tests have already been conducted on BTC testnet but didn't find any estimates on when the first mainnet transactions will be made.

I personally also am more interested in BTC as a digital store of value, however I love using BTC as a currency. Unfortunately with the current fee market that's hardly viable, so I'm really looking forward to LN and being able to use BTC like in the old days.
3289  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Trezor vs Ledger nano S. on: August 29, 2017, 04:10:38 PM
Trezor better UI and features.  Ledger more secure.

Is this your personal opinion, or is there a source to back this claim up? Personally, i like the ledger native UI better than trezor's, altough they offer similar functions. As for security: are there unpatched security flaws on the trezor???

All known security flaws with Trezor so far required physical access and were dealt with swiftly, with SatoshiLabs being transparent about both the flaws and how they were fixed. So unless there are any specific reports about unpatched security flaws I would be highly surprised if that were the case.

Does Ledger have any features that make securing it easier?
3290  Economy / Economics / Re: Tokens Vs. Equity on: August 29, 2017, 11:41:15 AM
it's not legally now, but will be in next few years
that will make crypto way to invest more popular than even now =)

I didn't mean legally binding as in legally recognized. I meant "not legally binding" as in ICO projects explicitly denying any legal rights to token holders in their terms of agreement. You're not guaranteed to actually be able to use these tokens, even if the ICO project turns out to be successful.
3291  Economy / Economics / Re: Next "dot-com bubble"? on: August 29, 2017, 10:26:23 AM
Might be handy to check stock charts of Google, Microsoft and others. They had their max not long before collapse of dot-com bubble. But, anyway who cares if they have their product now and then. The same case is with BTC and others, if they collapse I would not care much. We will make money anyway, new industry established.

Google wasn't even publicly traded yet, also the companies that prevailed such as Microsoft already had working products before the bubble Smiley

Check how Pets.com's stock went for a more apt comparison to the current ICO situation. With gambles like that the only way to make money is to either run an ICO yourself or knowing when to jump ship.
3292  Economy / Speculation / Re: Segwit helping BTC on: August 29, 2017, 07:20:30 AM
Nobody uses SegWit on Litecoin. It was just the hype around the "SegWit-News".

SegWit wont help BTC in the short term. it will need months until everybody uses SegWit (Like Wallets etc.).

I hope LTC will be obsolete one day, when BTC managed to scale.

Don't hate on BTC's little crypto brother! While I don't see many use cases for LTC that BTC doesn't already cover, it's an incredibly useful testbed. Also it's always good to have a backup Smiley

I agree with everything else you say though. However I'm afraid that SegWit also won't help BTC in the long term, as 2nd layer solutions will be needed for that.
3293  Economy / Speculation / Re: BTC Weekly Analysis: Will It Break $4500? on: August 29, 2017, 07:09:04 AM
I think we will see it. The trading volume is still low compared to previous ATH. Once the market warms up, we'll see some major market movements.
Yes, the current price of Bitcoin still around range $4000 is good signal for investor know Bitcoin has strong support at line $4,000. So, I can sure do not easy breakdown under $4,000 again until end this month. Smiley

It's quite amazing really. Not only did BTC reach an incredible ATH, it also has been able to linger close to that ATH for more than 2 weeks now. It's as stable as it has ever been and that on OKish volume. Short of catastrophic news, any downward correction will probably be a short-lived one, which makes for a very bullish market situation.
3294  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: HAVE you tried daily trading using SMA on: August 29, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
I remember a couple years back there was a group of traders surrounding Goomboo, who ran a trading journal over at the Speculation board. He had a very similar strategy based on EMAs. If I remember correctly it went fairly well... until it didn't. Or rather, while reducing some of the volatility, it failed to significantly outperform a simple buy and hold strategy. So yeah, trading using moving averages has been tried and tested but rarely been actually viable.
3295  Economy / Economics / Re: Tokens Vs. Equity on: August 28, 2017, 06:36:44 PM
The startups who are creating market places where they use their token for services, could in fact replace the means of investing in equity? The reason, while the business increases their customer base and profits, the token also increases in value. And with the token, you can liquidate anytime, unlike equity. The only value equity has now would be ownership. Unless you have a buyer who wants control of the company, I see it difficult to actually sell equity when the token is there. Let me know your thoughts. Cheers.

I don't get what you mean by equity not being as easy to liquidate as a token? Stocks can be easily traded. Or are you thinking of VC-style equity?

Also keep in mind that some people actually want to own part of the company and not just to be able to redeem a token for services rendered.


token buybacks works as dividends, but shareholders have some rights that tokenholders do not

If you look closely most tokens are not even legally binding. Many token holders don't have any rights at all. So shareholders having more rights than tokenholders is an understatement.
3296  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Where will be the next bitcoin-like bubble? on: August 28, 2017, 06:17:17 PM
Bitcoin could be in a speculative bubble right now but prices in the future might go much, much higher eventually. Think about it; 99% of humanity isn't active within the world of cryptocurrencies. Though the rise of Bitcoin (and market cap of crypto as a whole btw) is tremendous this year, it might get utterly dwarfed when crypto really gets picked up among the general public.

That's the thing, we're not even close to mainstream adoption and institutional investors. Sure, a lot of this potential is already priced in, but once the potential becomes reality (if it becomes reality) it will be like nothing we've ever seen before. Or rather, it will be exactly like the growth we've experienced before, just on a much grander scale.
3297  Economy / Economics / Re: Next "dot-com bubble"? on: August 28, 2017, 06:07:14 PM
In term of the size, the difference is too much so i guess this is not a bubble yet. Crypto is not like the overrated stock from the dot com bubble because it really can change how things work. If crypto is going to be a bubble, then surely it is not now.

Crypto in general will be fine, the ICO tokens are a different story. "It can really change how things work" is exactly what everyone else thought during the dot-com boom before the bubble burst.

Problem being, changing how things work requires 1) a problem worth solving 2) in a way that is actually viable 3) with an actual product that is more than just hypothetics and buzzwords.


Exchangers have been hacked already and everybody know that the part of ICOs is clear scam. I suppose for big crash it is necessary to prove that some big terracts were financing with crypto-currencies. Countries with high terroristic activity will ban bitcoin immediately.

Terror organizations such as the IS are still funded in fiat, not crypto. The terror acts themselves don't need much in terms of money, just willing fundamentalists.
3298  Economy / Speculation / Re: Segwit helping BTC on: August 28, 2017, 04:07:08 PM
Lightning Network will definitely assist Bitcoin's price, because then (hopefully) the scaling debate will be done with once and for all, as they road will be paved for a non-linear scaling solution that doesn't require any additional hardforks in the future.


Regarding bitcoin, stats show that only 1% of transactions are segwit, it's too complicated for users.
There's hardly any SegWit enabled wallets yet, only some that offer it as beta feature. That's why you see so few SegWit transactions. Once wallets use SegWit by default it won't be "too complicated" for users anymore. On the surface the only noticable change will be the changed address format, it's not like using Bitcoin turned into rocket science all of a sudden.


Or maybe the question isn't why LTC went from $4 to the moon, but why it went to $4 at all?
The long, long bear market will do this to a coin. Especially since next to nothing happened in LTC development until SegWit came along earlier this year.
3299  Economy / Economics / Re: Next "dot-com bubble"? on: August 28, 2017, 01:56:43 PM
But yes, once the ICO market corrects, crypto will be all the better for it. Just like the current exchange ecosystem rose from the ashes that were MtGox.

What it will take for ICOs to crash? Just... time. Most ICOs will fail to deliver. Of those that deliver, only few will be successful. And those few successful, will probably take much longer than many people are willing to hold.

Only time will tell really, and I think this will be healthy I guess so that we can really filter which ICO's are worthy to invest so that the money can really be channel to the one that will be successful and not just garbage ICO's around that just scam the unsuspected.

Yes, the smart move right now regarding ICOs is most likely to wait for the dust to settle and see which companies prevails. It also has the side effect that after these 2-3 years the market will be way less hyped and have saner price levels, which means you could actually get good value for your investment and not just a pump-and-dump lottery ticket.

There may be a diamond in the rough somewhere in this pile of semi-thought-out vaporware, but I honestly don't want to waste my time shifting through meaningless whitepapers that only aim to daze potential investors with buzzwords and crypto-babble. I'll gladly let the market filter out the companies that weren't worth looking into in the first place.
3300  Economy / Economics / Re: Next "dot-com bubble"? on: August 27, 2017, 11:38:39 PM
You are not wrong, particularly about the ICO craze. I'm pretty sure most will lose money on those, though perhaps one or two ICOs will be profitable.

What are your guys' thoughts if someone were to say "a crash is not all that bad"?

If a crytpo-crash occurred there could be a bunch of garbage tokens getting knocked out and then the benefiical tokens can emerge. Would it not be unlike the dot-com crash? Although there was some garbage and over-valued stocks in the late 1990s, there were some of today's leading companies in there as well that emerged. Apple and Microsoft existed in the late 90s.

Some garbage and over-valued stocks in the late 1990s? Most of them! The only noteworthy survivor of the dot-com bubble itself is probably Google. Amazon and especially Apple and Microsoft already existed way before the dot-com bubble reared its ugly face.

But yes, once the ICO market corrects, crypto will be all the better for it. Just like the current exchange ecosystem rose from the ashes that were MtGox.

What it will take for ICOs to crash? Just... time. Most ICOs will fail to deliver. Of those that deliver, only few will be successful. And those few successful, will probably take much longer than many people are willing to hold.
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